Anyone run into this scam?

[CitizenKate]

Last week someone sent me a PM on Etsy, inquiring about the availability of one of my chair seats. Replied, it is available. He replied, I want to pay by check. Can you send me the total with shipping to my email address (which he provided), along with the address I should send the check to. I thought, a little unusual, but I do accept checks (or I did until this happened), so I sent him the information.

Then, he says he wants to use his own shipper, and he will send me money to pay his shipper. I should cash the check as soon as I get it, and he'll send his shipper for the package. Come again??? I think not!

I declined the deal, but he has already sent the check and is still trying to get me to go through with it. I've been checking into this, and this looks to me like the type of scam where a person posing as a buyer, sends a check for way over the amount due for the order, then asks the seller to send him (or in this case, his "shipper") the extra. The check then bounces, the bank takes the money out of my account, and I'm out the money and the item.

Have any of you run into this? I'm not worried about him getting my money, because there's no way I'm going to cash the check. At this point, I'm just trying to find out the best course of action to get them to go away and leave me alone. You guys in law enforcement... any advice?

Kate

[Denster]

Two options Kate. First tell him there is a two week delay on shipping for personal checks to clear that is pretty much standard anyway. If he balks or you don't want to risk the returned check fee if your bank charges one then just send the check back as a return to sender unopened and tell him to get lost.

[Spence]

That's a favorite scam in the dog breeder world. If you get the check, it might be a good idea to take it, along with all of the correspondence to your District Attorney. Also, if they've sent the check and you do not respond, they may try to put pressure on you or threaten you. Again, if this happens, take it to the D.A.

The actual chances of someone coming to your door in the dead of night is extremely low because they are all in Nigeria.

[rcsaddles]

This is an oldie but a goodie. People fall for this one all the time. My old neighbor, who was a Deputy and her husband was a Deputy, had a son who listed a motorcycle for sale. Guy wants to buy it, will send the money to have a couple dents removed, repainted and a shipper pick it up. Wants to send a check to cover all costs and a little extra.

DO NOT fall for it. You might contact local law enforcement to see if they want to set up to arrest the shipper when he comes to pick it up. Of course he will say he has no idea who sent the money. He is only the shipper.

Let us know what happens.

[Art]

Yes, except with credit cards. Card gets through but usually gets charged back 30 or more days later. They always want you to wire money to the shipper. This is a scam that is currently in vogue, and they get their victims from your website. If you bite once, they will generally follow-up with another very quickly, usually for a larger amount. Any time they want you to send any money anywhere, it is a scam. They don't want your merchandise (which can be traced through shipping), they want your money (if it is cash, wire, or western union the trail run cold fast). Always make sure Names, Addresses, and cc numbers match, call the cc company to match names on cc. For big tickets they will use multiple cc, sometimes with consecutive numbers. The bottom line is that if they know you won't play, they cross you off their list.

Art

Last week someone sent me a PM on Etsy, inquiring about the availability of one of my chair seats. Replied, it is available. He replied, I want to pay by check. Can you send me the total with shipping to my email address (which he provided), along with the address I should send the check to. I thought, a little unusual, but I do accept checks (or I did until this happened), so I sent him the information.

Then, he says he wants to use his own shipper, and he will send me money to pay his shipper. I should cash the check as soon as I get it, and he'll send his shipper for the package. Come again??? I think not!

I declined the deal, but he has already sent the check and is still trying to get me to go through with it. I've been checking into this, and this looks to me like the type of scam where a person posing as a buyer, sends a check for way over the amount due for the order, then asks the seller to send him (or in this case, his "shipper") the extra. The check then bounces, the bank takes the money out of my account, and I'm out the money and the item.

Have any of you run into this? I'm not worried about him getting my money, because there's no way I'm going to cash the check. At this point, I'm just trying to find out the best course of action to get them to go away and leave me alone. You guys in law enforcement... any advice?

