Taking possession of a customer's firearm

[DCKNIVES]

I agree with Mike.I do one off customs as well, so I usually need the gun as replicas aren't available.I have never any issues with customers leaving thier guns, and its only for a couple of days anyway.Dave

[Shorts]

I don't sweat using a customer's gun. What I don't like is the actually dropping off/picking up process. I don't have a storefront so that means they have to come here to the house or I have to meet them in the area. I want to make sure that no matter where I am, if I'm meeting with a customer I have to present a professional and competent foot forward. It puts them at ease. I know they're probably a bit nervous leaving their baby with someone else. I am the same way.

I think it goes without saying that once a customer hands me his gun it is now my responsibility and I will handle it as if it were my own. As for being handed a loaded firearm, that's why whenever you pick up any firearm you are suppose to check the chamber and clear it for yourself before doing anything else. Rules are Rules and you don't neglect them just because you're not at the range or out on the land. A loaded gun shouldn't be a surprise or a scare; it should be a reassurance to you and the due diligence you place on firearms handling. Our guns are always loaded. I'm sure those unfamiliar with them would be more than surprised and shocked about that. But to us it isn't out of the ordinary.

A written receipt sounds like a good idea to give to a customer in exchange for his/her firearm. Hand them one if your business cards as well. Give them a description of the process and an estimate of how long it may take. I'm fairly laid back in my views to how complicated or regulated this should be. In small instances, things happen. If that's the case, make it right. It could be an expensive endeavor. But it shouldn't take an act of an incompetent congress to do it.

[JoelR]

Well, here is some backround for Pennsylvania:

It is unlawful to lend, give, or otherwise transfer a handgun unless exempted by law or by following the procedure previously described [through a licensed dealer or county sheriff, between active LEOs, immediate family members, etc.]. Exempted is a person who receives the handgun and has a license to carry or who is engaged in a Pennsylvania Game Commission or NRA hunter safety, firearm training, or competition program or who is engaged in hunting or trapping. Also exempted is the loaning or giving of a handgun to another person who will remain within the transferor's dwelling or place of business, a transfer to carry out a bequest or intestate succession, and a person under 18 who is under the direct supervision of a responsible person at least 21.

That all being said, without my CCW, it is technically illegal for me to take temporary posession of another person's handgun in Pennsylvania. So, this goes to LOBO's point of "Know your local and state laws".

Another point to consider, althogh VERY rare, what happens if the person you have taken temporary posession from either dies or becomes otherwise incapacitated/inelegible to take back posession of their handgun (incarceration, PFA order, hospitalization, etc). You COULD then become legally required to ensure that the handgun is given to another individual who has the legal right to posses it - within reason. Obviously, you would have no knowledge of a restraining order issued against one of your customers unless you were visited by a LEO to take posession of the handgun (and I would very much prefer to have something in writing stating that you followed the laws with regards to the temporary transfer to hand to the officer if asked).

Yes, I know I am picking at straws, but there can be very real legal ramifications to taking temporary posession of another's handgun. Hence, the reason I began the discussion. Wanted to see what others had come up with.

Oh, and my Jaw-Drop was due to the neglegence of the firearm owner. They should assume the receiving party is incompetent and ensure the handgun is unloaded before handing it over. I would not hesitate in checking the chamber after being handed a firearm even if it was just checked by the person previously in posession. You know why S&W put an internal decocker in their M&P line? Police chief's were tired of repairing holes in their ceilings from "unloaded" Glocks being disassembled for cleaning... Well, that's the rumor anyway...

Edited October 8, 2009 by JoelR

[Lobo]

You are not "picking at straws", sir. You are following a course of inquiry so as to protect yourself from unnecessary legal concerns.

There are overly-aggressive LEO's, as well as prosecutors, who might put you into the position of needing a lawyer, a bail bondsman, and very deep pockets to support them. Why let that happen when it can so easily be avoided?

Even as a retired cop I do not expect any public official to act reasonably, logically, or even sensibly in every case.

Best regards.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

You know why S&W put an internal decocker in their M&P line?

To cater to those with incompetent gun handling skills....

[Shorts]

To cater to those with incompetent gun handling skills....

No no, it's for those 'professional enough'

[JoelR]

Thank you all for your insites. As I really did not start this discussion with the intent of discussing the LEGALITY with regards to local and state laws and lending/loaning/temporarilly transfering handguns the conversation was well appreciated. I believe after reviewing all points that I will simply come up with a sheet that acts as receipt for the owner and acknowledging that they voluntarily loaned the firearm for the purpose of having something custom make for it. Something like:

I, the undersigned, acknowledge that a firearm recognized as _______________________(make and model) posessing the serial number __________ was temporarily loaned to ___________________ with the express purpose of designing a custom leather holster and/or other related accessories. I acknowledge that I am the current legal owner of the above firearm. I have confirmed that ______________________ posesses a current license to carry permit issued by the state of Pennsylvania and is therefore legally allowed to take temporary posession of said firearm under current Federal and State laws.

(sign)____________________________________ (date)__________ (print)________________________________

(firearm owner)

(sign)____________________________________ (date)__________ (print)________________________________

(maker)

[katsass]

You are not "picking at straws", sir. You are following a course of inquiry so as to protect yourself from unnecessary legal concerns.

There are overly-aggressive LEO's, as well as prosecutors, who might put you into the position of needing a lawyer, a bail bondsman, and very deep pockets to support them. Why let that happen when it can so easily be avoided?

Even as a retired cop I do not expect any public official to act reasonably, logically, or even sensibly in every case.

Best regards.

LOBO, I couldn't agree with you more! Back when I started in Law Enforcement we seldom had more than 7 men on shift to cover the 2250 square miles of sparsely inhabited desert. You had better use some common sense, reason and logic when dealing with a situation. Now the kids have to call in a 'tracker' to follow footprints thru the sagebrush a quarter mile. It was time to get out...after 35 yrs. Mike

Edited October 8, 2009 by katsass

[gunmaker]

Regardless of your state laws, federal law prohibits receiving a firearm across state lines assuming you're not a licensed firearms dealer/manufacturer.

Licensed firearms dealers can receive shipped firearms from clients anywhere in the US and can return directly to them after work is done without the owner having to ship through a dealer in their state.

Don't ever try to mail a pistol.

[Steve75]

I have been handling firearms sense I was 7 years old. My Dad taught me from the very beginning if I was handing a firearm to him that he expected the action to be open, or the cylinder to be flipped out of the frame. He taught me so well that I will not accept a weapon in any other manner. This was reinforced at the Police Academy when I surrendered my sidearm for inspection.

As to the idea of accepting possession of a weapon for the purpose of constructing a custom holster-not something I would do. I like the idea of getting the initial drawing and dimensions as Mike said. When it is time to form the holster to the weapon I would make a time when the person could come over with the pistol and allow the fitting work in his presence. If that is not possible then I would find a replica of the weapon to complete the project. I like being a law abiding home owner to much to risk having a person's pistol even over night. This is my .02 worth, but then I am only getting into this as a hobby at this point.