Good Ranch Saddle

[ASMA]

I have been watching this subject and have bit my tongue until now. I can not agree more with Shelly and Keith. As both Shelly and Keith know, I have been on this price soap box for over 15 years now and have seen some progress, but not enough to win the battle. The question is, what constitutes a "good ranch saddle"? To define what is a good ranch saddle is a major task. The short version might be: a saddle that can bee ridden for 6 to 8 hours a day 4 to 5 day a week for 5 years comfortably for both horse and rider, handle the stress of roping 1000+ pound cattle on a daily basis, etc. A custom/hand made or the better production "factory" saddle might meet these needs.

Looking at a plain Jane roping saddle made by Courts, Circle Y, Colorado Saddlery, and Cactus Saddlery, you have an average wholesale price of around $1,425.00. Using an average retail markup the retail price is about $ 2,375.00. You can buy a Ford F-150 for $25,000.00, but it is not going to haul your 4 horse slant with living quarters or a stock trailer that can haul 10 horses. You might get by a few times without blowing a transmission. What you will probably needis a F-350 super duty at $60,000.00+. For the "gentleman rancher" a production saddle might work!

Also, it seemed to me we were not all on the same page. We need some general reference points. Quoting Shelly "and they all have 'Custom Made', 'Hand Made', etc, giving the customer buying these cheaper factory saddles the impression that these are high quality, custom saddles...". What is the definition of a custom saddle, hand made saddle, production saddle, etc.? ASMA has addressed this in our STANDARDS AND PRACTICES section of our website. These definitions are purposely broad or one would have way too many categories to be useful.

As to price, again, ASMA in the STANDARDS AND PRACTICES section we detail the minimum national average cost for a custom saddle. As a note: using the U.S. poverty rate income for a family of 4 the minimum national average cost for a custom saddle is $2,223.97. The numbers tell it all.

I invite you to go to the ASMA website for the details. www.saddlemakers.org

In all fairness to Mr Snead, at $1500.00 wholesale, he is in line with the other production companies.

Respectfully submitted,

　

Bob

　

Edited March 5, 2010 by ASMA

[Steve Brewer]

Bob,It is good to see the ASMA respond to this thread,I use old school meathod of figuring prices.Take bowdens price for a kit saddle(approx. 800),$800.00 for labor,800 for profit and you come up with 2400.That is the lest we can build a custom saddle.My material costs are more like $1100,using the same 33% materials,33% labor,and 33% profit we arrive at 3300 selling price of a base priced saddle.Any busnessman will tell you you have to make atleast 33% to keep the doors open.I build some Wholsale stuff and the seller gets the profit keeping the price the same.

Good thread.

Steve

[colttrainer]

I would like to clarify something. I agreed with a staement that a saddle could be custom made for X amount of dollars, I will still say that. But before you all come unglued, you get what you pay for. Let me add that I do not build a saddle for that price! I have to this point only built my own & I have lots to learn about the finer points of leather work. I do not & will not under cut prices just so I can build saddles. My base price is $3000.00, that may be lower than some but I believe that it is still higher than some, but being new I can not be at the top end of the scale, I do need to work for less at this time & as quaility improves wages will improve. I will continue working leather refining my skills on projects, building saddles for myself, untill I reach a level that people can justify spending that kind of cash on my product.

Keith if my wife was not bring a $100,000 a year in I would be more then happy to learn the trade in your shop.

Al

Edited March 5, 2010 by colttrainer

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Ok, I agree wholeheartedly with Keith and shelly and all the others. I have listed my prices before so I won't go into that , suffice it to say that I don't feel I get what I should, but; in Michigan with this economy, you are lucky to get anything. Even so, I will not lower my prices any more than I already have, and if things ever get better and people here starte to spend money again, they will go up expotentially. In the mean time, on the factory note, I have repaired many saddles that were practically new factory saddles because they did not stay together, due to materials, or workmanship, or both. When I repair, I charge $35 per hour labor, plus materials, I am retired and my shop is here at the house so my overhead is not to bad. A lot of people could have had a "good ranch saddle made" for what they have in repairs on these factory saddles. I had a guy come in not too long ago with his $3,500 "custom made" Circle Y, cutting saddle that was a year old with the horn cap loose and the stitches popped out. The problem was that they didn't use a filler sandwiched in between the top and bottom cover that was "permantly" attached to the horn by either screws or tacks. They just glued them to the horn! He didn't want to go through the expense of sending it back to have them fix it so he paid me 3.5 hrs work plus $15 in materials. When I asked him how he got a custom made saddle from circle y and how long it took he said (get this) he said he flew down there to the factory, he ordered the saddle with all the things he wanted on it, like what style tooling, color, type and size of seat, type of horn, stirrups and so on, and they made it right there while he waited and took a tour of the place and had lunch, (they had all the parts already there cut dyed and so on, all they had to do was assemble it). I am guessing that he had probably another $1,000 to $1,200 in that trip, if he was only there a day. If you add that up he now had over $4,800 in that "Custom Made" saddle. No matter how you slice it, the only way to get a custom made saddle is to have it done by someone who is not just looking to get into your pocket book, but; is really following the old fashioned method of saddle making and using lots of elbow grease in the process! Oh by the way, after cutting for a couple years, this guy quit it because it was too expensive! Go figure!