Kate

[Casey Jordan]

A guy tried this with me on some truck rims he wanted shipped to Ohio. I had heard about the scam before so I was ready.

So for the address I looked up the Phoenix Police address and put ATTN: Phoenix Police Fraud Department.

Never heard from him again, now that's strange! He sure was in a hurry to get them shipped.

[Denster]

From what Kate described this is a personal check not a credit card and no other money is involved outside of product and shipping costs for the customers desired shipper. It may be a little odd but not neccesarily criminal. There is no probable cause for an arrest until the check bounces. As to arresting the shipper. Again no probable cause and in any case what if the shipper is UPS or FedEx with a call tag. Remember the shipper has to be knowingly involved in a criminal scheme to be arrested. I still maintain the original options. The customer, if legit, will not balk at time for the check to clear as that is pretty much accepted business practice. If you cash the check and it bounces then turn it over to LE. In any case do not ship till the money is solidly in your account.

[CitizenKate]

From what Kate described this is a personal check not a credit card and no other money is involved outside of product and shipping costs for the customers desired shipper.

That is yet to be seen. It depends on the amount of the check. If the check is for an amount much more than what I normally charge for the item plus shipping, that will be yet another sign. (Assuming I plan to open the letter, which I don't.)

It may be a little odd but not neccesarily criminal. There is no probable cause for an arrest until the check bounces. As to arresting the shipper. Again no probable cause and in any case what if the shipper is UPS or FedEx with a call tag. Remember the shipper has to be knowingly involved in a criminal scheme to be arrested. I still maintain the original options.

Exactly, law enforcement can't get involved until something criminal actually takes place, and so far, nothing has. But that doesn't mean I have to deal with him. Whether he's trying to scam me, or just create a lot of hassles, this isn't going to be worth the trouble. So the current plan is to follow your earlier suggestion of sending the letter back unopened.

One thing that makes this more than a little odd is that the customer wants me to pay his shipper. Normally when a 3rd-party shipper is involved, the shipper bills the buyer, not the seller. I've done deals like this before with no problems, but it is a hassle.

The customer, if legit, will not balk at time for the check to clear as that is pretty much accepted business practice. If you cash the check and it bounces then turn it over to LE. In any case do not ship till the money is solidly in your account.

That's just it, he's not willing to wait, even though I've told him the item is made to order, and I need two weeks to make it. He doesn't seem to care that he's trying to schedule his shipper to arrive well before there is even anything to be shipped. Yep, you could say that's a little odd, alright.

Kate

[Denster]

Kate

Ahhh! that is an entirely different ball of wax. From what you just stated plan B is the best option followed by a hearty "get lost dude"

[esantoro]

forward one of your Etsy convos with this person to abuse [AT] etsy.com. Etsy admin will immediately cancel this person's account. I would just ignore all future emails/convos of the same nature.

Usually this is done with a cashier's check and not a personal check. In either case, you can contact the issuing bank and have them run the routing number, account number, and check number to confirm that everything is legit.

[electrathon]

The trouble with waiting for the chack to clear is that it will clear, and they will put the money in your account. Then about 2 months from now they will find out it is a very good forged check. Sometimes even the banks can not tell. Then they will subtract the money from your account. You are out your stuff and the money.

[TexasJack]

This scam hit another message board (knifemakers) about 2 years ago. It was run overseas and a couple of people lost money on it before they understood it was a scam. Like all con artist, they prey on your greed - a quick sale, usually for something expensive, maybe even a bunch of items at once (like 10 knives). They act like they're actually putting the money in your hand.

If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.

An alternative is to say that they'll send a check for more than the amount of the items and you can just send the change after shipping costs. They end up with the merchandise and some of your cash; you wind up with nothing.

Just to make this scam 'special', rumor has it that it's in the Al Qaida handbook as a means of raising cash.

