Padded inlaid seat

[bruce johnson]

Might as well brew another pot and add another related topic to Ryan's saddle. How does everybody do a padded inlaid seat? I have done one, and was having a heck of time finding the right foam. Most was too soft for what I was looking for, or my previous experience was that some broke down. Eventually that would leave a crater. I backed up and made a buildup of 3 layers of scrap chap leather, glued each layer and then edge sewed the pad. I used elephant for the seat, figuring two things. One was that it was durable, the other was that it came pre-wrinkled. I had watched a guy put in a padded seat who had done several. Demonstrations are doomed to failure, and his roo wrinkled. Mine came out pretty decent.

Since then talking to several guys, no two are alike. Some guys use a thin backer and sandwich the padding, others stitch the seat cover in and cement the seat and pad down to the ground seat. Some guys use foam, others use a chap buildup. All techniques, tips, tricks, and trivia are welcome here.

[Blake]

Hello Bruce

I use a high density foam from a company called Rubatex. It is essentialy a very durable insulating foam used on commercial cooling and refrigeration equipment. It is rated for out door use and is UV resistant as well. Contact them and they will send you a sample sheet. I don't have the product number that I use right off the top of my head but I will look it up. I keep a couple of thicknesses up to 3/4" so I can use it with or without the plug as a few people like a bit more cushion.

I have a lot of saddles still in use well over the twenty year mark with inlayed seats and all are holding up well.

It is a great combination when used with English Veg tan Pig Skin which you can get from Seigals. Its a little pricey but comes in some good earth tones and is easy to work with. It cases pretty nice so it forms nicely over the plug and foam and wrinkling is not an issue.

Blake

[Duke]

I have yet to make a saddle, since I am building up my experience tooling and repairing saddles, before I tackle making one, but a customer of mine, who routinely does inlaid seats says that he uses memory foam. not quite sure where he gets it from, although he said he has a good supplier. but it works good, and is very comfortable.

[Don101]

What happend to shearing dont they use that any more, in the books i read they used shearing erm are they out dated LOL, Don

[bruce johnson]

Blake,

Thanks for the info. After I did that seat, I got some gray dense foam from Don Butler. He said it was AC foam (1/2"?) and he bought a pretty large quantity of it. Since then it has been slick seats, and haven't got to try it yet. I would like to get some a little thinner like maybe 3/16 or 1/4" for the barrel saddles and some of those type seats. Let me know a contact for Rubatex. The good thing is I haven't had to reseat a Dale Chavez couch cushion for a few years, just thought of that.

Thanks for tip on the English veg pig. I haven't used that, but have used some pig suede on some of the padded seat repairs.

Do you or how do you attach your inlaid seats to the seat?

[bruce johnson]

What happend to shearing dont they use that any more, in the books i read they used shearing erm are they out dated LOL, Don

Don,

A few issues I see with the shearling padded seat. They tend to get lumpy sometimes as the fibers go one way or the other. Pretty tight quilting patterns help prevent that some, but that also makes hard lumps between the stitch lines. THe high spots tend to wear pretty quickly. As they are used more, the wool packs down, just like it does on the skirts. Also I have seen little tufts of wool working up through the needle holes from the quilting. A guy up the hill from us used to do those shearling seats. My first wife's saddle he made is quilted pretty heavily with fancy stitching. Much like sitting on a lumpy rock. It will eat on you after a a while. One of those things you just can't bring yourself to sell though.

[JRedding]

I use very dense foam in my inlaid seats, I've used several types and brands over the years. The thought on the dense foam is it's predictable to work, doesn't change over time, and I can quilt it without it becoming the lumpy rock Bruce mentions. To me an inlaid cushion is mostly cosmetic and I'm really not concerned with it feeling padded, I beleive a well shaped seat is the key and all the padding you can stuff into one can't make poor groundwork ride well. To put one in I start with a slightly oversize piece and bevel the edges back until when put in place it bulges up through the cutout to just slightly below seat level around the outside edge, enough below seat level when the seat material itself is added it brings it to level , so it transitions from seat to cushion as smoothly as possible. I add a piece of two ounce belt lining scrap on the bottom side after the cushion is sewn in and skive the edges out well just in case someday it has to be disassembled the foam itself isn't glued to the groundseat and has to be destroyed to lift the entire seat out.

