Point of reference on a tree?

[Doug Mclean]

I would be interested in what everyone has to say about putting in the riggin and skirts. When I start on a saddle I usually use the center of the horn and the center of the cantle as my reference points. And then when I am in the process of attaching riggin and skirts I will use a straight edge on front of the fork resting on the top of the bars and also on the back of the fork. I usually try and find a happy medium between all of these. Sometimes I am not very happy with the end result. It seems like I end up having to make some compromises. I also wonder if you should be looking at the bottom side in regards to the riggin and not so much concern about what shows up on the top. I'm in the process of putting in a riggin and it is not going as well as I would like. ( Can you tell !!!!)

[jonwatsabaugh]

Doug,

Rigging placement is somewhat subjective. I've yet to run into any two that place them the same way. 7/8 on one guy's saddle is a little different than 7/8 on another. Although I think horn position should be considered, I rely mainly on a measurement back from the front tip of the bar, that being 3 1/4". This is what I consider full position. 1 3/4"-2" back from that is what I call 7/8. I built a jig I square my tree on to get the rigging placement symetrical side to side. I consider symetry the single most important issue here. Now, looking at the tree on the jig from a profile view, I position it to represent how it sits on the horse. This is also a subjective matter as you "eye ball in" this position. Once I'm satisfied with the placement of the tree, I simply measure back from my point of reference and draw in a perpendicular line for rigging placement. I measure from the front edge of the jig to this point then replicate that to the other side. Using this jig, I can be dead sure they are the same side to side. When I get my camera back next week I will post a couple of pix of my jig with further explanation.

Jon

[barra]

I have heard many and various explanations as to reference point, so many that it makes my head spin. Prior to the crash this explanation was offered and it was the one that I found the simplest. I am sure Bruce mentioned it something like this.

Take the lowest point of the bar at the front (full).

Take lowest point of bar at rear. Measure the distance between the two points. From this measurement you can find 7/8" the distance between the two measurements, 3/4" etc

keep up the comments. I'm finding it all very informative.

Barra

Edited March 14, 2008 by barra

[kseidel]

Rigging placement is sooo subjective! And How to place them consistently is difficult without good reference points that are consistent. A jig helps. Jon's fixed point being the front of his bar works fine if you only use one treemaker. Also, how a tree sits on a horse affects rigging position from one treemaker to another.

I like to have my skirts in place on the tree when I fit my riggings, and that makes using a jig somewhat harder. I have a jig set up on a saddle stand that is fitted to tree shape to hold the tree square, and have attached a board across the front to measure back from for a consistent reference point. I determine the depth of the rigging from the bottom of the bar and measure back from the board across the front.

I don't like to use the horn or cantle as reference points since they are not consistent from tree to tree. The horn can be out of center, leaning a bit to one side, etc. The same with the cantle; off center or one side farther forward than the other. I know we all want to have perfect trees, but that is not always the case. The horn and cantle are not always centered and square over the bars, and the bars are what fits the horses back. So I always reference off of the bars as they sit in the horses back.

[jwwright]

I have been using the lowest point of the bar front and back, then do the math method. Seems to work well for me.................sure enjoy hearing how others do it. JW

[kseidel]

Barra, that method of finding rigging position is inconsistent from tree to tree. I have tried to find methods that work every time on any tree for any saddlemaker.

With the tree sitting level as it would on a horses back, (not flat on a bench) I use a verticle line from the center of the base of the horn for the full position. I never want to be forward of this position, and sometimes this can be too far forward for a good functioning rigging. Nevertheless, it is the farthest forward weight bearing point on the top of the tree. I then make a verticle line at the frontmost points of the cantle. This being about the farthest back that bears weight where the rider sits. Halfway between these two lines is centerfire position. Halfway between centerfire and full is 3/4. Halfway between 3/4 and full is 7/8'ths. It is the most consistent way that I have found to place riggings given any set of variables.

Keith

[bruce johnson]

To give credit for using the low point of the front and back bar pads as references. I first heard it from an older guy sitting in on one of Pete Gorrell's roundtables at a Reno LCSJ show. His name escapes me, but it was a pleasure to just hear him talk about some of the old days and ways. Old men are generally wise. He had a few other pearls. One of my favorites was cutting strap work. In the old shops the foreman usually cut the parts out. On the really good saddles they cut the strap work and stirrup leathers out of the righthand sides. Reason being the rumen sits to the left side of the living beast. The rumen is filling and emptying, creating methane to ruin our environment, eructates or bloats up, fills on good feed and sags in on poor feed. All of that creates a just a little more stretchiness in the finished left sides in that area. I have never heard that referenced to before or since, but it makes sense to me. I do it just to honor the thought.

[Doug Mclean]

Thank You everyone for all of the good feed back. On my way to the shop to put some of these ideas to work. Will let you know when the smoke clears.

Thanks again !!!

[RyanCope]

The way I was taught I think is similar to Keith. I place the tree on a flat bench and put a block under the rear of the bars to simulate a horses back. I then mark the low spot on the front bar pads which is usually the middle of the horn. Never going past the middle. I consider this to be full. I then tip the tree on its nose. With a yard stick I measure up one inch per position. 7/8-centerfire. Center fire being 4" above full. Mark each side.

When placing the rigging on I measure down from this mark. Then again I tip the tree on its nose and measure the rigging vertically with a yard stick. Simply put. Often I use triangle to make sure dee riggings are square, etc. This does not work if your rigging leather sticks out beyond the bar tip.

I recently bought a laser that disects the saddle into 4 quadrents. So far it has been a very frustrating method for riggings when I get things lined up perfect, and try to measure it in the way previously noted (great in other areas). I think Keith is correct that if the cantle and horn aren't perfect it makes those measurements invalid.

[jonwatsabaugh]

I do block and trim my skirts before I set the tree on my jig. I have the ability to do this with 4 points that protrude out from the base of the jig that are also adjustable. This alows me to change the elevation front to back to simulate correct level on the horse. The jig also enables me to hang the rigging at the exact same depth side to side. This is a very simple tool that is very user friendly and virtually fool proof for symetry.

Jon