Pricing custom saddles

[kseidel]

Bob, I can only tell you my experience, and I have a retail store in a prime location, so what works for me is somewhat relative to my situation as a retailer. It is easier to get wealthy clients when your business is more visible. And I think one gets more credibility as a professional with an established storefront. Not many of the wealthy will find you at your home or at the ranch.

The website adds to the package, but is only another tool in the marketing program. It gets a lot of attention, but not as many sales as I would like. We are in the process of renovating and updating it and hopefully by the first of June will have a new look and generate more sales. Thanks for the complements on the site. Check back once in a while as it is changing daily with new pix and text and eventually a new overall look.

We also publish a catalog that we can send on request. The catalog seems to be the clincher in mail order sales. But the most of our sales are made in person in the store.

My prices increased because of demand greater than the ability to produce in a timely manner. Raising the prices was supposed to slow down the orders. The opposite happened. It seems that the higher we raise the prices, the more people want the goods. The higher prices also made it possible to spend more time making the products which improved the quality even further, and drove the demand higher and subsequently the prices higher yet.

Tell me what you think. Is there more customers willing to spend 4000 than 6500?.

I am sure there are more willing to spend less, but how many can you handle? As a custom saddlemaker, I think we should be priced high enough to be above competing for the same customers that buy the discount saddles. Those of us who have highly developed skills should make a much better saddle and charge accordingly for it. It does take a lot more time to make a lot better saddle. Ford, Dodge, and GM, do not discount their trucks and we all find a way to buy what we want and need. Those horsemen who require the better quality that our premium saddles provide will pay what they cost. The factory saddle will not withstand the workload, any more than a light duty truck.

You are right that many cannot see the difference in the quality of the saddles at different prices. But they will always buy the better one if it isn't much more. If it is a lot more, they will buy the cheaper saddle, and when it fails, have to buy the more expensive one. As long as there are good saddles available for less money, they will not have to spend more, thus perpetuating the cycle of discounting prices to get customers. And all of us working hard for minimal wages.

I'm sure that there will always be "discount" saddlemakers. I would like to see the gap in pricing be greater. I think it is better to build a better saddle than your competitor, not to under price him. You can't buy the good stuff at Wal-Mart or Big R.

I hope this is a challenge to everyone and with inflation rising, it is a great opportunity to raise prices significantly.

I wish you all a better lifestyle!

Keith

[leatheroo]

hi keith, i am not a horsey person, but i was 'blown away' by your website and the absolutely beautiful work that you do...my question is how many hours does it take to make a complete saddle with no tooling and how many hours for one with 100% tooling. Do you do all the work yourself, if not how many different people would work on one saddle? As a kitchen table leatherworker i am really fascinated in projects that take longer than 'between meals" LOL

[kseidel]

Leatheroo, I usually spend 40 - 50 hours on a plain saddle, however I hardly ever make a plain one. Most are full tooled and take anywhere from 200 -300 working hours. Some of the collector saddles can take a great deal longer. Some saddles I do all of the work on myself, and others I will have help. I have one saddlemaker working for me now but have had as many as six at once in the past. If a saddle is a "group" project, one man will build the saddle and another will do the tooling. The man with me now is very talented and he and I can both work on a saddle seamlessly. We try not to do the assembly line thing, but sometimes deadlines require we all work together. My oldest daughter is eighteen and is now working in the shop. She is becoming one of my most valued workers.

Sometimes I dread starting a new saddle knowing how long it will take to complete.

[barra]

I have been reading the pricing custom saddles post and thought I would throw a few thoughts out there for either further discussion, food for thought or chucking in the scrap bin.

