Ground seat construction

[bruce johnson]

Just some observations I have made.

I buy old saddles at sales barns now and then and like to look at how they where constucted. F.E Meana plains style slick fork 8 button double rigged from the 1910's, has an all leather ground seat that is very sound, this saddle was well used as the latigo and off billet have worn thru the skirt leather. Miles City Coggshell swell fork, 8 button from the 1920's real bad condition but the all leather groundseat is outstanding , still has it rise and it did not break down, Otto Ernst swell fork 8 button from the 1920's, steel strainer sound ground seat. Point being that both these ground seat methods have been around all time and both have there merit.

Steve

Steve,

Thanks for that perspective, and I would bet that if Meana, Coggshell, and Ernst would have met in Sheridan, they'd have argued about groundseats back then too. When they got tired of that, they picked up on how trees ought to fit, and then switched over to what leather was the best. After they were done and the Mint (or whatever was there then) closed, one went north, one went south and one stayed in town. They weren't unanimous very much 90 years ago, but still we've all heard of them.

This thread has some age on it, and if you go back and read through it, you will find some different points of view today. The bottom line is that good and bad seats can be made with a strainer or without. Troy West said it, anybody want to argue with his track record? Steve Brewer agreed, and he has been described as "one of the best saddlemakers not enough people have heard of". Dale Harwood uses a strainer and Chuck Stormes uses all leather. I am not going to step up and tell any of them they are wrong. Look at some of the other good makers on this thread and forum and who they learned from. They aren't all doing it like they started out, or even like who they learned from later. It wasn't settled back then and won't be now, but it is good watching.

[CWR]

I noticed this thread got a little heated and I wanted to take the opportunity to say thank you to all of you who take the time to post on here. I'm not a saddle maker...yet, I'm trying to put my tools and skills together and get started soon. I have very little to offer Bruce, Steve Brewer, Steve Mason and many others on here, but I sure have learned alot from them. At this point in my life I can't afford to go to any of the trade shows, seminars or spend a week with a master so trial and error and this forum and the people who contribute to it are my only teachers. So thanks again guys for taking time out your day to help the ones who are trying to learn.

CW

[RWB]

Ok, I guess that I may have unintentionally, stepped on a few toes, when I said that using a tin strainer was a short cut. Mostly what I said was not taken the way I meant it. Perhaps what I should have said is , that the dozen or so saddles that have come to me in my shop to be re-done because they were deamed uncomfortable by their owners, were, saddles with metal strainers. When I took them apart to rebuild them, it was evident that the maker was taking shortcuts to get the job done and the end result suffered from it, not just in the seat but also in many of the various different areas that, taking time to skive and fit properly result in a good saddle. I did not mean, that anyone that uses a tin strainer is making junk! When you talk about the likes of the many saddlemakers that are both known and unknown out there that take the time to build top saddles, they do not do that by cutting corners. If you are going to use a seat tin, and take the time to fully shape and contour it properly, you are not taking a short cut, it takes time and effort to achieve proper shape. On the other hand, the ones that I have removed and placed full leather ground seats in, were originally like sitting on a 8" wide board. These tins were simply tacked in place the way they came from the maker. That is a shortcut and does create an inferior product. I am sure that the guys you are mentioning by name, would never simply do that . As someone else said here, "If the seat is well done, it's well done...period". I agree with that, whole heartedly. As for me, I will continue to use the leather method, because it gives me the opportunity to shape and skive as I go, and finally, whenever possible, I have the owner come to the shop and sit the seat before I go on. That gives me a chance to do a final skive to be sure it is pleasing to the owner. That ain't no short cut, but; it does make sure that the results are perfect. That should be the results you are looking to acvhieve , if you aspire to have your name mentioned in the same breath as those that have gone before us.

Sorry if I hurt anbody's feelings!

Bondo Bob

Bob,

You don't have to apologize for your comment. A tin strainer in a lot of ways is a shortcut. And we all use some sort of shortcut at some point. Some short cuts are great and some aren't. I use a strainer and like to do my seats that way, but you didn't offend me. In fact the only person you seem to offended is someone who likes to tell everyone that he is the best. Don't worry about your comment.