[cdthayer]

That is yet to be seen. It depends on the amount of the check. If the check is for an amount much more than what I normally charge for the item plus shipping, that will be yet another sign. (Assuming I plan to open the letter, which I don't.)

Exactly, law enforcement can't get involved until something criminal actually takes place, and so far, nothing has. But that doesn't mean I have to deal with him. Whether he's trying to scam me, or just create a lot of hassles, this isn't going to be worth the trouble. So the current plan is to follow your earlier suggestion of sending the letter back unopened.

Kate

What's the reason for not opening the letter that has the check in it? If you plan to return it to the sender without incurring additional postage, chances are, if it's a scam, there either won't be a return address on the envelope, or the one that's on it is not the scammer's address anyway. You may end up paying additional postage when it gets returned to you "address unknown". You may be the only real person the Post Office can find to pay for the letter traveling through the system back and forth. I'm not sure that's how it would work, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Also, it seems like you'll need to see the check to know for sure that your suspicions are correct. And, wouldn't you want to keep the check, not cashing or depositing it of course, to have evidence in-hand if the scammer doesn't leave you alone after you tell them that you're not accepting payment that way? I'd write VOID across the front of it, put both the envelope and check in my drawer, and tell the buyer that the check has been rendered useless. I don't think that you're accepting payment by check until the check is cashed or deposited, are you? I think I'd hang onto it in case I needed to take the situation to the DA.

CD in Oklahoma

thayerrags.com

[CitizenKate]

Good point, CD. Actually, I'm thinking of just calling the DA's office and asking them what they think my best course of action is at this point. If I'm asking everyone's opinion, I might as well get theirs, too.

Kate

[Storm]

I have done business with personal checks and the client was already aware of two things.

1. Nothing is going to happen until their check clears.

2. I arrange for shipping and insurance of the item or items.

Also I might want to think about changing banks. If someone sends me a check and it bounces it goes back on them and not me.  The bank would in no way be deducting money from a personal account after the check had bounced. By the fact that their stating that the check has bounced means you are not getting a dime and for them to deduct the ammount of the check from your account does not seem legal or correct.

[Go2Tex]

I have done business with personal checks and the client was already aware of two things.

1. Nothing is going to happen until their check clears.

2. I arrange for shipping and insurance of the item or items.

Also I might want to think about changing banks. If someone sends me a check and it bounces it goes back on them and not me.  The bank would in no way be deducting money from a personal account after the check had bounced. By the fact that their stating that the check has bounced means you are not getting a dime and for them to deduct the ammount of the check from your account does not seem legal or correct.

This all sounds good but let's not forget, we're talking about banks. They sure as heck are not going to take the hit for a bad check. If there is no way to trace it back to the issuing bank, guess what. You get stuck. Now, you could fight it and maybe you'd win down the road after much more hassle and expense but who knows?

Personal checks are a big no-no unless you know and trust the customer, and cashiers checks aren't much better, but you could ask your bank to contact the issuing bank and verify funds. Now, I suppose, the number on the phoney check could also be answered by a phoney bank person and they'd say the check is good, surprise. But you could also ask your bank right then what happens when and if it turns out to be bad. Don't know if they all do it, but if not, I might start looking for a bank that would. But, put yourself in your bank's shoes. You don't trust the check and you are now trying to pass the risk onto your bank. If you were the bank, would you accept the risk?

Next best thing is a wire transfer. Much more hassle and I suspect not totally safe either but on big ticket items, particularly internationally, eh....so far so good.

Nothing is 100% safe. You could deal in nothing but cold, hard cash and then one day you take a counterfeit bill. You get stuck, my friend.

[Denise]

I'm surprised you guys are saying cashier's cheques are not much better than personal cheques. I would have thought they were the same things as our money orders. As soon as we purchase one, the money is taken out of our account by the bank. (Or you buy them at the post office with cash or debit.) No money, no money order. So they are very safe, though not 100% since criminals seem to be pretty smart about how they get around the law. Could you please explain more to me about how your cashier's cheques work? Thanks.

