Good Ranch Saddle

[Weazer]

I'm in the market for a good ranch/trail saddle and need some advise. I recently went Elk Hunting and the outfitter had a Colorado Saddlery Continental Divide that I loved. Started looking and stumbled across this website. Found out that they are made in a prison and use Hadcock and Fox trees. Found out that most of you think those trees are junk. I've owned a Billy Cook trainer, older well built, but not what I wanted so I sold it. I purchased a SRS with a 7 inch gullet width but it was too wide for one of my horses. I am currently using my wife's Tucker, but it is too fufu. I have also ridden in Teskey's, Vinton and some Martins that were decent, but once again, most on this site are really down on rack, production saddles. I am considering working with a custom or semi custom saddle maker to build or sell me a saddle. However, I don't want to waste anymore money. I'd like to get it right this time. I only want to spend 1,500 to 2,000 dollars. It would appear that several of you agree that timberline saddle trees are good production trees. Are there any saddles made on these trees that can be purchased off the rack or ordered in my price range? Or, is there a saddle maker who can make a saddle in this price range that is custom or semi custom. Your comments and advice is appreciated.

[jwwright]

Weazer...........I don't know of any true handmade saddle makers that have a base price in the range you mentioned. There very well may be some, but none I am familiar with. For a new saddle in that price, you are looking at production saddles.....but that might work for you. However, while I do know of several production/ semi custom operations that build on Timberline trees.......again, none in the price range you listed. I guess my best advice would be, for the money you wish to spend, is a good used saddle. JW

[Weazer]

Weazer...........I don't know of any true handmade saddle makers that have a base price in the range you mentioned. There very well may be some, but none I am familiar with. For a new saddle in that price, you are looking at production saddles.....but that might work for you. However, while I do know of several production/ semi custom operations that build on Timberline trees.......again, none in the price range you listed. I guess my best advice would be, for the money you wish to spend, is a good used saddle. JW

Thanks JW......I would actually prefer a good used saddle and I'm searching. I spoke to a saddle maker a couple of weeks ago whose name is Jeremy Stead and operates his business as www.ranchsaddle.com. He has made some very beautiful/durable saddles with top quality leather and hand tooled in the price range I mentioned. He's been doing it for eleven years. However, he uses Baties Trees and trees from a maker in Georgia. Once again, when I research these tree makers, most if not all of the professional saddle makers believe the trees are sub par. I looked at your website and viewed your saddles. It is apparent that they are high quality and your resume speaks for itself. However, I don't make my living with horses, and as much as I would like to park my butt in a 3,4,or 5 thousand dollar saddle, I just can't justify it. I do ride a great deal of the time and sometimes I ride very hard and long hours. I plan on talking to Mr. Stead about making a saddle on a different tree, but wanted to hear from other professionals like you first. Do you know of Jeremy Stead.....his reputation etc...? Of all the production saddles, which do you think are made the best? I've also looked at McCalls, but some stated that a custom saddle could be made for the same price. I obviously don't know if that is true or not. None of the production saddles I've owned have sored my horse, so I'm not opposed to purchasing another. But, I would really like to get a good ranch type model that can handle a rope, mountain riding, and team penning. Any suggestions?

Weazer

[jwwright]

Weazer, I don't know anything about the person you mentioned.

Edited December 22, 2009 by jwwright

[kseidel]

I'm in the market for a good ranch/trail saddle and need some advise. I recently went Elk Hunting and the outfitter had a Colorado Saddlery Continental Divide that I loved. Started looking and stumbled across this website. Found out that they are made in a prison and use Hadcock and Fox trees. Found out that most of you think those trees are junk. I've owned a Billy Cook trainer, older well built, but not what I wanted so I sold it. I purchased a SRS with a 7 inch gullet width but it was too wide for one of my horses. I am currently using my wife's Tucker, but it is too fufu. I have also ridden in Teskey's, Vinton and some Martins that were decent, but once again, most on this site are really down on rack, production saddles. I am considering working with a custom or semi custom saddle maker to build or sell me a saddle. However, I don't want to waste anymore money. I'd like to get it right this time. I only want to spend 1,500 to 2,000 dollars. It would appear that several of you agree that timberline saddle trees are good production trees. Are there any saddles made on these trees that can be purchased off the rack or ordered in my price range? Or, is there a saddle maker who can make a saddle in this price range that is custom or semi custom. Your comments and advice is appreciated.