Ross Brunk

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Bob,

You don't have to apologize for your comment. A tin strainer in a lot of ways is a shortcut. And we all use some sort of shortcut at some point. Some short cuts are great and some aren't. I use a strainer and like to do my seats that way, but you didn't offend me. In fact the only person you seem to offended is someone who likes to tell everyone that he is the best. Don't worry about your comment.

Ross Brunk

Thank's Ross! At the end of the day, the most important thing is that the customer get's a good quality product that exceeds his/her needs. To that end , I try to learn from others and the makers that have preceeded me, and do what it is that the customer requires. I hope that each and every piece that I do, ends up being passed down in the family with pride. I try to keep track of my saddles and where they are. To date, I only know of 2 that have changed hands out of the original owners' family. To me that is the real test of ones' efforts. By the way, those 2 now have owners that come to me for additional work.

Bondo Bob

[jbird]

I know some of the best there is and it's a split some use tin some use all leather I my self think that there both a good way to go how about steve brewer chiming in he is one of those masters that can use either but does use all leather

Josh

[David Genadek]

I think the only real concern is the shape. Maybe in a very specific situation strainer versus all leather might have an advantage but in the end what makes a good ground seed is the shape. I have done them both ways and did find that all leather grounds seats allowed me more control over the shape than I had when I used a strainer. However,as I got busier and busier and needed to start hiring help the all leather ground seats became an issue. So now I use strainers but I do my groundwork entirely different than anything I had ever seen or was taught. I modify the strainer plate so that it allows me to create the same shape I would get with a leather ground seat. Now I can grab a guy off the street and by the end of the day have him doing a ground seat that anyone would be happy to ride in and it gets done in about a half hour.

Is using a strainer a shortcut ,sure what's wrong with shortcuts? Using a sewing machine is a shortcut. I remember when I was younger Bill Gomer brought a saddle to show and he had stitched it on a machine. Why, I was beside myself that he would have such nerve and I even told him he had sold his soul and if the craft were to exist we must maintain the highest level of excellence in the craft. Bill in his infinite wisdom sat this wet behind the ears kid down and explained the realities of the life I was entering into. Oh I argued all the points but then a few years down the road I was needing some help so Bill came and helped for a few weeks. Well of course he pointed out the number of sewing machines I now had in my shop and we had a good laugh. I will be forever grateful for the kind advice he gave me that day.

David Genadek

Edited October 8, 2009 by David Genadek

[CLH]

I think the only real concern is the shape. Maybe in a very specific situation strainer versus all leather might have an advantage but in the end what makes a good ground seed is the shape. I have done them both ways and did find that all leather grounds seats allowed me more control over the shape than I had when I used a strainer. However,as I got busier and busier and needed to start hiring help the all leather ground seats became an issue. So now I use strainers but I do my groundwork entirely different than anything I had ever seen or was taught. I modify the strainer plate so that it allows me to create the same shape I would get with a leather ground seat. Now I can grab a guy off the street and by the end of the day have him doing a ground seat that anyone would be happy to ride in and it gets done in about a half hour.

Is using a strainer a shortcut ,sure what's wrong with shortcuts? Using a sewing machine is a shortcut. I remember when I was younger Bill Gomer brought a saddle to show and he had stitched it on a machine. Why, I was beside myself that he would have such nerve and I even told him he had sold his soul and if the craft were to exist we must maintain the highest level of excellence in the craft. Bill in his infinite wisdom sat this wet behind the ears kid down and explained the realities of the life I was entering into. Oh I argued all the points but then a few years down the road I was needing some help so Bill came and helped for a few weeks. Well of course he pointed out the number of sewing machines I now had in my shop and we had a good laugh. I will be forever grateful for the kind advice he gave me that day.

