Ground seat construction

[TroyWest]

I agree with Steve's comment also. Dale Harwood does use a metal strainer. Ray Holes used to use a 2 piece metal strainer. Chuck Stormes uses all leather ground seat. All are highly respected and use the method each prefers. I believe you can have success with any of these methods. You can also make a mess with any one of these.

[Tosch]

As Verlane once told me:

As a customer choose the ground seat construction method you like - then find a maker who can build it.

I guess, that says it all.

Tosch

[tnestes]

I agree, Dale Harwood is likely one of the best, but there are many at the top of that list and they don't all use tin seat strainers. Each "top" saddlemaker does things his/her own way for his/her own reasons borne of long experience - things like rubber cement or contact cement for skirt linings? Machine stitching or two-needle handstitching? Tool the seat housing/cantle binding/horn cap on or off the saddle? Cut saddle pieces dry, or wet/case them first? And - metal or all-leather seat strainers?

It's insulting to many long-time outstanding saddlemakers to imply that only lesser saddlemakers would use all-leather strainers (because "The BEST makers use seat tins/strainers."). Thus my query "How do you define "best"?" Do the BEST have saddlemaking videos and so you've heard of them? (Yep, video saddlemakers tend to use metal seat strainers). If you haven't ever heard of someone, does that make them less than the best? Does not using metal strainers by definition make one less than the best?

Debating the pros and cons of seat strainer construction is really useful, but implying that there's only one right way to construct a ground seat isn't so useful.

Regards,

Julia

The BEST? Well, TCAA members would be a good place to start. As far as I know, they all use strainers. "Insulting?" There's no need to be so easily offended. People who are confident people in what they are doing are not, (easily offended, that is). Furthermore, if you look for something to get irritated about, you'll find it quicker among saddlemakers than anywhere else, so I've found. I could have gotten offended when someone stated earlier that strainers are "short-cuts." I didn't, though. I guess it's because I know how to put it a very comfortable ground seat using a strainer. I have room for improvement, and I admit it. However, I WILL continue to use strainers. And yes, DALE HARWOOD IS, IN MY OPINION, THE BEST SADDLEMAKER EXTENT.

Regards,

Ted

[steve mason]

The BEST? Well, TCAA members would be a good place to start. As far as I know, they all use strainers. "Insulting?" There's no need to be so easily offended. People who are confident people in what they are doing are not, (easily offended, that is). Furthermore, if you look for something to get irritated about, you'll find it quicker among saddlemakers than anywhere else, so I've found. I could have gotten offended when someone stated earlier that strainers are "short-cuts." I didn't, though. I guess it's because I know how to put it a very comfortable ground seat using a strainer. I have room for improvement, and I admit it. However, I WILL continue to use strainers. And yes, DALE HARWOOD IS, IN MY OPINION, THE BEST SADDLEMAKER EXTENT.

Regards,

Ted

I have made both all leather and tin seats, I have been taught these methods from Matt Ebele and Chuck Stormes (who is in the TCAA) for all leather seats and from Dale Harwood(also in the TCAA) for tin seats. I can get very close to the same seat shape with either method, the tin seat will be a little lighter, but the leather seat has a better feel to it. Kind of like comparing standing on cement floor all day to standing on a wood floor as with a leather seat. Another benifit to a leather seat like Julie mentioned is the slight pole or rise down the center of the seat, I see to many ground seats that are dead flat across the points of the cantle, this feels like sitting on a chair with your legs hanging off the sides. Putting the slight pole or rise in the seat not only helps with the structural integrity of a leather seat it also helps very much with the comfort of the seat. A seat properly shaped in my shop you can drop water any where on the seat and it will run, not pool in the middle between your pin bones.

I have taken a page out of all my mentors books and made it my own, I use a little knowlege from each maker I have learned from, I do not do anything just because one maker I respect and admire does it that way, I do it because I believe that is it the best way to accomplish the job at hand. Try to stay open minded and learn for everyone possible.