Weazer,

In today's market with costs being what they are, it is impossible to build a custom or handmade saddle under $2000. Most used handmade saddles that are good quality and well designed will sell for $2500 and up. You stated that you did not want to wast any more money, and my advice to you would be to spend a bit more money for that next level of saddle. You may have difficulty justifying the original cost, but will find it well worth it in a very short time. You will be surprised at the unity and oneness between you and your horse when riding a saddle properly designed and constructed.

Making a saddle that performs properly is more than just a "handmade" saddle. It is about the balance and fit that comes from training and experience. Buying a handmade saddle for less money only comes from a saddlemaker that is less experienced and you are financing his practice. Most better production saddles are at leased designed by experienced saddlemakers, even though they are not as well constructed. But even a good production saddle will cost $2500 - $3000 to start. Many times, buying a lower priced handmade saddle is worse than a production saddle.

Everything is costing more these days, and you will be much wiser to spend a bit more and get a much better saddle.

Respectfully,

Keith Seidel

[AndyKnight]

Read Keith's post again !!!I totally dido his post. Just because something is " handmade" doesn't mean that it is built properly.

In today's market with costs being what they are, it is impossible to build a custom or handmade saddle under $2000. Most used handmade saddles that are good quality and well designed will sell for $2500 and up. You stated that you did not want to wast any more money, and my advice to you would be to spend a bit more money for that next level of saddle. You may have difficulty justifying the original cost, but will find it well worth it in a very short time. You will be surprised at the unity and oneness between you and your horse when riding a saddle properly designed and constructed.

Making a saddle that performs properly is more than just a "handmade" saddle. It is about the balance and fit that comes from training and experience. Buying a handmade saddle for less money only comes from a saddlemaker that is less experienced and you are financing his practice. Most better production saddles are at leased designed by experienced saddlemakers, even though they are not as well constructed. But even a good production saddle will cost $2500 - $3000 to start. Many times, buying a lower priced handmade saddle is worse than a production saddle.

Everything is costing more these days, and you will be much wiser to spend a bit more and get a much better saddle.

Respectfully,

Keith Seidel

[mulefool]

I can't comment on the maker you mentioned, don't know anything about him. In your price range a good used saddle could be a good choice. You might check a publication like Eclectic Horseman's classified section. I've seen some mcCalls listed there and also some reputable makers at what seemed like good prices. Chris

[Timbo]

Actually the saddles sold by Colorado Saddlery are very well made for a production saddle. If you used one and liked it as much as you say you do and it fits your price range ..........buy it. I've gotten to know one of the guys that runs the saddle program at the prison (its in Buena Vista, CO) and he is a stickler for quality. I've also seen the Hadlock and Fox trees and to me they looked really good for a production tree in my opinion. If you're not going to rope with this saddle the production tree shouldn't be a problem. I've also seen the Baties trees and thought they were also a decent production tree.

Seems there has gotten to be a stigma about production saddles lately, but lets face it........we all grew up riding them. I'm building my first saddle right now and it will the closest thing to a custom saddle I've ever even ridden. Are custom saddles better??? You bet they are......but can every one afford them?? Hell no. So what does that leave?? Finding a good quality production saddle. My opinion is frankly that as production saddles go the Colorado saddlery products are a good choice. Not priced on the high end of the spectrum but definitely better than whats available at the low end of the spectrum as far as production saddles go.

So again if you liked it and it is everything you want........get it!!

