Saddle to identify - mclellan looking

[pella]

The up saddle are not all hinged. I think they are called universal pattern because the pattern has the same for saddler in England, canada, australia, etc...

[BBAYS]

Check out ebay. Type in saddle tree. Someone is selling a tree very similar tree to this saddle. This saddle looks like a version of whats called a Grimsley Dragoon. A cavalry saddle used before the Civil War.

[barra]

The term 'Pattern' refers to a specification as laid down by the British War Department to govern the manufacture of equipment for her armed forces. These patterns ensure that the various companies contracted to manufacture this equipment supply items of a known and compatible standard.

Of the various patterns the 1912 was the one with the swivel bars and I believe this was actually patented in 1909. The UP 1890 and UP 1902 had fixed bars. Other interesting changes to the 1912 was that the flaps on the 1912 were buttoned to the bars instead of screwed and the cross straining webs were stitched onto the flap on one side and laced to the other.

Back to Pella's saddle. I agree with BBays, the pommel is very Grimsley-esq and the cantle looks like an Artillery drivers version of the Grimsley. I don't believe this saddle is Military because of the tooling. Also the Serge lining directly against the underside of the bars with no apparent flocking makes this a very interesting saddle.

Barra

[Echo4V]

Barra- I can definately see the resemblance to the Grimsley in the pommel but, wouldn't the skirts, rigging and cantle distinguish this from a Grimsley? I have never seen a Grimsley that was double rigged...they were all single rigged and used with a surcingle (at least the ones I have seen or seen pictures of) as well as the cantle had a sort of horn on it as well as coat strap holes for attaching the valise.

I couldn't find any pictures of original Grimsleys right off but here's a link to some repros for you guys to look at and compare this to.

http://www.americanmilitarysaddle.com/1805.html

By the way...thanks for the info about the meaning of the UP name and the fact that not all had hinges on the bows.

David

[barra]

http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/M18856A.JPEG

A modified Grimsley Artillery drivers saddle tree.

I was actually just referring to the tree on Pella's saddle being Grimsley-esq. The skirts and rigging has me stumped.

Barra

Edited May 12, 2009 by barra

[pella]

Barra: this is exactly my tree with the funny rounded back looking cantle!!!! Maybe a saddler just decide making his own private saddle on that kind of tree, who know.

[Denise]

I am always amazed by the breadth and depth of knowledge of the people who contribute to this forum. Thanks for the education!

[Yonatan]

Pella, I posted my thoughts about your saddle on the "Vintage Saddle" thread,

by mistake--I was reading both threads. So I'll repeat myself here and say once again,

that I think your saddle is South American, probably Colombian, built on a modified

McClellan tree. Compare the details to other modified McClellans used in northern

South America and Central America. You can see that the riggin style is identical to most

Colombian saddles too. The fork on your saddle comes to a higher, sharper point on top.

But strip off the leather in your mind's eye, and I think you'll easily be able to picture a

basic McClellan tree, again, with some modifications. Compare the style of border stamping with Colombian saddles, and I think you'll see the similarity there as well.

JD

[oldtimer]

I agree, Yonatan ! The saddle has the typical South American look , so I could bet a dollar or two on that !

[grumpyguy]

I don't want to sound like a "know it all," because really I don't. While it is possible it could be from South America there is another possibility, as Denise mentioned there are a number of calvary saddles beside the Mc Clellan. Your saddle definately has some cavalry style stirrups. During the era prior to the Civil War period as well as some time after, there was a popularity in what was known as "Plantation" or also known as "Gentelman's saddles." Many old pictures of particularly southern mounted units will show there was not much standardization in horse equipment used. Added to that officers often would use what they preferred over the issued gear. (Both North and South.) Your saddle does not appear to be that old, or has recieved exceptional care. The narrow bars would tend to make me think it is either an older saddle or for other breeds of horses than are commonly found in the states today. One tree that was commonly used in these types were called "Jennifer" patterns. They were made purely for riding and were not designed as a working rig. (Standardbreds and some walking type horses were and are shown in more of this type of saddle, they are typiaclly narrower than Quarter type horses. Might be interesting to check into that as well.) These trees are somewhat weaker in design than western working saddles. Some tree makers still make and sell them. (I've seen the tree advertized in the printed Ritter Saddle tree catalog from 1990.) Without a careful inspection of the saddle and tree it is not possible to even guess, but it does look similar. You might be right about the rigging as this was a common rigging for these types of saddles.

(Also noted are the lack of hardware for attaching cavalry type gear.)