First of all, a brief resume detailing my involvement in the saddlery and harness trade. Upon leaving school I worked for 4 years under an old British saddler and harness maker (residing in Australia). Above his bench he had his framed certificate from the Worshipful Company of Master Saddlers. He was justified in calling himself a Master saddler. Very long story short I flew the nest after 4 years but without any “formal” Trade qualification unlike someone who did say an electrician’s apprenticeship and attended formal trade school. I thought it doesn’t matter, it is just a bit of paper and all I will have to do is show people what I can do. Now as the old master had no sewing machines, every stitch was by hand. Looking back now I am grateful that is the way I was taught. However to be competitive it was imperative I learn to use an industrial sewing machine. 23 Mar 1988 saw me enter the Airforce (yep that’s 20 years yesterday) In the field of Safety and Survival Equipment. One component of this trade uses industrial sewing machines to trim the interior of Aircraft, manufacture harnesses, repair fabric components like Parachutes and recover panels. Basically a motor trimmer but for Aircraft. I eventually ended up spending 4 years at a nationally recognised Aerospace training establishment teaching the Trade. Of course in order to teach I had to jump thru loads of Government accredited training hoops to gain formal teaching and assessing qualifications.

Back to the posts in the forum. I do not see the base price of Keith’s saddles as overly excessive. I don’t think anyone would argue that his saddles are exquisite. He has stated that his base price is $6500. Now let’s play hypothetical. We must add up the cost of his premium grade raw materials (add mark-up as he is in business and had to buy them). Add up the costs of his overheads to conduct business. He then said it takes him 40-50 hrs to make. Let’s use 40 hrs (common sort of working week). No self employed plumber, electrician, mechanic or carpenter is going to get out of bed in the morning for less than $60 (and that is being ridiculously conservative). Let’s use 60 X 40 = $2400.00 just for labour and that is for a plain saddle. Add the material/overhead costs. Add to this if a man has worked hard to build up a professional reputation he should be entitled to capitalise on his name being on a saddle.

People will gladly pay huge sums of money for a horse with the right pedigree but it is going to die and unless it has breeding/earning potential it is money that is going to turn into dust no matter how well you look after it. They will go out and buy the mega gas guzzler to pull the gooseneck Bill Gates would be proud to call home, but ahhh the saddle, how dare the saddler expect decent recompence.

I am now going to randomly pluck some comments out of the forum thus far.

From Steve Mason

compare our rates to other tradesmen, think about what your mechanic or plumber charges you per hour, I'll bet most of us are not getting paid what those tradesmen are.

From Keith

“We will not see young people coming into this trade and working hard to develop the finer skills if they cannot earn a decent wage”.

I feel that if you are a trained, qualified and experienced saddle maker, that you should be able to make a comparable wage to to other skilled tradesmen.

These comments are quite valid but why are they so true?

In Australia too many people throw out the I’m a qualified saddler/master saddler. I can see where people can get the best training on offer and eventually become very experienced but where does a kid contemplating entering the saddlery trade gain a formal qualification in the same sense as the mechanic, electrician, plumber or the formal bit of paper to frame on the wall like the kid with the degree.

During the last 30 years or so society has sort of implied that unless you have a university degree you are almost less than a successful human being. Because of that trend there is now a Massive skills shortage in the traditional trades. The kid who did break from the norm and enter a trade is now what is called in Australia

“A cashed up Bogan” See attached story.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/swagell090606.html

In other words they can charge what the heck they like and they now drive the Mercedes, BMW and Porche. Why can’t the saddler expect to make a decent living too.

I also feel the trade needs to move towards formalising training just like the other trades. I just feel the kid misses out on something if they don’t get to hang up the shingle like their mates even if the training is impeccable or they become very experienced. This is one aspect I feel the British have it over the rest of us.

http://www.saddlerytraining.com/

http://www.capel.ac.uk/Courses/Saddlery/Co...loma_020776.htm

Barra

[mulefool]

With folks spending 40,000 on a new truck, 4000 for a new saddle seems like peanuts. There's a pretty famous old photo out there of a cowboy with his new saddle on a pretty sad looking pony that is captioned something like a "forty dollar saddle on a ten dollar horse."

[Doug Mclean]

Thanks to you Bob for starting another topic of such importance. This is as important to a young saddle maker as any aspect of the business. I realize jumping in on this conversation is like coaching from the bleachers, but I lived this life for 10 years and made most of these mistakes in person.

Keith you touched on it when you said you have a store front location. Location Location Location. The other thing is market analysis. If you want to sell $6500.00 saddles you have to get them in front of people with $6500.00 in their pocket. We have so many tools now that were not well known to us in the 80's if they were available at all. The market shows were available I'm not sure about these trade gatherings??? The trade shows at major events, where a person can get their work out in the public eye. The internet has become a major tool. The great thing with the internet, It is available to everyone. One comment on the web sites. You need to get someone involved who understands how to organize your site in such a way that it will be picked up by the search engines.