Tim

[Curbstrap2]

I'm in the market for a good ranch/trail saddle and need some advise. I recently went Elk Hunting and the outfitter had a Colorado Saddlery Continental Divide that I loved. Started looking and stumbled across this website. Found out that they are made in a prison and use Hadcock and Fox trees. Found out that most of you think those trees are junk. I've owned a Billy Cook trainer, older well built, but not what I wanted so I sold it. I purchased a SRS with a 7 inch gullet width but it was too wide for one of my horses. I am currently using my wife's Tucker, but it is too fufu. I have also ridden in Teskey's, Vinton and some Martins that were decent, but once again, most on this site are really down on rack, production saddles. I am considering working with a custom or semi custom saddle maker to build or sell me a saddle. However, I don't want to waste anymore money. I'd like to get it right this time. I only want to spend 1,500 to 2,000 dollars. It would appear that several of you agree that timberline saddle trees are good production trees. Are there any saddles made on these trees that can be purchased off the rack or ordered in my price range? Or, is there a saddle maker who can make a saddle in this price range that is custom or semi custom. Your comments and advice is appreciated.

You might try these folks: http://www.sugarcreeksaddlery.com/

I have a saddle from them that I am thrilled with and would recommend them. They are also extremely nice people to deal with.

[oldtimer]

Actually the saddles sold by Colorado Saddlery are very well made for a production saddle. If you used one and liked it as much as you say you do and it fits your price range ..........buy it. I've gotten to know one of the guys that runs the saddle program at the prison (its in Buena Vista, CO) and he is a stickler for quality. I've also seen the Hadlock and Fox trees and to me they looked really good for a production tree in my opinion. If you're not going to rope with this saddle the production tree shouldn't be a problem. I've also seen the Baties trees and thought they were also a decent production tree.

Seems there has gotten to be a stigma about production saddles lately, but lets face it........we all grew up riding them. I'm building my first saddle right now and it will the closest thing to a custom saddle I've ever even ridden. Are custom saddles better??? You bet they are......but can every one afford them?? Hell no. So what does that leave?? Finding a good quality production saddle. My opinion is frankly that as production saddles go the Colorado saddlery products are a good choice. Not priced on the high end of the spectrum but definitely better than whats available at the low end of the spectrum as far as production saddles go.

So again if you liked it and it is everything you want........get it!!

Tim

I have examined two Colorado saddlery roping saddles ( removed the seat leather). The ground seat consists of a tin plate and a thin piece of leather, so the riders were sitting on two rows of nailheads . What the eye doesn´t see........ . IMO they are not better or nor worse than any production saddle.

The reason why I took them apart was that the owners got " a pain in the ass ". ( Made and sold two new saddles)

/ Knut

Edited January 12, 2010 by oldtimer

[hidepounder]

I think Keiths comments are right on the mark.....that's good advice IMHO.

Bobby

[Weazer]

I think Keiths comments are right on the mark.....that's good advice IMHO.

Bobby

I would like to thank all of you for your advice in this post. I decided to have the gentleman I mentioned earlier in this thread (Jeremy Stead) make a saddle for me. He came across as a very knowledgeable and honest man. We hooked up with Randy at Timberline to make a premium tree based upon measurements taken of my horse. The price will be close to my budget but we have not finalized it yet. As for the Colorado Saddlery saddles....I do really like them, however, as a twenty year federal law enforcement agent in Chicago....I just can't buy something made by inmates....too many bad experiences, and too many good people should have those jobs. Strictly my opinion for my own reasons. I wish I hadn't found out where they are made. I went to all of the web sites provided by all of you, and must say there are some very amazing saddles being made. Maybe someday in the future I'll take that jump. I love the handle "Hidepounder", however, it has a different meaning here. LOL

[Jeremy Stead]

I'm in the market for a good ranch/trail saddle and need some advise. I recently went Elk Hunting and the outfitter had a Colorado Saddlery Continental Divide that I loved. Started looking and stumbled across this website. Found out that they are made in a prison and use Hadcock and Fox trees. Found out that most of you think those trees are junk. I've owned a Billy Cook trainer, older well built, but not what I wanted so I sold it. I purchased a SRS with a 7 inch gullet width but it was too wide for one of my horses. I am currently using my wife's Tucker, but it is too fufu. I have also ridden in Teskey's, Vinton and some Martins that were decent, but once again, most on this site are really down on rack, production saddles. I am considering working with a custom or semi custom saddle maker to build or sell me a saddle. However, I don't want to waste anymore money. I'd like to get it right this time. I only want to spend 1,500 to 2,000 dollars. It would appear that several of you agree that timberline saddle trees are good production trees. Are there any saddles made on these trees that can be purchased off the rack or ordered in my price range? Or, is there a saddle maker who can make a saddle in this price range that is custom or semi custom. Your comments and advice is appreciated.