[Go2Tex]

I'm surprised you guys are saying cashier's cheques are not much better than personal cheques. I would have thought they were the same things as our money orders. As soon as we purchase one, the money is taken out of our account by the bank. (Or you buy them at the post office with cash or debit.) No money, no money order. So they are very safe, though not 100% since criminals seem to be pretty smart about how they get around the law. Could you please explain more to me about how your cashier's cheques work? Thanks.

Well, the reason I say that is from what I've heard, not experienced first hand. But, apparently they can be fraudulent as well. I don't know exactly what the difference is, other than they are harder to counterfeit and perhaps your bank might honor them when they wouldn't honor a personal check that turns out to be a fraud. I just really don't know that for certain. There might be an agreement between banks on cashier's checks but on that I just can't say for sure. I would like to know that myself and hopefully someone on the forum knows and will chime in.

[Storm]

This all sounds good but let's not forget, we're talking about banks. They sure as heck are not going to take the hit for a bad check. If there is no way to trace it back to the issuing bank, guess what. You get stuck. Now, you could fight it and maybe you'd win down the road after much more hassle and expense but who knows?

Personal checks are a big no-no unless you know and trust the customer, and cashiers checks aren't much better, but you could ask your bank to contact the issuing bank and verify funds. Now, I suppose, the number on the phoney check could also be answered by a phoney bank person and they'd say the check is good, surprise. But you could also ask your bank right then what happens when and if it turns out to be bad. Don't know if they all do it, but if not, I might start looking for a bank that would. But, put yourself in your bank's shoes. You don't trust the check and you are now trying to pass the risk onto your bank. If you were the bank, would you accept the risk?

Next best thing is a wire transfer. Much more hassle and I suspect not totally safe either but on big ticket items, particularly internationally, eh....so far so good.

Nothing is 100% safe. You could deal in nothing but cold, hard cash and then one day you take a counterfeit bill. You get stuck, my friend.

I know where you are trying to go with this but there are fake checks, funny money and credit card fraud. Some jerk just stole my debit/credit card(Wells Fargo) and ran over $400 on it in less than an hour and a half in a city over 500 miles north of my place. I got an immediate call from my bank and they cancelled the card. They had a card with my number and someone elses name on it and the correct ID to go with the name. I was reimbursed to my account for all charges made. I am truely sorry for the two businesses involved but no one should be held accountable for someone stealing their information.

We have been given bad checks in the past and they, to use the vernacular, Bounced Like A Rubber Ball! However it is not the policy of a reputable bank to punish the person recieving the bad check but the person who has issued that bad check. On what do I base this comment beside my own experience? My wife has been in banking for over 30 years.

I know this is something that bites at all of heels of those of us who do business but a bit of logic must come into play. If you have been doing business through the mail then I would say the person to contact is the US Postal Service as this may very well be considered mail fraud. Regardless of the method of payment it is so very important to make sure the instrument of transaction has cleared and the cold hard cash is in your bank account. Kind of makes you not want to do long distance business doesn't it? But sometimes cash and carry is not always possible. 

[Johanna]

With a decent printer and good paper stock, you can make any kind of check or M.O. you want. In Ohio, if I deposit a bad check in my account, the amount is deducted from my account when it fails to clear. I then have the option of going to the sherrif with the bad check and filing charges, because writing a check is a promise to pay. If the check is a fraud, they can add more charges if/when they arrest the person.

True story:

I received a $50 Canadian bill in the mail from a respectable saddlemaker one day. I'd never seen one before, but I knew it was good. I walked across the street to my bank. They had to call another branch, and they didn't know whose portrait was on the bill or how much the exchange rate was. I said to just deposit it, and left. They called me later to tell me the amount of the deposit after they sent it to their sister bank for verification. Canada is on the other side of Toledo, 2 hours from here.

