What makes you describe a piece of work as 'well finished'

[Seth]

Getting it right. If rolled borders, then exactly the same distance from the edge as it goes around the holster.

With hand stamped edges, it's tough. Smooth transitions around the curves, or find a design element to let you transition between lines.

Well finished is a three-way street, to me. Edges: I do NOT use inks. They are beveled (2 or 3), re-dyed, sanded (150-180), wet and burnished with old denim. Then, gum and a steel burnisher--probably twice.

I use Fiebings oil dye, dried, rubbed with lambs wool to remove dye dusting (kinda polishes too). After stitching, a coat of olive oil; dry overnight. A coat of Leather Balm or TanKote.

The most important thing? The first thing they see is the stitching because it's white. It has to flow. In fact, I always bring the thread from the back of the piece up to the right of the thread that went down from the face. At first glance they think it was machine stitched.

I DO believe that hand made items do need to look like roller stamped perfection. When somebody looks at a belt or holster and can ask the owner, "Hey, that's hand made, isn't it?," it's a good thing.

THE most important thing is: Good enough is NOT good enough.

Seth

[UKRay]

You made a heck of a lot of very good points, Seth. I really dislike seeing a creased border that wobbles around the place and those hand stamped edges that don't quite meet properly are irritating - but sometimes those things just happen when you are making something. Do you scrap the hours of work you have put into a job and walk away or do you try to salvage the work?

I'm interested in your comments about not using inks. I'm not altogether sure what you mean by 'inks' can you explain please - do you mean edge dye?

Like you I try to pay close attention to edges as they are the first bit a customer takes hold of. The trouble is that spending so much time on them isn't commercially sensible - or is it?

Stitching that is meant to be white should be white - couldn't agree more. How do you stop yours from getting grubby during the finishing process?

Roller stamped perfection eh? Man you'd be a hard guy to live with but I'd like to re-sell your stuff.

Cheers,

Ray

Getting it right. If rolled borders, then exactly the same distance from the edge as it goes around the holster.

With hand stamped edges, it's tough. Smooth transitions around the curves, or find a design element to let you transition between lines.

Well finished is a three-way street, to me. Edges: I do NOT use inks. They are beveled (2 or 3), re-dyed, sanded (150-180), wet and burnished with old denim. Then, gum and a steel burnisher--probably twice.

I use Fiebings oil dye, dried, rubbed with lambs wool to remove dye dusting (kinda polishes too). After stitching, a coat of olive oil; dry overnight. A coat of Leather Balm or TanKote.

The most important thing? The first thing they see is the stitching because it's white. It has to flow. In fact, I always bring the thread from the back of the piece up to the right of the thread that went down from the face. At first glance they think it was machine stitched.

I DO believe that hand made items do need to look like roller stamped perfection. When somebody looks at a belt or holster and can ask the owner, "Hey, that's hand made, isn't it?," it's a good thing.

THE most important thing is: Good enough is NOT good enough.

Seth

Edited May 8, 2009 by UKRay

[Seth]

One thing I have identified as a problem is rivets. I currently use hammered tubular rivets and wonder if there is a better looking solution. Tubular rivets always look cheap to me and tend to rust or discolour at the first opportunity.

Why don't use use rivets made from real brass and nickle plated brass? They don't cost that much more. It's a good seller too. "why are your bags so much more than that table over there?" "Well, ma'am, I use real brass and top quality materials." SOLD!--usually.

(I always use copper rivets and burrs since I am doing 18th Century stuff. Some other folks use the Tandy tubulars)

[UKRay]

Good point, Seth. Sadly solid brass and nickel plated brass rivets aren't freely available over here in the UK, or if they are, then will someone please tell me where to get them from!

I'd like to find a 'machine set' solid brass rivet - anyone know where they can be obtained or what sort of machine they need to set them?

Ray

Why don't use use rivets made from real brass and nickle plated brass? They don't cost that much more. It's a good seller too. "why are your bags so much more than that table over there?" "Well, ma'am, I use real brass and top quality materials." SOLD!--usually.

(I always use copper rivets and burrs since I am doing 18th Century stuff. Some other folks use the Tandy tubulars)

[hidepounder]

One thing I have identified as a problem is rivets. I currently use hammered tubular rivets and wonder if there is a better looking solution. Tubular rivets always look cheap to me and tend to rust or discolour at the first opportunity. I'd prefer to use a machine to set rivets but don't know what is available - or affordable. I'm also unsure how a machine would cope with rivets that need to be set in difficult places.

Ray...I'm not sure what all you are using rivets on, but if the rivet isn't taking a huge amount of strees, maybe a Double Cap Rivet would do the trick. They come in various finishes, plain and embossed. I don't know if they are strong enough for what you need, but they're easy to set, iexpensive and are less unsightly (to me, anyway). Another alternative are Chicago Screws.

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/home/de...ture=Product_95

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/home/de...ture=Product_14

Just a thought.......

Bob

[Seth]

Do you scrap the hours of work you have put into a job and walk away or do you try to salvage the work?

No, I'll do whatever I can to bring it into design. A lot of times a light pass with a modeling tool then re-stamping the thing straight will work.

I'm interested in your comments about not using inks. I'm not altogether sure what you mean by 'inks' can you explain please - do you mean edge dye?

Yes, what they call "sole and edge dressing." What I am finding is water based and just doesn't fill. I am terrified the person will sweat a little and water-based stuff will put a ring around his shirt. And, I do not want a high gloss, made in China or India look. Again, I am doing 18th Century stuff. I am not in California so I do not have the state telling me everything that is good for me. I hate the Eco product line.

There WAS a post I read earlier today that might be what you need. A U.S. company is importing an Italian edge dressing that most users are raving about. Gloss and matte. And, in colors. Search the forum.