Hi Weazer,

Jeremy Stead here, when you want a ranch saddle for $1500.00 that will last a lifetime you know where to find me. Name the tree, if you are comfortable with Timberline trees, I'll call Randy. We'll prove to these guys what a durable saddle can be, without digging DEEP into your pockets.

Thanks,

[colttrainer]

Hi Weazer,

Jeremy Stead here, when you want a ranch saddle for $1500.00 that will last a lifetime you know where to find me. Name the tree, if you are comfortable with Timberline trees, I'll call Randy. We'll prove to these guys what a durable saddle can be, without digging DEEP into your pockets.

Thanks,

Jeremy, I have to agree with you. If built on a prodution made tree, minamal tooling, you can build a saddle that will last a life time. I think that based on my supply costs it would be priced in around $2000.00.

Lets face it you are paying for the time it takes to do the tooling on the high end custom saddles, along with in most cases higher end hardware.

Some of these folks are not charging enough for their work ( quality of tooling & time spent) & others are being over paid.

[RWB]

Colttrainer,

I would be curious as to how you would define "overpaid" for a saddle. My base price is $3,000, and that is for a rough-out or smooth-out without any stamping. I know that Keith Seidel's base is somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,500. But Keith can justify that because he has the customer base and experience that I do not. However I literally can't price a saddle lower than $3,000 considering the time and material that I have into one. Plus on top of all that, I have shop overhead, taxes, tools, advertising, and I have to make a wage that will sustain a living. Plus after all that is said and done I am still trying to build a better mouse trap. A saddle that is a little or a lot nicer than the guy down the road builds. So that means more time trying to refine my skills in the effort to give my customers a more refined product that is worthy of my price tag.

So all of that to just say that I'm somewhat curious were you think the line is of not being paid enough and being overpaid for a saddle is.

Ross Brunk

Edited February 21, 2010 by RWB

[Steve Brewer]

Colttrainer,

I would be curious as to how you would define "overpaid" for a saddle. My base price is $3,000, and that is for a rough-out or smooth-out without any stamping. I know that Keith Seidel's base is somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,500. But Keith can justify that because he has the customer base and experience that I do not. However I literally can't price a saddle lower than $3,000 considering the time and material that I have into one. Plus on top of all that, I have shop overhead, taxes, tools, advertising, and I have to make a wage that will sustain a living. Plus after all that is said and done I am still trying to build a better mouse trap. A saddle that is a little or a lot nicer than the guy down the road builds. So that means more time trying to refine my skills in the effort to give my customers a more refined product that is worthy of my price tag.

So all of that to just say that I'm somewhat curious were you think the line is of not being paid enough and being overpaid for a saddle is.

Ross Brunk

Very well said Ross,everyone prices there saddles a little different.Shop time needs to let us make a living.

Steve Brewer

[colttrainer]

Colttrainer,

I would be curious as to how you would define "overpaid" for a saddle. My base price is $3,000, and that is for a rough-out or smooth-out without any stamping. I know that Keith Seidel's base is somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,500. But Keith can justify that because he has the customer base and experience that I do not. However I literally can't price a saddle lower than $3,000 considering the time and material that I have into one. Plus on top of all that, I have shop overhead, taxes, tools, advertising, and I have to make a wage that will sustain a living. Plus after all that is said and done I am still trying to build a better mouse trap. A saddle that is a little or a lot nicer than the guy down the road builds. So that means more time trying to refine my skills in the effort to give my customers a more refined product that is worthy of my price tag.

So all of that to just say that I'm somewhat curious were you think the line is of not being paid enough and being overpaid for a saddle is.

