Cant Seem to get the hang of Plait 6

[Des804]

I'm using the book braiding and lacing for fun along with Encyclopedia of Rawhide and Leather lacing book to try and learn plaiting. I have 4 down easily enough but trying to do 6 and each time I do it it never turns out correctly. I'm following the books instructions of going under 4 and over 2 and the front and back look completly different from each other I was wondering if anyone had any ideas or Tips ( I dont have any photos of the pieces cause I keep disassembling them to try and work them again and get it right )

[Spence]

I'd recommend just starting out with U1, O1 until you get your fingers to work with your brain. Then go to U2, O2, etc. It's been said many times, but practice, practice, practice. That's really the only way. The books you are using are good for getting started. g'luck

[rcsaddles]

I understand that anything more than U2 O2 will be loose and hard to pull tight. I would recommend staying with the U2 O2. A six palit should be around a core. The strand you are working goes around teh back and ends up in the side it started from.

Clear as mud?

Joe

[Des804]

Well the lacing for fun mentions no core the Encyclopedia one mentions that you should use a core... Thing is what do I use for a core with 1/8 plastic lace which is what Im practicing on as getting my brain to work right thats not a problem I can easily follow the under 4 over 2 it just doesnt look like I think it should. If i can figure out what kind of core to use with this thread I'll try that and take some photos it also mentioned a U1O1 Thing in the encyclopedia along with the U4O2.

Also it stated that some things with Plait 6 didn't need cores but yeah Since Overall I am learning this in the long run to do a Plait Style Whip I'll be using cores anyways.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Des804

[jerryrwm]

6 plait will not be U4 O2. It will be U2 O1 or U1 O2. Three strands on each side. Uppermost right strand around back and U2O1, the uppermost left strand around back and U2O1. Repeat until finished. Pull tight as you go, keep the seams straight.

Read the sections on braiding with and without a core again. It will show you how to do 6 plait.

Also 6 plait will result in a whopper-jawed pattern because of the uneven number of strands when doing anything other than U1O1U1 - O1U1O1.

[HorsehairBraider]

Jerryrwm nailed it.

As far as cores go, you can use about anything. I'd try and find some fairly stiff cord, that's pretty thin. Every now and again I've been able to find a nice hard twist cotton cord, that's only about 3 or 4 mm in diameter. Another thing you can use is cheap cotton cord, but braided in the 4-strand. That should give you a lot of practice at the 4-strand! :D

[Des804]

Jerry Im looking at the book itself right now in the Lacing and Braiding for Fun book that is where it states that it is Under 4 over 2 The Encylopedia doesnt have directions for a Coreless one but states the u1 o1 or u2 over 1 setup. Also What is a Lock Jaw pattern if I may ask ?

Also HorseHairbraider I was pondering doing that with the cotton thread I have here I was going to ask later on if it would work. I made a bunch of 4 strand lanyards to the point I can make those in my sleep now lol.

Thanks for the tips guys The fact of the u4 o2 is probably because its going from behind and 3 of those 4 would be on the front part if there was a core and wouldnt be counted.

[jerryrwm]

Des,

I'm not familiar with the Lacing & Braiding For Fun book. But I would recommend using a core especially on anything over 4 plait unless it might be jewelry. It can be sash cord or clothes line rope - anything to fill the gap in the middle while you are practicing. Later use quality material for your core like Horsehairbraider said. And as you get into whip making you will be using leather for the core that you'll need to form yourself.

If you look at Plate 39 in Grant's ERLB (pg 110 & 111) you will see the round braid of six thongs. While it shows it with a core, the sequence is still the same without a core. This is an O1U1O1 one each side.

Then go to Plate 74 (pg 190 & 191) How to build a bullwhip. In the middle of the diagram, figure 12 shows a 6 braid (it's labeled 4 braid). This is again with a core, but the braiding is still the same without a core. This details the sequence as Right - U2O1 Left - U1O2.

If you want to learn to plait like you will in most whips, step up to 8 plait. Then it gives you even numbers and it it U2O2 on each side.

Good Luck and keep at it.

Jerry

[Des804]

Thanks Jerry The Whip I was looking at to make was the one that goes from 12 down to 4 in the Encyclopedia so I'm trying to get up to being able to do all of them up to 12 efficiently. I'll keep working at it.

[LBbyJ]

Good advice from all above, I would only add a couple of things. For a six strand braid I'd use a core of 4 mm or less or else the braid doesn't cover it very well. I do make lots of bracelets without cores as well as other things it just takes practice.

There are three different 6 strand (plaits) braids:

Easy Six U2 O1, U1 O2

Six the hard way U1 O1 U1 going both direction. (Lots of finger work that's why I call it hard)

Half Round U2, O1 going both directions.

I use the easy six without a core, seems to round a little easier or at least that's what works for me.

Keep practicing, John

[Des804]

Ok and this is using the upper most left and the upper most Right going around back ?