I guess the main thing to consider with ground seats is it don't matter who does it with tin or leather, do what works for you, if tin works for you go for it, if leather works for you let er rip. they are both just different ways to skin the same cat, there is no right or wrong.

Remember that a good seat is a GOOD seat no matter if it is tin or leather and a bad seat is a BAD seat no matter tin or leather.

Steve

[tnestes]

I have made both all leather and tin seats, I have been taught these methods from Matt Ebele and Chuck Stormes (who is in the TCAA) for all leather seats and from Dale Harwood(also in the TCAA) for tin seats. I can get very close to the same seat shape with either method, the tin seat will be a little lighter, but the leather seat has a better feel to it. Kind of like comparing standing on cement floor all day to standing on a wood floor as with a leather seat. Another benifit to a leather seat like Julie mentioned is the slight pole or rise down the center of the seat, I see to many ground seats that are dead flat across the points of the cantle, this feels like sitting on a chair with your legs hanging off the sides. Putting the slight pole or rise in the seat not only helps with the structural integrity of a leather seat it also helps very much with the comfort of the seat. A seat properly shaped in my shop you can drop water any where on the seat and it will run, not pool in the middle between your pin bones.

I have taken a page out of all my mentors books and made it my own, I use a little knowlege from each maker I have learned from, I do not do anything just because one maker I respect and admire does it that way, I do it because I believe that is it the best way to accomplish the job at hand. Try to stay open minded and learn for everyone possible.

I guess the main thing to consider with ground seats is it don't matter who does it with tin or leather, do what works for you, if tin works for you go for it, if leather works for you let er rip. they are both just different ways to skin the same cat, there is no right or wrong.

Remember that a good seat is a GOOD seat no matter if it is tin or leather and a bad seat is a BAD seat no matter tin or leather.

Steve

Exactly. If the seat is well done, it's well done...period.

[Steve Brewer]

amen

[tnestes]

I agree, Dale Harwood is likely one of the best, but there are many at the top of that list and they don't all use tin seat strainers. Each "top" saddlemaker does things his/her own way for his/her own reasons borne of long experience - things like rubber cement or contact cement for skirt linings? Machine stitching or two-needle handstitching? Tool the seat housing/cantle binding/horn cap on or off the saddle? Cut saddle pieces dry, or wet/case them first? And - metal or all-leather seat strainers?

It's insulting to many long-time outstanding saddlemakers to imply that only lesser saddlemakers would use all-leather strainers (because "The BEST makers use seat tins/strainers."). Thus my query "How do you define "best"?" Do the BEST have saddlemaking videos and so you've heard of them? (Yep, video saddlemakers tend to use metal seat strainers). If you haven't ever heard of someone, does that make them less than the best? Does not using metal strainers by definition make one less than the best?

Debating the pros and cons of seat strainer construction is really useful, but implying that there's only one right way to construct a ground seat isn't so useful.

Regards,

Julia

Been busy in the shop, and thus a while since I've been online.

For your information, and insinuation, I learned the finer points of saddlemaking in Steve Mecum's shop, not a video. He uses strainers.

[Alan Bell]