Ross Brunk

What I was trying to say and I am not sure that it came across right or not is .1) There are alot of very artistic crafts men out there that I feel should probably be charging more for their work, not only is the tooling superb but they truely know how to build a saddle.

2) there are the ones that they have no idea what it takes to make a saddle, not something that looks like a saddle,but a true working piece of gear. These are the ones I feel are getting paid more than what their work deserves. All the power to them.

I also understand what you are saying in regards to over head etc., but keep in mind there are the ones that have alot less in these expences. Geographic area, buying power can all reflect on the final numbers.

I was not trying to start a war, this is my opionon, which you may find totally of base & that would be you choice. But for the most part people getwhat they are worth & if they are not worth it they don't last.

[colttrainer]

Colttrainer,

I would be curious as to how you would define "overpaid" for a saddle. My base price is $3,000, and that is for a rough-out or smooth-out without any stamping. I know that Keith Seidel's base is somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,500. But Keith can justify that because he has the customer base and experience that I do not. However I literally can't price a saddle lower than $3,000 considering the time and material that I have into one. Plus on top of all that, I have shop overhead, taxes, tools, advertising, and I have to make a wage that will sustain a living. Plus after all that is said and done I am still trying to build a better mouse trap. A saddle that is a little or a lot nicer than the guy down the road builds. So that means more time trying to refine my skills in the effort to give my customers a more refined product that is worthy of my price tag.

So all of that to just say that I'm somewhat curious were you think the line is of not being paid enough and being overpaid for a saddle is.

Ross Brunk

Ross to further try and clarify what I was getting at, lets say you & I were to build twin saddles, priced the same. All aspects the same ( overhead, material costs ect. ) I would say you are under paid & I am over paid. Your years as a saddle maker is worth something, my lack of refinement is worth less. Just because my cost are the same as yours doesn't mean my product is worth as much as yours. So if I need that much to stay in bus. that tells me that you should be charging more hence under paid. I do realize also that customer base dictates to some degree what a person gets paid.

Until I tried tooling leather, and creating things in leather did I realize the effort, & artistic talent that is involved in creating these works of art.

Al

Edited February 22, 2010 by colttrainer

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Weazer, I got your note. Actually, I wasn't looking to make you a saddle. My base saddles start at $2,650,and with the amount of work that goes into one, I can't afford to drop that price, however, what I had in mind is that I have 2 saddles here, one I am going to sell, which one depends on which has a buyer first. The one is fresh off the bench and was going to be for a woman that had put a down payment on it and was buying it to surprise her husband. during the build process he surprised her with divorce papers! Needless to say, she isn't going to buy this saddle now, but; I am discounting it by the amount of her deposit so it is for sale @ $3,500. The other is a used cutting saddle I made for myself, and does not have much use, too busy working to pay the bills to ride lately ao it hasn't been getting much use. The saddle is one that had a price tag of $3,500 on it new, but; I will sell it for $2,000. These may be in your price range and are both completely hand made. If that interests you just let me know and we can talk further. I am attaching a couple of pics of them.

Bondo Bob

[MarkB]

Weazer

I have this saddle for sale for 2000.00 if you would like more information on me let me know.

Mark

[RWB]

What I was trying to say and I am not sure that it came across right or not is .1) There are alot of very artistic crafts men out there that I feel should probably be charging more for their work, not only is the tooling superb but they truely know how to build a saddle.

2) there are the ones that they have no idea what it takes to make a saddle, not something that looks like a saddle,but a true working piece of gear. These are the ones I feel are getting paid more than what their work deserves. All the power to them.

I also understand what you are saying in regards to over head etc., but keep in mind there are the ones that have alot less in these expences. Geographic area, buying power can all reflect on the final numbers.

I was not trying to start a war, this is my opionon, which you may find totally of base & that would be you choice. But for the most part people getwhat they are worth & if they are not worth it they don't last.