[Tosch]

I have come across Verlane's way to do it:

https://www.siegelofca.com/view_verlane.asp?id=178

Tosch

[greg gomersall]

The bulk of my inlays are done in water buffalo but I have also used (in decreasing order of popularity) stingray, pigskin, alligator , kangaroo and ostrich. I get my foam from MacMaster-Carr. It is a black quick recovery foam which is available in different thicknesses and in firmness ratings from 1 thru 10. I like my inlays on the firm side so I use an 8. I have used some different foams over the years and found the white and grey foams I had tried packed down over time, so far this stuff seems great. I have even tried a few experiments on it pushing the limits of its recoverabilty to date which it has passed supurbely.

After I cut the shape of the inlay out of the skirting I turn the seat over and using a french edger I take a 1/2" wide strip of skirting out along the edge of the seat all the way around the inlay hole the THICKNESS of the inlay leather so that everything will lay flush. I do not use a light piece under the inlay in case of future removal. My toughts on this are even if you skive the edges of this you are still altering the profile of the groundseat you spent hours shaping.

I form my inlay, glue it in, sew it, then glue the foam in and glue the entire seat in. Greg

[RyanCope]

The bulk of my inlays are done in water buffalo but I have also used (in decreasing order of popularity) stingray, pigskin, alligator , kangaroo and ostrich. I get my foam from MacMaster-Carr. It is a black quick recovery foam which is available in different thicknesses and in firmness ratings from 1 thru 10. I like my inlays on the firm side so I use an 8. I have used some different foams over the years and found the white and grey foams I had tried packed down over time, so far this stuff seems great. I have even tried a few experiments on it pushing the limits of its recoverabilty to date which it has passed supurbely.

After I cut the shape of the inlay out of the skirting I turn the seat over and using a french edger I take a 1/2" wide strip of skirting out along the edge of the seat all the way around the inlay hole the THICKNESS of the inlay leather so that everything will lay flush. I do not use a light piece under the inlay in case of future removal. My toughts on this are even if you skive the edges of this you are still altering the profile of the groundseat you spent hours shaping.

I form my inlay, glue it in, sew it, then glue the foam in and glue the entire seat in. Greg

Greg,

Do you glue your foam directly to the ground seat?

Ryan Cope

[steve mason]

here is how I put in an inlaid padded seat.

- the seat is fit and shaped final and allowed to dry

-the inlaid pattern has already been laid out, then the cut out or plug is cut with a straight knife

-the inlay leather is fit over the plug (which is on the ground seat) and the edge is shaped with a tickler, then the seat is put over the top fo the plug and inlay leather and spiked into place and I run a bouncer around the edge of the inlay to get a nice crisp edge flush with the seat

-the foam is cut large and set on the ground seat, then the seat is spiked into place and I mark out the foam just a little smaller to account for the thickness of the inlay leather

-the foam is then glued to the shaped inlay leather, I usually turn the plug upside down and and them put the grain side of the inlay against it to support it while gluing.

-then I french edge the bottom side of the seat about 1/2" to 3/4" to account for the thickness of the inlay leather

-the seat is stitch marked and the hole edge is slicked

-the inlay with the foam already glued in place is now glued to the seat

-then I stitch with my machine and trim and french edge the inlay leather smooth

-then the seat is glued to the ground seat the same as you would glue in a seat without an inlay

this is how I have done inlays for a lot of years now, like I said before I came up with this method from trial and error. If any of you have some tips to improve this method I sure would like to hear them.

[RyanCope]

Steve,

That is pretty much how I have done it for a long time. However, it recently occurred to me that I was being foolish not to put something between the pad and the ground seat.

I wondered to myself which choice words I would mutter under my breath the first time someone brought in a saddle to be repaired which would require me to take out the seat. Also, people have a tendancy to want to lift that seat jockey and look under there, possibly damaging the integrity of the foam. Now you guys have got me second guessing myself. If you put a very thin peice of leather under the foam does it really affect the shape enough for it to be an issue? I'm not sure. But hey, now I've got something new to keep me up at night! Thanks.

Ryan Cope

[Bob]

I personnally like Jim's idea of putting 2 oz belt lining leather under the foam. I got so excited about it last night I didn't sleep either .... Now what I will do is use the draw down to preshape the lining leather against the ground seat, then glue the foam to it first, with the seat in place... of course... then glue the inlay leather on top the foam, while the seat is in place.... then take out the seat and glue the inlay leather again the edges of the foam. then glue the seat to the padded inlay and sew it up. being sure to skive the lining leather before this all starts. I like this idea because the foam never seems to be the same shape when it's all done. With a lining leather under it. It can't change shape. And for the same reason as many of you suggested before. How can one ever lift that seat off for repairs without having to replace the inlaid seat as well? I think a liner is needed for that reason.