Bondo Bob

[Weazer]

Well, since I started this thread for my own selfish reasons, I thought I would chime in. The internet is truly a marvelous tool. I'm no saddle maker. In the grand scheme of things my input really doesn't matter. I'm just a consumer. I'm the person who needs to be convinced that what I'm buying is worth its price. I initially asked for advise concerning having a custom made saddle constructed for a price of $1500.00 to $2000.00. I was hoping that someone would say "I'll make you a saddle in that price range." Instead, I was told by everyone that it could not be done at that price, but for a few hundred dollars more, I could find one. I wasn't asking for a handmade saddle made solely by the individual saddle maker for that price. I knew a saddle made in that manner would be very expensive and quite frankly one that I would tend to baby. What I was looking for was someone who would work with me to build a saddle that would fit my horse and I, and have all the necessary bells and whistles to accomplish the job. Simply, a good ranch saddle made to order. What I was looking for was an up and coming saddle maker who was hungry for business. After reading this thread, it appears that most of you are very experienced and still make saddles individually (handmade), and it should be reflected in the price (I assume someone buys your saddles). I guess that if you have a saddle shop and employ others to help you build saddles you can't honestly say you made it. You can most certainly say that you managed its production, place your name upon it, and sell it as a custom made saddle (please correct me if I am wrong). And that was the type of saddle and saddle maker I was looking for.

I didn't find Jeremy Snead on this website, I found him through a google search for ranch saddles. So, for my fellow consumers, this is what I decided to spend my money on. Mr. Snead is making the saddle with his own two hands and the hands of his employees. It is being made on a premium saddle tree made by Randy at Timberline. It's more expensive than his other trees, $350.00 to $400.00 with shipping, but Randy makes it himself with the assistance of machinery. Randy sent me the rough tree to try on my horse before he covered it with rawhide. It was a perfect fit. Mr. Snead had walked me through the measuring process prior to this through the use of photos and cell phones to insure a good fit. Neither of these two individuals knew each other prior to this exchange. My saddle will be made with top grade leather from Wickett and Craig, the very best wool fleece lining and Bork hardware, turned and braided fenders and just the right amount of hand tooling for a using saddle. I don't know what the final price will be, however, when it is finished, I will let everyone know and post photos. Both Randy and Mr. Snead (Jeremy) have been a pleasure to deal with....straight forward and honest.

[BOB BRENNER]

Weazer,

Glad you and Jeremy were able to strike a deal. Will not argue with your choice of Randy at Timberline, Wickett & Craig leather , Bork hardware, etc. All good choices.

I do take your comments in your latest post as a personal affront to me and the other saddle makers who did not try to sell you a saddle, but tried to give you a wide span of good advice. You gave the impression that we were trying to rip you off with our prices. I will correct you: 95+% of all saddle makers work in individual shops and make their saddles by themselves from start to finish. When their name is on the saddle he or she made it.

Given the information you supplied; Jeremy’s costs for your saddle will be $1,100.00 or more. He is going to build you a saddle at or below the individual poverty rate for the U.S., that is his choice. If you expect us to work at the poverty rate so you can get what you want or need then maybe as taxpayers we should demand that you as a Federal employee work at the minium wage!!!

Respectfully,

Bob

[Shelly]

Weazer,

Glad you and Jeremy were able to strike a deal. Will not argue with your choice of Randy at Timberline, Wickett & Craig leather , Bork hardware, etc. All good choices.

I do take your comments in your latest post as a personal affront to me and the other saddle makers who did not try to sell you a saddle, but tried to give you a wide span of good advice. You gave the impression that we were trying to rip you off with our prices. I will correct you: 95+% of all saddle makers work in individual shops and make their saddles by themselves from start to finish. When their name is on the saddle he or she made it.

Given the information you supplied; Jeremy's costs for your saddle will be $1,100.00 or more. He is going to build you a saddle at or below the individual poverty rate for the U.S., that is his choice. If you expect us to work at the poverty rate so you can get what you want or need then maybe as taxpayers we should demand that you as a Federal employee work at the minium wage!!!

Respectfully,

Bob

Ouch!! But very well said!!! And I don't think we are making very good journeyman's wages with what we all are charging right now, either!! Get an electrician, plumber, etc out to do some work sometime...