Another true story:

A customer wrote us a check that bounced when he put a "hold" on the check after picking up his item. The bank told us "so sorry" but didn't do anything. Luckily, we knew where the guy lived and were able to confront him in person about the check when we saw him at a party a few weeks later. Coincidentally, he was bragging about his new saddlebags when Little Jon cut them off his bike and walked away with them. He didn't call the police- what was he going to say in court when we showed the bounced check? He didn't try to get the bags back, either. Little Jon was not a man to fight with.

Johanna

[Storm]

With a decent printer and good paper stock, you can make any kind of check or M.O. you want.  In Ohio, if I deposit a bad check in my account, the amount is deducted from my account when it fails to clear.  I then have the option of going to the sherrif with the bad check and filing charges, because writing a check is a promise to pay.  If the check is a fraud, they can add more charges if/when they arrest the person.  

True story:

I received a $50 Canadian bill in the mail from a respectable saddlemaker one day. I'd never seen one before, but I knew it was good.  I walked across the street to my bank.  They had to call another branch, and they didn't know whose portrait was on the bill or how much the exchange rate was.  I said to just deposit it, and left.  They called me later to tell me the amount of the deposit after they sent it to their sister bank for verification.  Canada is on the other side of Toledo, 2 hours from here.

Another true story:

A customer wrote us a check that bounced when he put a "hold" on the check after picking up his item.  The bank told us "so sorry" but didn't do anything.  Luckily, we knew where the guy lived and were able to confront him in person about the check when we saw him at a party a few weeks later.  Coincidentally, he was bragging about his new saddlebags when Little Jon cut them off his bike and walked away with them.  He didn't call the police- what was he going to say in court when we showed the bounced check?  He didn't try to get the bags back, either.  Little Jon was not a man to fight with.

Johanna

Johanna

If that is true about your bank pulling that then that is not a bank but a bunch of crooks! I mean that seriously.

On the  other  hand I love the story about cutting off the saddle bags. I did something similar to that years ago to a guy who hand me make him a custom pair of fur lined boots. Sometimes revenge can be so sweet.

[JohnBarton]

Y'all need to be careful on any kind of checks from people you don't know. I think it's a Federal Law that banks can debit your account for any checks deemed to be fraudulent or otherwise disputed up to ONE YEAR from the date of deposit. You don't get to tell your side of it - they debit the account and send the money BACK to the account the check was issued against.

When you complain they tell you to take it up with the person who wrote the check. And on top of it they charge YOU for this. About $35.

Ask your bank about it and see if I am right. This floored me when my bank told me about it years ago.

Since then I only take checks from people I feel really good about.

as for the topic. Anytime someone wants to do these complicated payment schemes tell them to hit the road.

Another one you really really need to watch out for is the double PayPal payment.

In this one the buyer asks if he can pay you through two PayPal accounts. You being the gracious and hungry seller say SURE send me the money by as many as you have......

So they send you a small amount in the first payment and put a note that it's for the goods. Then they send you the balance from another account.

Then once they have the goods they file a complaint on the larger amount saying that they never got the goods, was fraudulent, etc... PayPal pulls the larger amount out of your PP account and gives it back. You are then stuck trying to prove you sent the goods and explain what happened and they are long gone with your product and your money. I believe that PP has since dome something about this sort of fraud but I don't know what it is.

There is a website I came across a while back and I can't remember the name of it but it's dedicated to showing off people's efforts to jack the scammers. They post pictures of the scammers holding up signs that say things like "I am an idiot" and things worse than that. The scammers think that they have a sucker and they send pictures holding up signs with these phrases to "prove" to the "sucker" that they are real. It funny and brutal at the same time. If anyone knows the site please post it. Warning though it's explicit.

[JohnBarton]

Believe me Johanna is right on the money. I used to use a service that would send people an email with a "check" attached. They could print this check on their normal printer and take it to the bank and the banks accepted them EVERY TIME. Their OCR (Optical Character Recognition) readers could recognize the acount and routing numbers and that's all the bank cared about.