Getting back to the point. This is a very broad topic that deserves a lot of attention. Marketing your product and organizing your business goals are as important as any other aspect of the trade. Placing your prices high will not in itself make you a success, nor will being the cheapest.

I'm a part time saddle maker and probably more of the problem than the cure. I have always said to young people that ask about getting started in the saddle business. Go work for someone and learn the trade.

Doug McLean

[raftert]

Kieth,

My store will be open now a year. To make sure I could pay the bills I do all kind of work like Bible covers, belts, table coverings and lots of saddle repair. I have been hand sewing everything. My buisness has been growing and I am behind in orders and have just bought a sewing machine. The saddles I have built (6) have been very good quality, plain, with things on it that working Cowboys need. I was a ranch manager for 15 years so I had installed diffrent things on my saddle that alot of the Hands in my area like.

In that short paragraph you have found mistakes that I have made and maybe you could point out some diffrent trails I could go.

I cannot keep the saddles I make in the store because the sell while I am making them, but I have alot of cheap saddles also plus a pretty full line of other tack.

The question I am asking should I slow down on small leather work and consentrate on custom saddles or find that balance, either way I want my buisness to grow.

Tim

[kseidel]

Tim,

Tough question to answer. You have to do what makes enough money to survive first. As finances allow, schedule time to make what you want. It is hard to be true to an ideal when you have to make a living. Your customers can and will dictate the direction that your business will take, and to some degree you have to do what sells. I think my best advice would be to remember to make a profit. Sometimes little stuff can be more profitable than saddles. For me, belts became much more profitable than anything else. And the added buckle sales made them too good to quit. There became a point where I had to decide if I wiuld be a belt maker and give up on saddles. I had doubled the belt prices to slow down the orders and make more time for saddles, but the orders increased! I was able to hire some help to make the belts so that I could get back to the saddle orders, but the profit was not there. So I had to raise the prices of the saddles to be in line with the belts for profit. Since the prices were higher, I felt that I should make them better, and so spent a bit more time on them (making them better, but reducing profit again). Then the orders increased for saddles. Eventually there were too many orders to fill for the hours available. That led to hiring more help. As the quality increased, the availability of qualified help decreased. Leaving me to work double shifts to keep up with the orders and still run the ever increasing retail store. At some point you don't have a life outside of your store and when you have a day off you are too tired to enjoy it. But you can afford a better lifestyle.

Your retail store can subsidize your shop and allow you to work on developing new skills without having to charge for the actual time spent. You will have to weigh the profit against your personal development and find a balance that you can afford. You can make a lot of money on repairs and can usually hire someone to do them for you. I recomend it. They will certainly make their pay and soon make you profit. But they free you to do things that they cannot, allowing you time to make "bigger" things. Try to make things that you want to have in your store. People buy what they see. If they only see little stuff, you will be overrun with orders on little stuff. If you stock other items that you want to make, you will get orders for them. Listen to what your customers want, but don't let them control your store.

I hope this helps to answer your question, and I wish you great success!

Keith

[Bob]

Keith, your exactly right. Thats the struggle many of us deal with balancing this with that. Getting pulled in every direction. There could be a book written on this subject. "The challanges of being self employment in a saddle shop"

What a great idea and title. Someone should take up this. In case you don't have enought to do. LOLOL

[TwinOaks]

Bob, you're on to a pretty good idea about the book. I have a suggestion to make about it. Instead of one person writing it, which would give only one perspective, let's see if Johanna or one of the moderating team can archive these posts. The posts from individual members could then be grouped, and categorized by specific subject (pricing, design, customer service, etc.) and the entire thread ocnverted to downloadable .PDF. The result would be a Leatherworker.net E-book. And since I'm sure the Mods don't have enough to do, this could be done in just a few days..

Seriously, though, I'll offer my assistance if anyone wants to do it. I'm by no means a professional Editor, but if I can help, I will.

Mike