Ted, I haven't commented on this post just watched it progress. I have to say that your post sound a bit condescending and I am not sure if that is your intent. I have met a few of the saddle makers on here and I know a few of their reputations. Quite a few of them have spent considerable time with Dale and Steve and Chuck and Chas and Jeremiah etc. not just a couple of days or weeks. Unless I am mistaken you were the receipent of the TCAA scholarship and spent a week with Steve. Not to belittle your time with Steve, I personally know Steve and I know the quality of his work first hand but to state that you learned "the finer points of saddlemaking in Steve Mecum's shop" in a week, merely shows how much you have to learn. And using the metal strainer IS actually a short cut that saves you cutting another piece of leather and takes a little less time. That does not make it a BAD thing just a different thing. And you are wrong not all the saddle makers in the TCAA use metal strainers. I have posted mis information on these forums and have had to correct myself before and have been corrected by others on here. I have also received personal messages from some telling me how my stance was coming across. There is so much to learn about saddle making and I make an honest effort at letting my ego go and not feeling defensive about my position because it closes me off to being receptive to suggestions. I know that you state on your website that you want to continue to learn and grow as a saddle maker but your post on this topic seem to contradict that. I have never made an all leather ground seat but I am willing to try just to see if I like it better as a maker AND to expand my knowledge and craft. I really respect the saddle makers in the TCAA and will be attending a carving seminar by Rick Bean and Chuck Stormes this Feb to try and improve in that area. Maybe I will see you at that and we can visit about things there too. I also try and make it to the exhibition and sale every year so we may meet at that. This year some saddle makers got together to visit about trees and David Morgan (Dennis Lane's System) was there as was Jon Watsabaugh and Troy West from this forum. Nice discussions and Jon had some trees he's made to look at and critique. I hope you take this in the spirit it was written in and someday we may get together to visit too.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

[tnestes]

Ted, I haven't commented on this post just watched it progress. I have to say that your post sound a bit condescending and I am not sure if that is your intent. I have met a few of the saddle makers on here and I know a few of their reputations. Quite a few of them have spent considerable time with Dale and Steve and Chuck and Chas and Jeremiah etc. not just a couple of days or weeks. Unless I am mistaken you were the receipent of the TCAA scholarship and spent a week with Steve. Not to belittle your time with Steve, I personally know Steve and I know the quality of his work first hand but to state that you learned "the finer points of saddlemaking in Steve Mecum's shop" in a week, merely shows how much you have to learn. And using the metal strainer IS actually a short cut that saves you cutting another piece of leather and takes a little less time. That does not make it a BAD thing just a different thing. And you are wrong not all the saddle makers in the TCAA use metal strainers. I have posted mis information on these forums and have had to correct myself before and have been corrected by others on here. I have also received personal messages from some telling me how my stance was coming across. There is so much to learn about saddle making and I make an honest effort at letting my ego go and not feeling defensive about my position because it closes me off to being receptive to suggestions. I know that you state on your website that you want to continue to learn and grow as a saddle maker but your post on this topic seem to contradict that. I have never made an all leather ground seat but I am willing to try just to see if I like it better as a maker AND to expand my knowledge and craft. I really respect the saddle makers in the TCAA and will be attending a carving seminar by Rick Bean and Chuck Stormes this Feb to try and improve in that area. Maybe I will see you at that and we can visit about things there too. I also try and make it to the exhibition and sale every year so we may meet at that. This year some saddle makers got together to visit about trees and David Morgan (Dennis Lane's System) was there as was Jon Watsabaugh and Troy West from this forum. Nice discussions and Jon had some trees he's made to look at and critique. I hope you take this in the spirit it was written in and someday we may get together to visit too.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

Some individuals can learn more in one day with a guy like Steve than others can in a few months. Educated viewpoint- it's quality, not quantity that counts. As any thinking person would know, it's based on what you've done up to that point that dictates how much of the "finer points" can actually be learned, and the quality of it. I'm still applying what I learned from Mecum (a guy who I might add never speaks on such forums as this, maybe that states something?) - endless photos and endless notes, not from production videos. I had made many nice saddles before ever hooking up with Steve, so, yes, I DID learn a heckuva lot of finer points from him, and am still applying the lessons in my shop. I am not condescending, nor am contradicting what I state on my website. My goal is to make every saddle better than the last. Your statement about strainers being a shortcut is an opinion, your opinion. Reserve your judgment and show a little respect for others' ideas.