I'm not trying to start war either. Please don't misunderstand. I just was wanting to know what you meant, and with your clarification I now understand. Opinions are great. That's what makes the world go 'round. I guess I just fall into the camp that says there is no way you can make a custom saddle for less than $2,500 and still make a profit. And that's what it's all about. If I can't make money doing this well then it's a great hobby, but I would be better off working at the coal mine or for the railroad. Even at $2,500 you are not making enough to make a living doing this. So the only way to do it is get faster and use cheaper materials. The faster you go the less picky you have to be. I'm picky, and I can't bring myself to give that up.

So no war just curious.

Ross

[colttrainer]

I'm not trying to start war either. Please don't misunderstand. I just was wanting to know what you meant, and with your clarification I now understand. Opinions are great. That's what makes the world go 'round. I guess I just fall into the camp that says there is no way you can make a custom saddle for less than $2,500 and still make a profit. And that's what it's all about. If I can't make money doing this well then it's a great hobby, but I would be better off working at the coal mine or for the railroad. Even at $2,500 you are not making enough to make a living doing this. So the only way to do it is get faster and use cheaper materials. The faster you go the less picky you have to be. I'm picky, and I can't bring myself to give that up.

So no war just curious.

Ross

Ross

I never said it would be a pretty saddle, I just said it could be done & it would last. NOT SURE WHAT IT WOULD LOOK LIKE!

You have a good day

AL

[Newfman]

Weazer, I got your note. Actually, I wasn't looking to make you a saddle. My base saddles start at $2,650,and with the amount of work that goes into one, I can't afford to drop that price, however, what I had in mind is that I have 2 saddles here, one I am going to sell, which one depends on which has a buyer first. The one is fresh off the bench and was going to be for a woman that had put a down payment on it and was buying it to surprise her husband. during the build process he surprised her with divorce papers! Needless to say, she isn't going to buy this saddle now, but; I am discounting it by the amount of her deposit so it is for sale @ $3,500. The other is a used cutting saddle I made for myself, and does not have much use, too busy working to pay the bills to ride lately ao it hasn't been getting much use. The saddle is one that had a price tag of $3,500 on it new, but; I will sell it for $2,000. These may be in your price range and are both completely hand made. If that interests you just let me know and we can talk further. I am attaching a couple of pics of them.

Bondo Bob

I want the horse.

[Newfman]

I think the people at Yugo Motors were all good car builders. They just used the cheapest components they could find. Toyota makes a nice little entry level car, but did not use the cheapest components. Even Mercedes makes an entry level car, but uses high end components. All the people that weld, screw, bolt, clip, stick, glue, snap and all the other trades that go into assembling a car, pretty much have their craft down. The biggest difference was the quality of the parts. Yugo was really cheap, and you would have a hard time finding one, even in a museum. The others, well, are still on the road.

Granted, some of the people here are making Ferraris and Bugattis. Those would be the top quality parts, top quality design and assembly, and extrordinary tooling. They have Bugatti customers as well. For a "working" saddle, I just don't see how Saddle Makers like Keith Seidel, Kent Frecker, and a slew of other fine saddle makers could build a saddle on a $90 tree, with fine imported hardware and leather from China, and have it live a long hard life at the hands of a working cowboy and not just fall apart. Skill alone just isn't going to do it. I haven't built a saddle, but i can recognize quality, and getting better at it every day.

Norm Abrams and Tom Silva could build a pretty house out of crap materials. One might look at it and say, "Wow, what a beautiful house!" and I bet Tom and Norm would just turn and walk away muttering. . ."It's Crap."

So, in a way, you get what you pay for. If you are ignorant enough to buy a $950 brand new "Hand Made" saddle and the builder sells you on all of the advantages of a ralide tree, well, 'caveat emptor'. If you buy a hand made saddle for $2500 and you were told that it was all top quality materials but found out later that it had a ralide tree in it....I can think of ways I would prefer to deal with that.

The price does not make, the saddle. The components + Skill + knowledge + reputation= a saddle of high value. There are saddles available everywhere in the spectrum of quality and value. Pick your poison.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Newfman

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I want the horse.

Newfman, thanks but; "Duke" and I have been together for close to 13 years and he ain't going anywhere without me any time soon.

Bob