Ground seat construction

[Steve Brewer]

amen

[tnestes]

I agree, Dale Harwood is likely one of the best, but there are many at the top of that list and they don't all use tin seat strainers. Each "top" saddlemaker does things his/her own way for his/her own reasons borne of long experience - things like rubber cement or contact cement for skirt linings? Machine stitching or two-needle handstitching? Tool the seat housing/cantle binding/horn cap on or off the saddle? Cut saddle pieces dry, or wet/case them first? And - metal or all-leather seat strainers?

It's insulting to many long-time outstanding saddlemakers to imply that only lesser saddlemakers would use all-leather strainers (because "The BEST makers use seat tins/strainers."). Thus my query "How do you define "best"?" Do the BEST have saddlemaking videos and so you've heard of them? (Yep, video saddlemakers tend to use metal seat strainers). If you haven't ever heard of someone, does that make them less than the best? Does not using metal strainers by definition make one less than the best?

Debating the pros and cons of seat strainer construction is really useful, but implying that there's only one right way to construct a ground seat isn't so useful.

Regards,

Julia

Been busy in the shop, and thus a while since I've been online.

For your information, and insinuation, I learned the finer points of saddlemaking in Steve Mecum's shop, not a video. He uses strainers.

[Alan Bell]

Ted, I haven't commented on this post just watched it progress. I have to say that your post sound a bit condescending and I am not sure if that is your intent. I have met a few of the saddle makers on here and I know a few of their reputations. Quite a few of them have spent considerable time with Dale and Steve and Chuck and Chas and Jeremiah etc. not just a couple of days or weeks. Unless I am mistaken you were the receipent of the TCAA scholarship and spent a week with Steve. Not to belittle your time with Steve, I personally know Steve and I know the quality of his work first hand but to state that you learned "the finer points of saddlemaking in Steve Mecum's shop" in a week, merely shows how much you have to learn. And using the metal strainer IS actually a short cut that saves you cutting another piece of leather and takes a little less time. That does not make it a BAD thing just a different thing. And you are wrong not all the saddle makers in the TCAA use metal strainers. I have posted mis information on these forums and have had to correct myself before and have been corrected by others on here. I have also received personal messages from some telling me how my stance was coming across. There is so much to learn about saddle making and I make an honest effort at letting my ego go and not feeling defensive about my position because it closes me off to being receptive to suggestions. I know that you state on your website that you want to continue to learn and grow as a saddle maker but your post on this topic seem to contradict that. I have never made an all leather ground seat but I am willing to try just to see if I like it better as a maker AND to expand my knowledge and craft. I really respect the saddle makers in the TCAA and will be attending a carving seminar by Rick Bean and Chuck Stormes this Feb to try and improve in that area. Maybe I will see you at that and we can visit about things there too. I also try and make it to the exhibition and sale every year so we may meet at that. This year some saddle makers got together to visit about trees and David Morgan (Dennis Lane's System) was there as was Jon Watsabaugh and Troy West from this forum. Nice discussions and Jon had some trees he's made to look at and critique. I hope you take this in the spirit it was written in and someday we may get together to visit too.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

[tnestes]

Ted, I haven't commented on this post just watched it progress. I have to say that your post sound a bit condescending and I am not sure if that is your intent. I have met a few of the saddle makers on here and I know a few of their reputations. Quite a few of them have spent considerable time with Dale and Steve and Chuck and Chas and Jeremiah etc. not just a couple of days or weeks. Unless I am mistaken you were the receipent of the TCAA scholarship and spent a week with Steve. Not to belittle your time with Steve, I personally know Steve and I know the quality of his work first hand but to state that you learned "the finer points of saddlemaking in Steve Mecum's shop" in a week, merely shows how much you have to learn. And using the metal strainer IS actually a short cut that saves you cutting another piece of leather and takes a little less time. That does not make it a BAD thing just a different thing. And you are wrong not all the saddle makers in the TCAA use metal strainers. I have posted mis information on these forums and have had to correct myself before and have been corrected by others on here. I have also received personal messages from some telling me how my stance was coming across. There is so much to learn about saddle making and I make an honest effort at letting my ego go and not feeling defensive about my position because it closes me off to being receptive to suggestions. I know that you state on your website that you want to continue to learn and grow as a saddle maker but your post on this topic seem to contradict that. I have never made an all leather ground seat but I am willing to try just to see if I like it better as a maker AND to expand my knowledge and craft. I really respect the saddle makers in the TCAA and will be attending a carving seminar by Rick Bean and Chuck Stormes this Feb to try and improve in that area. Maybe I will see you at that and we can visit about things there too. I also try and make it to the exhibition and sale every year so we may meet at that. This year some saddle makers got together to visit about trees and David Morgan (Dennis Lane's System) was there as was Jon Watsabaugh and Troy West from this forum. Nice discussions and Jon had some trees he's made to look at and critique. I hope you take this in the spirit it was written in and someday we may get together to visit too.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