[RWB]

Some individuals can learn more in one day with a guy like Steve than others can in a few months. Educated viewpoint- it's quality, not quantity that counts. As any thinking person would know, it's based on what you've done up to that point that dictates how much of the "finer points" can actually be learned, and the quality of it. I'm still applying what I learned from Mecum (a guy who I might add never speaks on such forums as this, maybe that states something?) - endless photos and endless notes, not from production videos. I had made many nice saddles before ever hooking up with Steve, so, yes, I DID learn a heckuva lot of finer points from him, and am still applying the lessons in my shop. I am not condescending, nor am contradicting what I state on my website. My goal is to make every saddle better than the last. Your statement about strainers being a shortcut is an opinion, your opinion. Reserve your judgment and show a little respect for others' ideas.

Huh, well I guess it's a good thing that you are such a speedy learner. I might be out of luck, considering I had to spend about 5 years learning from Don Butler, and I still have the balls to admit I'm not the best.

C'mon man I'm sure we can all throw around who we learned from, and make people feel bad or insufficient if we all try to. But that's not what this forum is for. The purpose of this forum is to help people. We all have different ways of doing things, some of the people here are better than others, and some are just starting out. If we are going to get caught up in the things we do different, then nobody learns anything. Personally I use a seat strainer. Whoop dee freakin' do da. I've rode a bunch of saddles with seat strainers that would eat your butt off. I've also rode all leather seats that are the same way. Personally I think that a proficient saddle maker can put several different types of seats in and not have them sore a customer. Am I there? NO!!!!! Are we ALL constantly learning? YES!!!!!!!!!! Even those who have learned from some of the best in the business.

I went to Wichita Falls this past weekend for the first time, and learned stuff from guys I had never heard of before. Saddle makers and leatherworkers that most of us have never heard of, but they have that cool little trick that I was looking for. There is no point in ignoring that kind of information. Even if it wasn't Steve Mecum who came up with it. None of us are as good as we love to think of ourselves.

Ross Brunk

[Tosch]

Ted,

I admit it is a rare talent - but you got it down.

Some months ago after you had p.o. ed Greg Gomersall I stated "you have much to learn".

Some weeks ago you have done the same thing to a very nice lady saddle maker on this forum who has a very!!! steep learning curve as a new saddle maker, and as I " know" Alan - not only from this forum but from others as well, he is a very nice, helpfull and friendly person - you have successfully po.ed him , too, I guess,. Congrates, you did it again!

It is now as it was then : you have much to learn. And I am NOT talking about saddle making.

And if you ask again who I am, well, I am a guy who severly gets po.ed by such kind of behavior, I am a guy who does not know one saddle from the next, I am a guy who does not kow anything about saddle trees either - but I am a guy who was friends with one of the best lady saddle makers in the US, I am a guy who maybe helped passing along some information to one of the best tree maker as well as the above mentioned lady saddle maker, I am a guy who can put a telephone call through to Greg and other wellknown and respected members of this forum without having to worry that they hang up on me.....

Tosch

Edited October 7, 2009 by Tosch

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Ok, I guess that I may have unintentionally, stepped on a few toes, when I said that using a tin strainer was a short cut. Mostly what I said was not taken the way I meant it. Perhaps what I should have said is , that the dozen or so saddles that have come to me in my shop to be re-done because they were deamed uncomfortable by their owners, were, saddles with metal strainers. When I took them apart to rebuild them, it was evident that the maker was taking shortcuts to get the job done and the end result suffered from it, not just in the seat but also in many of the various different areas that, taking time to skive and fit properly result in a good saddle. I did not mean, that anyone that uses a tin strainer is making junk! When you talk about the likes of the many saddlemakers that are both known and unknown out there that take the time to build top saddles, they do not do that by cutting corners. If you are going to use a seat tin, and take the time to fully shape and contour it properly, you are not taking a short cut, it takes time and effort to achieve proper shape. On the other hand, the ones that I have removed and placed full leather ground seats in, were originally like sitting on a 8" wide board. These tins were simply tacked in place the way they came from the maker. That is a shortcut and does create an inferior product. I am sure that the guys you are mentioning by name, would never simply do that . As someone else said here, "If the seat is well done, it's well done...period". I agree with that, whole heartedly. As for me, I will continue to use the leather method, because it gives me the opportunity to shape and skive as I go, and finally, whenever possible, I have the owner come to the shop and sit the seat before I go on. That gives me a chance to do a final skive to be sure it is pleasing to the owner. That ain't no short cut, but; it does make sure that the results are perfect. That should be the results you are looking to acvhieve , if you aspire to have your name mentioned in the same breath as those that have gone before us.