I've learned to NEVER be "hard and fast" about anything in this trade. There's always something to learn. Thanks Jim for those ideas. Greg and Steve also had some good ideas too. I'm gonna be thinking about this awhile.

I will say this one thing, and I invite feedback from all of you. I'm not sure chrome tan leathe is the end all for inlaid seats. Why? Because I think that the edge of the seat leather should not be edged and undercut with a french edger at 45 degrees. The foam only slightly thicker than the seat. Gives me a tighter fit with no spaces for dirt, twigs and leaves to gather in the crack where the inlay and seat meet. Veg tan leather will allow me to fit the leather and glue it BEST to the foam, taking shape much better than chrome tan will allow. Please bring feedback on this issue.

It's the same here as it is for many of us, learned by ossmowsis , how to do it wrong a 100 different ways. For so long, this industry has been tight lipped about how to do things. That we have to learn by trial 'n error...

Edited March 19, 2008 by Bob

[greg gomersall]

Bob we are not cutting a 45 with the french edger. We are completely removing a 1/2" wide strip of the skirting the same thickness as the inlay material so after sewing the seat is the same thickness as it was before we started. Ryan I glue the foam to the seat and then glue the seat to the groundseat. Greg

[Bob]

Bob we are not cutting a 45 with the french edger. We are completely removing a 1/2" wide strip of the skirting the same thickness as the inlay material so after sewing the seat is the same thickness as it was before we started. Ryan I glue the foam to the seat and then glue the seat to the groundseat. Greg

Greg, I understand exactly what you mean.

I will say this one thing, and I invite feedback from all of you. I'm not sure chrome tan leather is the end all for inlaid seats. Why? Because I think that the top edge of the seat leather should not be edged at all, and instead undercut with a french edger at 45 degrees, this will leave a sharp edge on the top of the seat leather. This is a good thing in my mind. Not what you normally see done. I'm not refering to the undercut Greg mentioned, to allow for the thickness of the inlay. This undercut with a small french edger will only allow the foam and inlay to fit tight against the seat leather itself, with not space in between.

Using foam thats only slightly thicker than the seat. Gives me a tighter fit with no spaces for dirt, twigs and leaves to gather in the crack where the inlay and seat meet. Veg tan leather will allow me to fit the leather and glue it BEST to the foam, taking shape much better than chrome tan will allow. Please bring feedback on this issue.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Bob

[bigprairie]

Might as well brew another pot and add another related topic to Ryan's saddle. How does everybody do a padded inlaid seat? I have done one, and was having a heck of time finding the right foam. Most was too soft for what I was looking for, or my previous experience was that some broke down. Eventually that would leave a crater. I backed up and made a buildup of 3 layers of scrap chap leather, glued each layer and then edge sewed the pad. I used elephant for the seat, figuring two things. One was that it was durable, the other was that it came pre-wrinkled. I had watched a guy put in a padded seat who had done several. Demonstrations are doomed to failure, and his roo wrinkled. Mine came out pretty decent.

Since then talking to several guys, no two are alike. Some guys use a thin backer and sandwich the padding, others stitch the seat cover in and cement the seat and pad down to the ground seat. Some guys use foam, others use a chap buildup. All techniques, tips, tricks, and trivia are welcome here.

Bruce -

I have only done 1 inlaid seat, about 4 years ago - I formed a piece of tooling leather, about 8 0z. over a padding of shearling with the fleece cut to about 1/2 inch. The shearling was shaved around the edge about 1/2 inch and sewn in, fleece side up along with the inlay leather. Finished with oil and Australian wax and after four years doesn't seem to be any packing or movement of the fleece. I'm thinking about doing it again on the saddle I am currently working on.

Ron

[Bob]

This is a couple pictures of two different saddles near completion. Both inlaid seats, done differently. The first picture has the top edge of the seat rounder off with an edger. The second picture is undercut on 45 degree angle with a french edger and NOT edged on top, leaving the seat leather fit tight up against the padded inlay.

[kseidel]

I get my foam from MacMaster-Carr. It is a black quick recovery foam which is available in different thicknesses and in firmness ratings from 1 thru 10.