David Genadek

Hello all,I guess the Cowboy Way is gone in one guy's eyes.Such a shame,one day maybe he'll grow up. Quien sabe?? I build a few saddles and have the luxuery to ride a lot of horses daily also. I think my prostier is slightly educated.I prefer a all leather ground seat for my personal saddles ,both work and show and the ones I build.They just fit me better. I build what I ride and sell the same.I use a Tennie Haws tree,I've 3 left,Leson style, 3" laid back cantle,they are sure nice. Now, that should start some conversation. I need to talk to Keith and try some of his trees.They should be the same. Any comments on trees ?Hell of a post in ground seats. Thanks. Any how, my thoughts, Clint Haverty

Edited October 9, 2009 by Denise

[Alan Bell]

I had this real nice (OK not so much) response all typed up but didn't post it. I had others read my post to see if I was coming across in a negative way. Granted they are all my friends but I hope they would be my friends and tell me honestly if I was wrong. This thread moved from a questions about techniques to one of character assessment and I helped steer it in that direction though I was trying not to. I guess it depends on how one views "short cuts" and who gets to decide who is the "Best". I will offer this one more notice to Ted; if everybody sees things one way but you see it differently, maybe just maybe, you might at some point consider that you may in some small fraction of a way be wrong! There I said it and I know it is off topic. On topic we all agree that a good seat is a good seat tin or all leather! And off topic to Ted I would still enjoy visiting with you anytime to discuss "the finer points"of saddle making.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

[Go2Tex]

Groundseats are like a lot of aspects of saddlemaking, the more you do it the more ways you figure out how to improve the process and that is true whether you choose tin or leather.

That is why there must be as many ways to make groundseats as there are makers building them. The more I learn about different methods, the less confident I am that I'm doing it the "best way", the most efficient way and the way that will please my customers and still be a good value.

Personally, I like the 2 piece tin with stirrup risers under it and enough leather on top of it to smooth it off and shape it the way I want it. It allows me to be flexible with the shape, it will flex somewhat but it won't break down even if the saddle gets totally soaked and used by a Sumo wrestler with really bad riding habbits. I tried the pre-made one piece tins and I've made leather seats. The 2 piece tin works the "best" for me as it combines the 2 methods.

As for creating the tunnel effect between the bars, if the tree fits the horse properly, the area between the bars should be high enough that there is no need for the seat tin or leather seat to be shaped in an arch except in the front where it goes over the withers. The tree bars and risers provide sufficient clearance in that area and the front tin piece is shaped with an arch over that area. If a heavy enough tin is used, it is quite strong and gives plenty of support over the stirrup slots and around the hand hole. This is the area that I believe is the weak point of the all leather groundseat, depending on how the slots and hand hole is designed, of course. I'm sure I'll get an argument about that point from the all-leather proponents and I welcome their thoughts.

As for which method is the easiest, I would have to say the all leather, since I make my own tins and then put just about as much leather on top and do a lot of carving and fussing for days to get it just right. So, for me, the all leather is a short-cut because I don't have to make the strainer. ..... six of one, half dozen of another.

[AndyKnight]

OK I will throw a new loop in here...... I build all leather almost exclusively however...I am building a cutting tree right now with very thin bars and have covered with epoxy and fiberglass and built a fiberglass strainer that is now part of the tree..

I will use a little leather to dress the seat to a desired shape but the closeness to the horse will be far less than a traditional saddle and as the ground seat is now part of the tree it makes the tree that much stronger.

Clint, I wish I were close to you as I would sure like to visit with you on riding reining horse and what you prefer in reining saddles.. I believe I may have built you a couple of headstalls with Richard's silver.

Yes we all use short cuts. I call it getting more efficient ...some favorites a sharp knife, and ,,,power drill, sewing machine, clicker ,prewaxed polyester thread, (Some of you buy your own trees) .

A true craftsmen/ businessman will get to know where and how to make shortcuts to increase the margins in his products while increasing the quality.

If you aren't trying to make a living then you may take the longest way to get to the destination ...enjoy the ride.!!

"If you don't want to be boxed in you must at least start thinking outside of the box"

My thoghts...Not intended to offend anyone...

Have a Great day!!

Andy Knight