Sorry if I hurt anbody's feelings!

Bondo Bob

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Bob,

fact is, a number of the well know saddlemakers out there use tins because they are quicker. People can call it a shortcut or whatever they want but people who are concerned about making a living need to find quicker ways to do things. Does this make it infereior? Obviously not in all cases... I don't believe the likes of Dale Harwood and Steve Mecum would use a tin to save time if they thought it was inferior to an all leather seat. I do believe that if they thought it was just as good as a leather seat that they would do it to save time. Perhaps it's a shortcut without the negative conotations attached to the word.

Another scenario is a saddlemaker who only ever learned how to put a seat tin in and has never had a reason to try otherwise. I learned to put a leather seat in and have never had a good reason to try putting a tin in, especially after seeing how they go in... I've seen Dale Harwood install one at a TCAA class and I've seen Jeremiah do it on his video. The drying time aside, I don't think a tin would be quicker for me and being a bit of a traditionalist, I prefer using the all leather seat for my own reasons. It really all comes down to what you believe in. If a tin breaks apart at the nail holes over the years or a leather seat sags over the years , the person riding that saddle and the person fixing those seats will be the final judges of our methods.

Darc

[steve mason]

Tosch, don't waste your time posting with this guy, doesn't seem like he is here to learn, only to tell us how he does things his way, which is the best way of course.

Never try to teach a pig to sing:

It just frustates you and it annoys the pig.

Ted,

I admit it is a rare talent - but you got it down.

Some months ago after you had p.o. ed Greg Gomersall I stated "you have much to learn".

Some weeks ago you have done the same thing to a very nice lady saddle maker on this forum who has a very!!! steep learning curve as a new saddle maker, and as I " know" Alan - not only from this forum but from others as well, he is a very nice, helpfull and friendly person - you have successfully po.ed him , too, I guess,. Congrates, you did it again!

It is now as it was then : you have much to learn. And I am NOT talking about saddle making.

And if you ask again who I am, well, I am a guy who severly gets po.ed by such kind of behavior, I am a guy who does not know one saddle from the next, I am a guy who does not kow anything about saddle trees either - but I am a guy who was friends with one of the best lady saddle makers in the US, I am a guy who maybe helped passing along some information to one of the best tree maker as well as the above mentioned lady saddle maker, I am a guy who can put a telephone call through to Greg and other wellknown and respected members of this forum without having to worry that they hang up on me.....

Tosch

Edited October 8, 2009 by steve mason

[steveh]

Just some observations I have made.

I buy old saddles at sales barns now and then and like to look at how they where constucted. F.E Meana plains style slick fork 8 button double rigged from the 1910's, has an all leather ground seat that is very sound, this saddle was well used as the latigo and off billet have worn thru the skirt leather. Miles City Coggshell swell fork, 8 button from the 1920's real bad condition but the all leather groundseat is outstanding , still has it rise and it did not break down, Otto Ernst swell fork 8 button from the 1920's, steel strainer sound ground seat. Point being that both these ground seat methods have been around all time and both have there merit.

Steve

[bruce johnson]

Just some observations I have made.

I buy old saddles at sales barns now and then and like to look at how they where constucted. F.E Meana plains style slick fork 8 button double rigged from the 1910's, has an all leather ground seat that is very sound, this saddle was well used as the latigo and off billet have worn thru the skirt leather. Miles City Coggshell swell fork, 8 button from the 1920's real bad condition but the all leather groundseat is outstanding , still has it rise and it did not break down, Otto Ernst swell fork 8 button from the 1920's, steel strainer sound ground seat. Point being that both these ground seat methods have been around all time and both have there merit.