Some individuals can learn more in one day with a guy like Steve than others can in a few months. Educated viewpoint- it's quality, not quantity that counts. As any thinking person would know, it's based on what you've done up to that point that dictates how much of the "finer points" can actually be learned, and the quality of it. I'm still applying what I learned from Mecum (a guy who I might add never speaks on such forums as this, maybe that states something?) - endless photos and endless notes, not from production videos. I had made many nice saddles before ever hooking up with Steve, so, yes, I DID learn a heckuva lot of finer points from him, and am still applying the lessons in my shop. I am not condescending, nor am contradicting what I state on my website. My goal is to make every saddle better than the last. Your statement about strainers being a shortcut is an opinion, your opinion. Reserve your judgment and show a little respect for others' ideas.

[RWB]

Some individuals can learn more in one day with a guy like Steve than others can in a few months. Educated viewpoint- it's quality, not quantity that counts. As any thinking person would know, it's based on what you've done up to that point that dictates how much of the "finer points" can actually be learned, and the quality of it. I'm still applying what I learned from Mecum (a guy who I might add never speaks on such forums as this, maybe that states something?) - endless photos and endless notes, not from production videos. I had made many nice saddles before ever hooking up with Steve, so, yes, I DID learn a heckuva lot of finer points from him, and am still applying the lessons in my shop. I am not condescending, nor am contradicting what I state on my website. My goal is to make every saddle better than the last. Your statement about strainers being a shortcut is an opinion, your opinion. Reserve your judgment and show a little respect for others' ideas.

Huh, well I guess it's a good thing that you are such a speedy learner. I might be out of luck, considering I had to spend about 5 years learning from Don Butler, and I still have the balls to admit I'm not the best.

C'mon man I'm sure we can all throw around who we learned from, and make people feel bad or insufficient if we all try to. But that's not what this forum is for. The purpose of this forum is to help people. We all have different ways of doing things, some of the people here are better than others, and some are just starting out. If we are going to get caught up in the things we do different, then nobody learns anything. Personally I use a seat strainer. Whoop dee freakin' do da. I've rode a bunch of saddles with seat strainers that would eat your butt off. I've also rode all leather seats that are the same way. Personally I think that a proficient saddle maker can put several different types of seats in and not have them sore a customer. Am I there? NO!!!!! Are we ALL constantly learning? YES!!!!!!!!!! Even those who have learned from some of the best in the business.

I went to Wichita Falls this past weekend for the first time, and learned stuff from guys I had never heard of before. Saddle makers and leatherworkers that most of us have never heard of, but they have that cool little trick that I was looking for. There is no point in ignoring that kind of information. Even if it wasn't Steve Mecum who came up with it. None of us are as good as we love to think of ourselves.

Ross Brunk

[Tosch]

Ted,

I admit it is a rare talent - but you got it down.

Some months ago after you had p.o. ed Greg Gomersall I stated "you have much to learn".

Some weeks ago you have done the same thing to a very nice lady saddle maker on this forum who has a very!!! steep learning curve as a new saddle maker, and as I " know" Alan - not only from this forum but from others as well, he is a very nice, helpfull and friendly person - you have successfully po.ed him , too, I guess,. Congrates, you did it again!

It is now as it was then : you have much to learn. And I am NOT talking about saddle making.

And if you ask again who I am, well, I am a guy who severly gets po.ed by such kind of behavior, I am a guy who does not know one saddle from the next, I am a guy who does not kow anything about saddle trees either - but I am a guy who was friends with one of the best lady saddle makers in the US, I am a guy who maybe helped passing along some information to one of the best tree maker as well as the above mentioned lady saddle maker, I am a guy who can put a telephone call through to Greg and other wellknown and respected members of this forum without having to worry that they hang up on me.....