[Traveller]

Another mere consumer chiming in here... I believe you good saddle makers are charging a fair price for an excellent product. I have no trouble with people buying saddles that fit their budgets but hope there will always be enough consumers out there to keep you folks in business.

[Weazer]

Bob,

Thanks for the information! I went to the ASMA site and found it to be most informative. I truly had no idea that this organization existed. It was not my intention to offend you or anyone else. I do not expect saddle makers to work for minimum wage. I expect that they are smart enough to make a profit that supports their lifestyle. If they can't, I assume they supplement their income through other employment or other horse related skills. My intention was to become an informed consumer before I made my next purchase. I had no idea custom made saddle prices were such a sensitive topic within your profession. Once again, I would like to thank all those who provided me with advice and I hope all of you are successful.

My intention concerning my last post was to communicate to other consumers that there is at least one saddle maker who at this point in his career will make a custom saddle with high quality material at the upper end of production saddle prices. There are others listed within this thread in the mid $2,000.00 range as well as these additional saddle makers I found: cowcampsupply.com made by Sparky Wallace with a base of $2200, smithleatherandsaddlery.com well equipped with a base of $2495, Paul Custom Saddlery at ranchhorseoutfitters.com with a base of $2100, sugarcreeksaddlery.com with a base of $2000, and 246ranch.net using Quality Mfg. trees with a base of $2495. All of which are at or below the ASMA poverty price index!

Now I don't want to start a war either, however, in the spirit of discussion, I will address your last comment. Since you have assumed the role as spokesperson for...as you put it...you and the other saddle makers who did not try to sell me a saddle...these are my personal feelings on the matter. What I do for a living has absolutely no bearing on this topic. I can't speak for the other Federal law enforcement officers who you feel should be paid minimum wage, but I love my profession and I'm good at it. You are a tax payer and I do in fact work for you. I find it interesting that an Executive Director of the ASMA finds it necessary to attack a public servant in a public forum over his attempt to educate himself and others to simply "buy a saddle". If I must, I will work for minimum wage again. In this day and age, If you have a job and are blessed with the ability to work at something you truly enjoy doing you simply make it work. So, lobby your state representative or run for office yourself and make it happen if that is truly how you feel. I will simply leave the last word for you.

Respectfully Submitted

Weazer

[jwwright]

Weazer..........................I understand where you are coming from as a saddle buyer. There is a lot of confusion out there among the potential saddle buying public, and I will address here what I think is one of the main contributors to that confusion...................and the source of much concern among true shop made, hand made saddle makers on this price subject.

What you and many other potential saddle buyers may not realize is this: There are a substantial number of what I will call "saddle production contractors / factories" somewhat scattered about the country, but with a high concentration of them in Texas, and specifically North East Texas. They produce saddles for many different "name brand" saddle businesses.........including quite a few who have in their name "so and so custom" and "handmade". You can walk in to some of these (saddle production contractors) shops, and see many different "maker" stamps that they put on saddles, depending upon which "maker" ordered the saddle. Some of the "so and so custom handmade" saddle businesses that place contracts with these "contractors" don't even have a shop of any kind of their own, nor have ever made a saddle. There are also quite a few saddle businesses with "so and so custom handmade" type names, that do have a shop of their own, but they employ others (mostly good folks of hispanic nature) to build the saddles.

As I , and others see it, here is the problem with the above . There exists some of these "so and so handmade saddlery" proprietors who lead folks to believe that they have a shop, and either they or their employees build the saddles , when in fact they do not. They have no saddle production shop, and simply take orders, place them with a "production / contractor" , have their maker stamp put on them, deliver the saddle and collect the funds. There are also other proprietors who have a shop, employ the good hispanic folks to make them, but lead folks to believe that they are a small handmade saddle shop, where they themselves actually build saddles. There is quite a bit of deception going on sometimes, either by what they do or don't say.

Some of the good hispanic folks working in the various types of shops I've mentioned are very talented, hard working people, but are taken advantage of and paid next to nothing, so the saddle business proprietor can sell an apparently low priced saddle and make a good profit for themselves. I had the proprietor of one such business tell me that he paid the folks building saddles around $7 -8 per hour........but, he had made an exception just that week and was paying one saddle maker $10 per hour (the most he said he had ever paid anyone), because this feller could build one complete saddle per day. That conversation was about 3 years ago, and I don't suppose much has changed.

Secifically Weazer, I have personal knowledge of a few of the saddle businesses that you mentioned. I will only comment on one..........Bill Howe (246 ranch saddlery) is a true handmade saddle maker, and builds a very well made saddle. I have not visited with him in a couple years, but it is my understanding that he is retired, and currently building about one saddle per month because he enjoys it, and to supplement his retirement.

I truly hope that your saddle buying journey has lead to a decision that will provide you with a saddle that enjoy for a long time.

JW