Steve

Steve,

Thanks for that perspective, and I would bet that if Meana, Coggshell, and Ernst would have met in Sheridan, they'd have argued about groundseats back then too. When they got tired of that, they picked up on how trees ought to fit, and then switched over to what leather was the best. After they were done and the Mint (or whatever was there then) closed, one went north, one went south and one stayed in town. They weren't unanimous very much 90 years ago, but still we've all heard of them.

This thread has some age on it, and if you go back and read through it, you will find some different points of view today. The bottom line is that good and bad seats can be made with a strainer or without. Troy West said it, anybody want to argue with his track record? Steve Brewer agreed, and he has been described as "one of the best saddlemakers not enough people have heard of". Dale Harwood uses a strainer and Chuck Stormes uses all leather. I am not going to step up and tell any of them they are wrong. Look at some of the other good makers on this thread and forum and who they learned from. They aren't all doing it like they started out, or even like who they learned from later. It wasn't settled back then and won't be now, but it is good watching.

[CWR]

I noticed this thread got a little heated and I wanted to take the opportunity to say thank you to all of you who take the time to post on here. I'm not a saddle maker...yet, I'm trying to put my tools and skills together and get started soon. I have very little to offer Bruce, Steve Brewer, Steve Mason and many others on here, but I sure have learned alot from them. At this point in my life I can't afford to go to any of the trade shows, seminars or spend a week with a master so trial and error and this forum and the people who contribute to it are my only teachers. So thanks again guys for taking time out your day to help the ones who are trying to learn.

CW

[RWB]

Ok, I guess that I may have unintentionally, stepped on a few toes, when I said that using a tin strainer was a short cut. Mostly what I said was not taken the way I meant it. Perhaps what I should have said is , that the dozen or so saddles that have come to me in my shop to be re-done because they were deamed uncomfortable by their owners, were, saddles with metal strainers. When I took them apart to rebuild them, it was evident that the maker was taking shortcuts to get the job done and the end result suffered from it, not just in the seat but also in many of the various different areas that, taking time to skive and fit properly result in a good saddle. I did not mean, that anyone that uses a tin strainer is making junk! When you talk about the likes of the many saddlemakers that are both known and unknown out there that take the time to build top saddles, they do not do that by cutting corners. If you are going to use a seat tin, and take the time to fully shape and contour it properly, you are not taking a short cut, it takes time and effort to achieve proper shape. On the other hand, the ones that I have removed and placed full leather ground seats in, were originally like sitting on a 8" wide board. These tins were simply tacked in place the way they came from the maker. That is a shortcut and does create an inferior product. I am sure that the guys you are mentioning by name, would never simply do that . As someone else said here, "If the seat is well done, it's well done...period". I agree with that, whole heartedly. As for me, I will continue to use the leather method, because it gives me the opportunity to shape and skive as I go, and finally, whenever possible, I have the owner come to the shop and sit the seat before I go on. That gives me a chance to do a final skive to be sure it is pleasing to the owner. That ain't no short cut, but; it does make sure that the results are perfect. That should be the results you are looking to acvhieve , if you aspire to have your name mentioned in the same breath as those that have gone before us.

Sorry if I hurt anbody's feelings!

Bondo Bob

Bob,

You don't have to apologize for your comment. A tin strainer in a lot of ways is a shortcut. And we all use some sort of shortcut at some point. Some short cuts are great and some aren't. I use a strainer and like to do my seats that way, but you didn't offend me. In fact the only person you seem to offended is someone who likes to tell everyone that he is the best. Don't worry about your comment.