Like you I try to pay close attention to edges as they are the first bit a customer takes hold of. The trouble is that spending so much time on them isn't commercially sensible - or is it?

No, not for commercial ventures like yours. A quick way I have found to burnish belt edges is with those Tandy round plastic wheels. Get a long machine screw 3/16" or so (oops, 5mm), a couple of washers and nut on the back. Put it on an electric drill and run it down the edge. It's rally good if you run a bar of beeswax quickly down the edge first. BUT, beeswax can mute the color just a touch. Make it a selling point though--they can feel the wax when you call their attention to it.

Stitching that is meant to be white should be white - couldn't agree more. How do you stop yours from getting grubby during the finishing process?

18th Century again. MOST leather was russet or just oiled. Stitching was white. Even black was rare. I will not do burgundy, cordovan, those yellowey browns, etc. No spots, conchos, etc., unless they want real brass or sterling and want to pay for it. Kind of uppity, huh?

Since I rub down the dry dye then oil it before stitching, there isn't much grubby to it. The Barbour's comes waxed and I wax it even more. Nothing really colors it. Another reason I don't dye afterwards--the stiching won't take dye and goes bollocks.

Roller stamped perfection eh?

Perhaps I stated it incorrectly. I do not want to look like perfect roller stamped. Noticeably hand made (or hand crafted if there's a machine involved) is good. I use the small Osborne rollers (about 3mm wide) but they are authentic to the period. I wish Osborne made something about twice as wide.

Seth

[celticleather]

Good point, Seth. Sadly solid brass and nickel plated brass rivets aren't freely available over here in the UK, or if they are, then will someone please tell me where to get them from!

Ray

Take a look at eBay Item No 360077316779 . . . not cheap, but brass is heading towards being a semi-precious metal these days!

Terry

[UKRay]

Bob, many thanks for the suggestion. I already use double cap rivets on most jobs and, as you say ,they are perfectly adequate. I'd simply like to change 'adequate' for 'special' even if the customer isn't aware of the difference - which throws up a whole load more questions about how far we should take this issue.

Without going down the 'edge finishing techniques' route, I'm generally pretty happy with the way I finish my edges and have a range of products that suit me well. The Italian stuff sounds worth exploring and I have already made several calls to Italy and Germany. I'll report back if I get any success.

Terry - what can I say? I placed an order and hope they live up to expectations. Mind you, I had to take out another mortgage to pay for the things!

Wonder who makes 'em?

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Ok, ya got me! Without beating a dead horse, I will try to keep it short. Back in the sixties, I was lucky enough to come onto the father of a sister-in-laws friend that made black power rifles, from scratch , the old fashioned way. While I was over at his home admiring the beauty of his work, he offered to help me do the same, at the time I was sporterizing old mauser 98 rifles, and black powder seemed to me to be the next logical step. Anyway, he told me that he would invest the time and effort to teach me, but; I had to agree to one rule of his. He said that he would show me how to make a piece and send me home to make it, and when I returned if it wasn't perfect, he would have me make it over, and I had to agree to do so without complaint, as many times as necessary to do it right. I agreed. The next time I came back with a piece he had sent me home to do, and he sent me home again to re-do it, I learned 2 things. 1) he wasn't joking! and 2) the value of doing it right the first time. Old Pete used to say that whatever it was you were making should look like it grew that way and all you did was reach up and pick it off of the tree. The valuable lessons I learned then have stuck with me through all the projects I have done since.

When I look at a piece of leatherwork I look at it the same way. That is what I look for in a well finished piece.

Attached is a pic of that rifle that I have been proud to use, and display on my mantle for over 40 years!

Bondo Bob

[Suze]

wow - nice Bob,

I have always used the rule that if a craft is an extention of "self" Why make "half" of an expresion?

as in don't do it half way and say "close counts" (I HATE that term with a passion - close counts only works in hand gernades, horseshoes and nukular warfare)

too many people do this and shrug and say well it was the best I could do - close counts

no it was not the best you could do or you wouldn't be saying that - the person who says that KNOWS that if they took a little more time and effort it would be much better.

[JamesR]

I think perfection in our work is something we shoot for but not something we attain.

To do really high class work we need to set very high standards.

The problem with only settling for perfection is that sometimes when we make a mistake we might want to throw out the whole piece and start again (sometimes we have no choice).

When I was younger making a mistake would really knock the wind out of my sails and I could not continue the piece. I learned from wiser folks then me that really skilled workers can correct thier mistakes and they will never be noticed.

Jim

[SteveBrambley]

Hi Ray,

Sorry, I only just spotted this thread.

I must agree 100% with everything that has been said so far. I am never absolutely satisfied with anything I make, I always feel that there is some way the thing could have been improved. Trouble is, I have to balance quality of finish with the time it takes to actually produce each item. Because, if I took as long as I would have liked, to achieve the finish I would have preferred, it would take far too long, and the price we would have to charge would knock us out of our market. It seems that nobody (well, hardly anybody) is prepared to pay for real quality these days. If I could spend a couple of days on a single item and be able to charge three or four times as much, that would be great, however, in the real world price seems to be all, at least in my experience. The main problem is that practicaly all our products go through at least two other hands before it reaches the end user, we obviously can charge a lot more by selling direct to 'Joe Public'. Trying to compete with our far eastern friends doesn't help either!

Your rivet question. I have always, mainly, used brass plated, steel bifurcated rivets and caps, set with a machine, like the two you saw when you came down earlier. They are strong, look reasonable and they are quick to fix in place, unfortunately, they seem unobtainable in solid brass. But then again, if they were solid brass, they would probably be prohibitively expensive!

Steve

Edited May 9, 2009 by SteveBrambley