[Des804]

Ok wouldn't let me edit my lats reply so I have to make another one Update is I used the U2 over 1 without a core and man it made a huge difference. I used String to do it though I'll have to look at how well it works with Lace. Might have to ask you guys what the formula is for Plait 8 and Plait 12 then and try to do plait 6 with a core.

Ok looking at it closely I still get the same looking thing on the front it looks like \/ but on the back its more tightly done it would seem. This was the same effect I was getting with the other thing as well. How do I even this out ? I dont think Im pulling to hard on one way or the other but yeah I am getting the same effect no matter what I do the u1 o1 the u2 over 1 and the u4 o2

Ok another edit I just added photos of the front and the back to show what I am talking about... Hopefully I can get some help to fix this.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Des804

[jerryrwm]

Des,

With 6 plait that is what it will look like with or without a core. The reason is that you have an uneven number of strands on each side - 3 on each. If you wre plaiting 10 you would end up with a finished prodouct that was different front to back - again because of the uneven number of strands. That's the "whopper-jawed" effect I was talking about earlier. That doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong - and as they say in Wisconsin "It is what it is."

For patterns that plait the same front and back, you need to stay with multiples of 4 - ie. 8; 12; 16; etc. Then you would have an even number of strands on each side. 8 plait would be U2O2. 12 plait would be U3O3 (unless you wanted to do the herringbone and then it would be O2U2O2) 16 plait would be U4O4 (or herringbone which would be U2O2U2O2)

I would still recommend getting Edward' "How To Make Whips". Grant's book does not go into the inner wotking of a whip or help with the bellies that a fine kangaroo whip has. The book is available through Amazon.com or through Ramskull Press. Also check with the Aust. Whipmakers & Plaiters Assn.

[Des804]

* Smacks Forehead * you mean I've been making countless plait 6's thinking I was doing something wrong and I was actually doing it right.... As for the wihps book soon as I can start affording to buy things ( still laid off from work and unemployment ends here soon can barely afford to feed myself along with paying off my bills ) I'll add that to my list of things.

[LBbyJ]

Just for clarity the braid pictured above is the half round braid so the backside will have the running V and the front will have the over under sequence.

[BrokeStrand]

I can't seem to figure out how anyone can go u4 o2 with only 6 strands. If the working strand is #1, you go under 4 strands (that puts you at strand #5) and going over 2 strands would have you going over strand #6 and the working starnd (#1).

Am I missing something here?

I have worked a little with the 6 strand braid and don't care for it for the exact reason you thought something was wrong with yours. It doesn't look the way my mind thinks it should. Because I can't change reality (the way it looks), I just change my mind to use the number of strands that looks the way I think it should.

[HorsehairBraider]

I can't seem to figure out how anyone can go u4 o2 with only 6 strands. If the working strand is #1, you go under 4 strands (that puts you at strand #5) and going over 2 strands would have you going over strand #6 and the working starnd (#1).

Am I missing something here?

I have worked a little with the 6 strand braid and don't care for it for the exact reason you thought something was wrong with yours. It doesn't look the way my mind thinks it should. Because I can't change reality (the way it looks), I just change my mind to use the number of strands that looks the way I think it should.

You can't go u4 o2. Read the second post, by jerryrwm, and then read the 4th post by LBbyJ. I think they explain it pretty well.

I do think it's right to use the braids you like the best though. Why use something you don't care for? I think that is smart.

[Timothy]

I can't seem to figure out how anyone can go u4 o2 with only 6 strands. If the working strand is #1, you go under 4 strands (that puts you at strand #5) and going over 2 strands would have you going over strand #6 and the working starnd (#1).

Am I missing something here?

Brokestrand,

Let me see if I can explain it a couple of different ways. One of them might make more sense to you.

First, just to be clear, let's assume that you have six strands numbered 1-6 left to right.

First way:

Step 1 :Take strand #1 and go to the right under the next 4 strands: #2, #3, #4, and #5. Now go back to the left over two strands: #5 and #4. The numbers l-r are now 2,3,1,4,5,6.

Step 2: Take strand six and go to the left under four strands: #5, #4, #1, and #3. Now go back to the right over two strands: #3 and #1. The order should now be 2,3,1,6,4,5.

Step 3: Strand #2 right under four, back to the left over two.

Step 4: Strand #5 left under four, Back to the right over two.

Step 5: Strand #3 right under four, left over two

Step 6: Strand #4 left under four, right over two.

Start over with step one.

Second way.

Divide the strands so there are three in each hand. Take the outside strand in your left hand around the back and come up between the two outermost strands in your right hand(#5 and #6.) Add it back to the group in your left hand so that it is the inside strand. Now take the outside strand in your right hand around the back and bring it up between the two outermost strands in your left hand (#2 and #3). Add it back to the right hand group so that it is the inside strand. Repeat indefinately. All That changes are the numbers in parentheses, and they shouldn't matter after you get started.