Ross Brunk

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Bob,

You don't have to apologize for your comment. A tin strainer in a lot of ways is a shortcut. And we all use some sort of shortcut at some point. Some short cuts are great and some aren't. I use a strainer and like to do my seats that way, but you didn't offend me. In fact the only person you seem to offended is someone who likes to tell everyone that he is the best. Don't worry about your comment.

Ross Brunk

Thank's Ross! At the end of the day, the most important thing is that the customer get's a good quality product that exceeds his/her needs. To that end , I try to learn from others and the makers that have preceeded me, and do what it is that the customer requires. I hope that each and every piece that I do, ends up being passed down in the family with pride. I try to keep track of my saddles and where they are. To date, I only know of 2 that have changed hands out of the original owners' family. To me that is the real test of ones' efforts. By the way, those 2 now have owners that come to me for additional work.

Bondo Bob

[jbird]

I know some of the best there is and it's a split some use tin some use all leather I my self think that there both a good way to go how about steve brewer chiming in he is one of those masters that can use either but does use all leather

Josh

[David Genadek]

I think the only real concern is the shape. Maybe in a very specific situation strainer versus all leather might have an advantage but in the end what makes a good ground seed is the shape. I have done them both ways and did find that all leather grounds seats allowed me more control over the shape than I had when I used a strainer. However,as I got busier and busier and needed to start hiring help the all leather ground seats became an issue. So now I use strainers but I do my groundwork entirely different than anything I had ever seen or was taught. I modify the strainer plate so that it allows me to create the same shape I would get with a leather ground seat. Now I can grab a guy off the street and by the end of the day have him doing a ground seat that anyone would be happy to ride in and it gets done in about a half hour.

Is using a strainer a shortcut ,sure what's wrong with shortcuts? Using a sewing machine is a shortcut. I remember when I was younger Bill Gomer brought a saddle to show and he had stitched it on a machine. Why, I was beside myself that he would have such nerve and I even told him he had sold his soul and if the craft were to exist we must maintain the highest level of excellence in the craft. Bill in his infinite wisdom sat this wet behind the ears kid down and explained the realities of the life I was entering into. Oh I argued all the points but then a few years down the road I was needing some help so Bill came and helped for a few weeks. Well of course he pointed out the number of sewing machines I now had in my shop and we had a good laugh. I will be forever grateful for the kind advice he gave me that day.

David Genadek

Edited October 8, 2009 by David Genadek

[CLH]

I think the only real concern is the shape. Maybe in a very specific situation strainer versus all leather might have an advantage but in the end what makes a good ground seed is the shape. I have done them both ways and did find that all leather grounds seats allowed me more control over the shape than I had when I used a strainer. However,as I got busier and busier and needed to start hiring help the all leather ground seats became an issue. So now I use strainers but I do my groundwork entirely different than anything I had ever seen or was taught. I modify the strainer plate so that it allows me to create the same shape I would get with a leather ground seat. Now I can grab a guy off the street and by the end of the day have him doing a ground seat that anyone would be happy to ride in and it gets done in about a half hour.

Is using a strainer a shortcut ,sure what's wrong with shortcuts? Using a sewing machine is a shortcut. I remember when I was younger Bill Gomer brought a saddle to show and he had stitched it on a machine. Why, I was beside myself that he would have such nerve and I even told him he had sold his soul and if the craft were to exist we must maintain the highest level of excellence in the craft. Bill in his infinite wisdom sat this wet behind the ears kid down and explained the realities of the life I was entering into. Oh I argued all the points but then a few years down the road I was needing some help so Bill came and helped for a few weeks. Well of course he pointed out the number of sewing machines I now had in my shop and we had a good laugh. I will be forever grateful for the kind advice he gave me that day.