20/20 or Nightline or one of those shows did a special where they opened a real account and then went to the Office store and bought the check paper and made their own checks. EVERYTHING on teh check was wrong EXCEPT for the account number and routing number. Then they sent people to the bank where the account was drawn on and cashed these fake checks. Then they sent people to other banks and deposited or cashed the wacky checks there.

None of the banks - national brand banks - wanted to comment.

Cashier's Checks, Money Orders, Traveler's Check and of course currency are all regularly counterfeited. All of us in business either have or will come across scammers at some point. I have lost about $10,000 in money and goods over the past 20 years through various schemes and from just trusting losers.

Right now I am trying to collect $650 from a customer. :-( That one wasn't a scam though, just me being too trusting and the guy turning out to be flaky. He bought two cases previously without a hitch. Third time I trusted him for the money instead of getting it in advance and sure enough - no money.

[Go2Tex]

Believe me Johanna is right on the money. I used to use a service that would send people an email with a "check" attached. They could print this check on their normal printer and take it to the bank and the banks accepted them EVERY TIME. Their OCR (Optical Character Recognition) readers could recognize the acount and routing numbers and that's all the bank cared about.

Oh yeah, of course the banks accept them because they have you, the account owner, on the hook to make it good. They really have no skin in the game.

There is a reason why Jesse James was such a folk hero of his time with the "folks". heh heh. He robbed banks.

But, as long as we're bashing banks, if you have no other reason to dislike their practices, just consider the interest rate scam they all run. Compare the rate they are willing to pay to use your money, (i.e. interest on your various accounts), and the interest they want to charge you to use their money in the form of a loan. The difference is staggering. Obviously, they have overhead and such and blah blah blah. But, really, 600% mark-up?

[CitizenKate]

forward one of your Etsy convos with this person to abuse [AT] etsy.com. Etsy admin will immediately cancel this person's account. I would just ignore all future emails/convos of the same nature.

I actually did this the day I got the first message, and they immediately banned him. Then, I got ANOTHER one on Wednesday, and without even replying this time, I turned him in, too. They're getting easier to spot...

Hello seller

Am <user name>, from WASHINGTON [...yeah, right] so i will like to purchase your item from etsy. so i will like to ask you some question about your item...

How much is the last price your item [You read the listing, didn't you?]

Will you like to recieve cashier cheque as payment [Read the listing. No.]

why do you want to sell it [That's a good one... duh, to make some money?]

Are you the true owner of the item [No, man, I just sell other people's stuff.]

if so you can mail me true this email..... <email address> [!at] yahoo.com

Etsy informed me this person had multiple accounts and was spamming hundreds of sellers; all those accounts were immediately shut down.

As to the question of how banks work in cases of credit card or check fraud, they do hold whomever accepted the transaction liable in the case of a fraudulent transaction. You may not think that is fair or legal, but not only is it legal, it is normal procedure for even the most "reputable" banks.

Think about it - whatever they do, it's going to be unfair to someone, whether it's the business who accepted a fraudulent credit card transaction or the independent artisan who accepted a bad check. For that matter, it's really no more fair to expect the banks to eat fraudulent transactions, because they are no more responsible for what happened than the person who accepted the transaction, maybe even less so. But the person who is primarily responsible for the fraud is nowhere to be found.

So in view of that bit of harsh reality, it is incumbent on us as business people to be careful who we do business with, and how we conduct business to protect ourselves.

Back to my original post... it's been 10 days now since the first guy said he sent the check, and I haven't seen it, nor have I heard from him, so it looks like he was lying about having sent the check and meanwhile has moved on to greener pastures.

Thanks for your input, everyone. Hopefully, a lot more of us are aware of this and will know how to avoid getting duped by these schmucks.

Kate