Greg, What is the foam that you use for your padded seats? I am getting low on stock and am in need of a new supplier. The Co. I used has gone out of business and I can't find the same material that I got from them. It sounds a lot like what you described. Keith

[greg gomersall]

Greg, What is the foam that you use for your padded seats? I am getting low on stock and am in need of a new supplier. The Co. I used has gone out of business and I can't find the same material that I got from them. It sounds a lot like what you described. Keith

Keith I'll get the part # for you when I am at the shop tomorrow and pm you. Greg

This is a couple pictures of two different saddles near completion. Both inlaid seats, done differently. The first picture has the top edge of the seat rounder off with an edger. The second picture is undercut on 45 degree angle with a french edger and NOT edged on top, leaving the seat leather fit tight up against the padded inlay.

Bob from the looks of the photo cutting an inside 45 on an inlay may create some sewing issues? Greg

[Bob]

I've been doing it this way for many years now. Haven't had too much troubles with stitching until I tried most recently to sew with a new (different) stitcher. Thanks for your comments.

Greg, I'd sure like to learn what you use for foam. Rumour has it that Ken in Calgary is selling some good foam that has no memory.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Bob

[AndyKnight]

well I have done hundreds of inlays . the way i do themsure works for me.

1: cut the desired shape hole in the seatt.

2: edge , burnish and stitdh groove.

3: skive back side to allow for inlay leather.

4: I pre glue both sides of rough cut EV 50 foam . or Rubitex?? ( the reason is the glue causes the foam to stretch.)

allow to dry.

5 Place the foam under the seat and scribe the shape. cut. if the foam is thicker than the seat leather I will use my scratcher to " skive" it down around the edges.

6: Glue top side of foam and the inlay leather.

7: place the foam in the inlay hole on the saddle {It is usually slightly bigger than the hole but I force it in there and hold it flat}( in the seat) and holding it there attach the inlay leather to it. This ensures that the foam is filling the inlay exactly and the inlay leather now ensures the foam is held to the exact shape of the seat.

8: take it out , glue the sides of the foam and when ready to stick just fold the leather over the edge. Use a tickler to crease the fold where it will go under the seat.

9: skive the portion where it will go under the seat. Glue that and the seat , Place the inlay on the saddle then lay the seat on ensureing placement is correct. When you have it right. take it off and sew, it.

Glue the whole works down. I now glue the whole seat down front to back in one shot. I use wax paper under neath while I ensure placement is correct.

I havn't used a light piece under the foam . I just figure if I have to pull the seat I will sacrifice the inlay. I would think that a 2 oz piece under the foam would quite likely tear whan trying to pull it up. heck I have torn ground saet leather trying to pull seats!!.

Sounds like a process but I do it in half an hour or so.

Edited March 22, 2008 by AndyKnight

[raftert]

I fix alot of padded seats and use a neoprene pad. You can buy it in 1/4" increments( thickness ). This is a closed cell foam that does not absorbe water and does not have memory. It is a little expensive. but I have exellent responce from my customers. I also use a 1/2" neoprene foam in some linings.

Tim

[Todd]

Might as well brew another pot and add another related topic to Ryan's saddle. How does everybody do a padded inlaid seat? I have done one, and was having a heck of time finding the right foam. Most was too soft for what I was looking for, or my previous experience was that some broke down. Eventually that would leave a crater. I backed up and made a buildup of 3 layers of scrap chap leather, glued each layer and then edge sewed the pad. I used elephant for the seat, figuring two things. One was that it was durable, the other was that it came pre-wrinkled. I had watched a guy put in a padded seat who had done several. Demonstrations are doomed to failure, and his roo wrinkled. Mine came out pretty decent.

Since then talking to several guys, no two are alike. Some guys use a thin backer and sandwich the padding, others stitch the seat cover in and cement the seat and pad down to the ground seat. Some guys use foam, others use a chap buildup. All techniques, tips, tricks, and trivia are welcome here.

HEY BRUCE

I was having a problem with memory foam losing its memory`and peeling away from the tree after a few rides (I do glue to the groundseat). I wound up going to an upolsterer who specialized in boat seats. She sold me a role of a very high density foam material which is moisture resistent. They use it to get the tuck and rolll effect in boat seats. Its about the thickness of 15 oz skirting so segues beautifully on a saddle. I have only used it on 2 saddles so far but the first one has gone through a full season of roping without flattening out or peeling away from the seat.