David Genadek

Hello all,I guess the Cowboy Way is gone in one guy's eyes.Such a shame,one day maybe he'll grow up. Quien sabe?? I build a few saddles and have the luxuery to ride a lot of horses daily also. I think my prostier is slightly educated.I prefer a all leather ground seat for my personal saddles ,both work and show and the ones I build.They just fit me better. I build what I ride and sell the same.I use a Tennie Haws tree,I've 3 left,Leson style, 3" laid back cantle,they are sure nice. Now, that should start some conversation. I need to talk to Keith and try some of his trees.They should be the same. Any comments on trees ?Hell of a post in ground seats. Thanks. Any how, my thoughts, Clint Haverty

Edited October 9, 2009 by Denise

[Alan Bell]

I had this real nice (OK not so much) response all typed up but didn't post it. I had others read my post to see if I was coming across in a negative way. Granted they are all my friends but I hope they would be my friends and tell me honestly if I was wrong. This thread moved from a questions about techniques to one of character assessment and I helped steer it in that direction though I was trying not to. I guess it depends on how one views "short cuts" and who gets to decide who is the "Best". I will offer this one more notice to Ted; if everybody sees things one way but you see it differently, maybe just maybe, you might at some point consider that you may in some small fraction of a way be wrong! There I said it and I know it is off topic. On topic we all agree that a good seat is a good seat tin or all leather! And off topic to Ted I would still enjoy visiting with you anytime to discuss "the finer points"of saddle making.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

[Go2Tex]

Groundseats are like a lot of aspects of saddlemaking, the more you do it the more ways you figure out how to improve the process and that is true whether you choose tin or leather.

That is why there must be as many ways to make groundseats as there are makers building them. The more I learn about different methods, the less confident I am that I'm doing it the "best way", the most efficient way and the way that will please my customers and still be a good value.

Personally, I like the 2 piece tin with stirrup risers under it and enough leather on top of it to smooth it off and shape it the way I want it. It allows me to be flexible with the shape, it will flex somewhat but it won't break down even if the saddle gets totally soaked and used by a Sumo wrestler with really bad riding habbits. I tried the pre-made one piece tins and I've made leather seats. The 2 piece tin works the "best" for me as it combines the 2 methods.

As for creating the tunnel effect between the bars, if the tree fits the horse properly, the area between the bars should be high enough that there is no need for the seat tin or leather seat to be shaped in an arch except in the front where it goes over the withers. The tree bars and risers provide sufficient clearance in that area and the front tin piece is shaped with an arch over that area. If a heavy enough tin is used, it is quite strong and gives plenty of support over the stirrup slots and around the hand hole. This is the area that I believe is the weak point of the all leather groundseat, depending on how the slots and hand hole is designed, of course. I'm sure I'll get an argument about that point from the all-leather proponents and I welcome their thoughts.

As for which method is the easiest, I would have to say the all leather, since I make my own tins and then put just about as much leather on top and do a lot of carving and fussing for days to get it just right. So, for me, the all leather is a short-cut because I don't have to make the strainer. ..... six of one, half dozen of another.

[AndyKnight]

OK I will throw a new loop in here...... I build all leather almost exclusively however...I am building a cutting tree right now with very thin bars and have covered with epoxy and fiberglass and built a fiberglass strainer that is now part of the tree..

I will use a little leather to dress the seat to a desired shape but the closeness to the horse will be far less than a traditional saddle and as the ground seat is now part of the tree it makes the tree that much stronger.

Clint, I wish I were close to you as I would sure like to visit with you on riding reining horse and what you prefer in reining saddles.. I believe I may have built you a couple of headstalls with Richard's silver.

Yes we all use short cuts. I call it getting more efficient ...some favorites a sharp knife, and ,,,power drill, sewing machine, clicker ,prewaxed polyester thread, (Some of you buy your own trees) .

A true craftsmen/ businessman will get to know where and how to make shortcuts to increase the margins in his products while increasing the quality.

If you aren't trying to make a living then you may take the longest way to get to the destination ...enjoy the ride.!!

"If you don't want to be boxed in you must at least start thinking outside of the box"

My thoghts...Not intended to offend anyone...

Have a Great day!!

Andy Knight