Tosch

Edited October 7, 2009 by Tosch

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Ok, I guess that I may have unintentionally, stepped on a few toes, when I said that using a tin strainer was a short cut. Mostly what I said was not taken the way I meant it. Perhaps what I should have said is , that the dozen or so saddles that have come to me in my shop to be re-done because they were deamed uncomfortable by their owners, were, saddles with metal strainers. When I took them apart to rebuild them, it was evident that the maker was taking shortcuts to get the job done and the end result suffered from it, not just in the seat but also in many of the various different areas that, taking time to skive and fit properly result in a good saddle. I did not mean, that anyone that uses a tin strainer is making junk! When you talk about the likes of the many saddlemakers that are both known and unknown out there that take the time to build top saddles, they do not do that by cutting corners. If you are going to use a seat tin, and take the time to fully shape and contour it properly, you are not taking a short cut, it takes time and effort to achieve proper shape. On the other hand, the ones that I have removed and placed full leather ground seats in, were originally like sitting on a 8" wide board. These tins were simply tacked in place the way they came from the maker. That is a shortcut and does create an inferior product. I am sure that the guys you are mentioning by name, would never simply do that . As someone else said here, "If the seat is well done, it's well done...period". I agree with that, whole heartedly. As for me, I will continue to use the leather method, because it gives me the opportunity to shape and skive as I go, and finally, whenever possible, I have the owner come to the shop and sit the seat before I go on. That gives me a chance to do a final skive to be sure it is pleasing to the owner. That ain't no short cut, but; it does make sure that the results are perfect. That should be the results you are looking to acvhieve , if you aspire to have your name mentioned in the same breath as those that have gone before us.

Sorry if I hurt anbody's feelings!

Bondo Bob

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Bob,

fact is, a number of the well know saddlemakers out there use tins because they are quicker. People can call it a shortcut or whatever they want but people who are concerned about making a living need to find quicker ways to do things. Does this make it infereior? Obviously not in all cases... I don't believe the likes of Dale Harwood and Steve Mecum would use a tin to save time if they thought it was inferior to an all leather seat. I do believe that if they thought it was just as good as a leather seat that they would do it to save time. Perhaps it's a shortcut without the negative conotations attached to the word.

Another scenario is a saddlemaker who only ever learned how to put a seat tin in and has never had a reason to try otherwise. I learned to put a leather seat in and have never had a good reason to try putting a tin in, especially after seeing how they go in... I've seen Dale Harwood install one at a TCAA class and I've seen Jeremiah do it on his video. The drying time aside, I don't think a tin would be quicker for me and being a bit of a traditionalist, I prefer using the all leather seat for my own reasons. It really all comes down to what you believe in. If a tin breaks apart at the nail holes over the years or a leather seat sags over the years , the person riding that saddle and the person fixing those seats will be the final judges of our methods.

Darc

[steve mason]

Tosch, don't waste your time posting with this guy, doesn't seem like he is here to learn, only to tell us how he does things his way, which is the best way of course.

Never try to teach a pig to sing:

It just frustates you and it annoys the pig.

Ted,

I admit it is a rare talent - but you got it down.

Some months ago after you had p.o. ed Greg Gomersall I stated "you have much to learn".

Some weeks ago you have done the same thing to a very nice lady saddle maker on this forum who has a very!!! steep learning curve as a new saddle maker, and as I " know" Alan - not only from this forum but from others as well, he is a very nice, helpfull and friendly person - you have successfully po.ed him , too, I guess,. Congrates, you did it again!

It is now as it was then : you have much to learn. And I am NOT talking about saddle making.

And if you ask again who I am, well, I am a guy who severly gets po.ed by such kind of behavior, I am a guy who does not know one saddle from the next, I am a guy who does not kow anything about saddle trees either - but I am a guy who was friends with one of the best lady saddle makers in the US, I am a guy who maybe helped passing along some information to one of the best tree maker as well as the above mentioned lady saddle maker, I am a guy who can put a telephone call through to Greg and other wellknown and respected members of this forum without having to worry that they hang up on me.....

Tosch

Edited October 8, 2009 by steve mason

[steveh]

Just some observations I have made.

I buy old saddles at sales barns now and then and like to look at how they where constucted. F.E Meana plains style slick fork 8 button double rigged from the 1910's, has an all leather ground seat that is very sound, this saddle was well used as the latigo and off billet have worn thru the skirt leather. Miles City Coggshell swell fork, 8 button from the 1920's real bad condition but the all leather groundseat is outstanding , still has it rise and it did not break down, Otto Ernst swell fork 8 button from the 1920's, steel strainer sound ground seat. Point being that both these ground seat methods have been around all time and both have there merit.

Steve