Both of these should make the braid shown above with a herringbone front and a basketweave back. With a core it will be round. Coreless, the front will be flat and the back round.

I usually find that when I can't figure something out its because I get locked into a certain way of thinking, so I try to figure out different ways to look at things. Of course, it might just be that I'm stupid.

To me u4o2 does work, you just have to add some directions to it.(No offense meant, Horsehairbraider) When I was a kid Dad told me a four strand round braid was over 2 under 1. I never figured it out, and finally got him to show me how. Thats what I thought of when I saw the problem.

I hope this helps.

Tim

[jerryrwm]

I can't seem to figure out how anyone can go u4 o2 with only 6 strands. If the working strand is #1, you go under 4 strands (that puts you at strand #5) and going over 2 strands would have you going over strand #6 and the working starnd (#1).

Am I missing something here?

I have worked a little with the 6 strand braid and don't care for it for the exact reason you thought something was wrong with yours. It doesn't look the way my mind thinks it should. Because I can't change reality (the way it looks), I just change my mind to use the number of strands that looks the way I think it should.

No you're not missing anything. A 6 plait is always going to look like it does because of the odd number of strands on each side.

If you want it to look symetrical then you will need to plait O1U1O1. That's it. Bernie W of EM Brand Whips in Tasmania used to plait the end of his thong in O1U1O1 for a 6 plait finish. He felt it gave the tail end of the whip a little better liveliness plus a sysmetrical finish.

An easier solution would be to start using 8 strands. Cut the laces a little narrower or increase the size of the core and you can plait U2O2 all the way to the end.

Your choice. Plaiting is a mathematical function and the laws of mathematics cannot be changed. (Dang that almost sounded philosophical. Naaa - not from this old mossy head.)

G' Luck

Jerry

[BrokeStrand]

See why I don't like it. I even messed up the description of my missunderstanding.

What confused me was where you start counting strands. As far as I am concerned, a round braid must start with "around the back". So the first strand I come to is actually the outside strand on the opposite side (#6) (not #2 as I stated above).

My logic is because an u1o1 6 strand round braid doesn't start with u5.

I really appreciate the sharing of wisdom on this site. It has helped me avoid many hours of making mistakes. However, now I spend more time reading posts and looking at everyone's work.

You guys are great.

[LBbyJ]

I dig what you are saying now with the under 4, over 2. If you are bringing a string from the right to left you are counting the 2 strings on the right and then the first two strings you encounter to the left. Whatever book is telling you that throw it away!!! Just about everyone will look at the braid and say your bringing the string around behind and then under, over whatever sequence. This 4 /2 sequence is giving you the same braid that we would describe as under one, over two, which is the half round six strand braid.

Here's a link to a page I made showing the variations of 6 strand braids:

http://lbbyj.ideamakers.com/index.php?main...e=page&id=2

Good luck and thanks for making us all scratch our heads for awhile. Now go throw that other book away!!!

[Timothy]

I sincerely hope I didn't confuse anyone too much.

I personally use the round the back, under 1 over 2. But I thought I might could explain where the under 4 over 2 came from, so I gave it a shot.

Like I said, it was the first way a round braid was explained to me before I knew any better.

LBbyJ, thanks for the link. Great website.

I usually try to keep my mouth shut unless I have something usefull to add. Maybe I should have this time.

Once again, sorry for any confusion.

Tim

[LBbyJ]

I wouldn't worry that you confused anyone, sometimes we just get set in our ways and don't want to hear anything new. You can tell it took us all awhile to understand what you were asking. As a self taught braider I can understand how hard it is to start out with only a book to compare your work to so ask all the questions you want and next time I'll try to be more open minded.

Let us know how your doing on projects, John

[Don Ayres]

You all have helped me personally to understand the 4 and 6 strand braiding process by reading these post, i myself am ready to move on to the 8 strand braid w/ a core.

This group has been a wonderful resource for me and now im making bracelets and necklaces as gifts for friends and family out the wazoo !!!

Thanks to all

D.A.

[sos]

I'm not sure why but John's page doesn't load from here...here's the link I am able to open:

http://www.lbbyj.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=2

I dig what you are saying now with the under 4, over 2. If you are bringing a string from the right to left you are counting the 2 strings on the right and then the first two strings you encounter to the left. Whatever book is telling you that throw it away!!! Just about everyone will look at the braid and say your bringing the string around behind and then under, over whatever sequence. This 4 /2 sequence is giving you the same braid that we would describe as under one, over two, which is the half round six strand braid.

Here's a link to a page I made showing the variations of 6 strand braids:

http://lbbyj.ideamakers.com/index.php?main...e=page&id=2

Good luck and thanks for making us all scratch our heads for awhile. Now go throw that other book away!!!

I'm not sure why but John's page doesn't load from here...here's the link I am able to open:

http://www.lbbyj.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=2