ASMA

F.O. Baird was a well-known saddle maker. Had a saddle shop in Los Angeles in the 1930"s. Best known for his book "Leather Secrets".

Tosch, If you are confused, join the club. With the contradictory definitions of the "historical" semi-quarter, quarter, and full-quarters horse bars, we decided to use the angle expressed in degrees, as indicated in the original post. We ran into a problem in that due to the design of the bars and construction methods used by tree makers, the angle can be modified, yielding a different angle. You could start out with a 90 degree angle and end up with a 93 degree angle. So one tree makers 90 degree angle fits like another's 93 degree angle. You thought you were getting a tree with a 90 degree angle, but in reality get a tree with a 93 degree angle. Think about building a house. The builder uses a meter with 1000 mm, but the cabinet maker uses a meter with 995 mm, and the door maker uses a meter with 1003 mm. Nothing will fit. That puts us right back where we started. While we would prefer to use the angle expressed in degrees, until a consensus can be reached as to what the angle in degrees actually means, we decided after much discussion, that body type was the best option. As to quarter horse bars, mule bars, Arabian bars, etc. There are based on the conformation of the breed. There are various designs within the breeds, I.E. Northwest and Arizona bars in quarter horses. These bar designs consist of bar sub elements such as rock, flare, twist, length, etc. that fit the breed conformation. The problem here is again these are "historical". With cross breading and selective breading in the past 30 years or so the conformations are changing. For example, the "historical" Arabian bar was based in the Egyptian Arabian conformation. These bars generally will not fit the Polish Arabian conformation. In the quarter horse conformation, the modern Paint horse has a similar problem.

A. W. Maier was in business from 1914 to 1947 in Fredericksburg, TX.

oltoot, Can't agree more. With one reference saying semi-quarter horse bars are narrow and another saying just the opposite, what is a saddle customer to do. Of course the answer is education, but we feel we must start some where. These descriptions have been used for decades with in the general public forum, so we decided to start with some baby steps. We thought about diferent bar patterns. 90 degree Arizona Quarter horse bars with 6 1/4" gullet width. Thanks, for your comments

Folks, we are looking for some advice and counsel. In 2010 ASMA started the Saddle Fit Project. We have one issue we have not been able to resolve. That being the definition of tree bars. IE: quarter horse bars - semi-quarter horse bars – full quarter horse bars. We have come to the conclusion that these definitions are no longer viable due to mis-use and contradictory information. When we did a GOOGLE search on semi-quarter horse bars we got all types on information. Here are four examples from just the first 2 pages. Semi Quarter Horse bar - This type usually has a gullet width of about 6 1/2 inches. Semi-quarter horse bars: 6" Generally, Semi-QH bars are made for horses with more sloped sides and not so wide backs. A semi-qh tree is supposed to fit horses with a more TB or narrow build. Semi-Quarter Horse Bars - horses got bigger and wider from the 1970's on, requiring a wider angle in the bars. Semi-quarter horse bars fit most of todays western horses. See how they contradict each other. No wonder people are confused! Therefore, we propose the following: ASMA recommends that the tree bars be described as angle in degrees and type of bar. For example: 90 degree Quarter horse bars 90 degree Mule bars 90 degree Arabian bars. This can be expanded by adding the gullet width. 90 degree Quarter horse bars - with a gullet width of: 6" 90 degree Quarter horse bars - with a gullet width of: 6 1/4" 93 degree Quarter horse bars - with a gullet width of: 6 1/4" 93 degree Quarter horse bars - with a gullet width of: 6 1/2" Not trying to start a war. Just trying to find some common ground that makes sense. Look forward to your comments.

There was a Western Saddle Mfg. Co. in Denver, CO. In Business from 1885 to the late 1950's.

Reline saddle with sheep skin and replace strings -- National Average -- $ 403.93

The ASMA web site has a list of western saddle making schools in the training section. www.saddlemakers.org

Texas Tanning and Mfg. Co. was in business from the 1920's to the 1940's.

Seb, Try Bill Bill Gomer 1939 Diamond Springs Road Highland, KS 66035 1-785-0442-3048

Try the Hermann Oak web site for a distributor. http://www.hermannoakleather.com/about/find-a-distributor

This year we have seen an increase in inquiries regarding insurance coverage for saddle makers. Some new makers looking for coverage and some established makers looking for coverage after being dropped by their old insurance company. The main issue is product liability. ASMA would like to develop a page on our website that would list those insurance companies that insure saddle makers. Therefore, we are asking for you to post the name of your insurance company here or e-mail the information to info@saddlemakers.org. Thanks

Beiler's Manufacturing and Supply. Order Catalog at 717-768-0174

WINDMILL ENGLISH SADDLE SUPPLY 7186 DEWEY ROAD THOMPSON, OH 44086 1-440-298-3018

The Saddle Fit Project has been finished and is now titled WESTERN SADDLE FIT. Saddle fit is subjective in that what is a positive fit to one rider may not be a positive fit to another rider. In developing the information for the project, we found that it is next too impossible to define a system or way to achieve a positive saddle fit. Each saddle maker or saddle fitter has developed their own system to achieve a positive saddle fit. Therefore, as long as the saddle fit is positive in relation to the requirements of the rider, the method used in determining the positive saddle fit is not of concern and it is not our intention to recommend or dictate any method. Therefore, the Saddle Fit Project focused on the elements and factors that effect saddle fit and how they are related to each other. As with saddle fitting this is an on-going project and as new information is developed, it will be added. The WESTERN SADDLE FIT information is available on-line or in printed book form. Go the ASMA web site www.saddlemakers.org and click on WESTERN SADDLE FIT. The WESTERN SADDLE FIT book can be ordered on the web site for $9.95 + 5.50 postage

We are in the process of up-dating the pricing information in our "GREEN BOOK" and made this interesting observation. In 2007 the cost of materials for a custom saddle was $ 948.29 and this year it is $1,256.57, which is a little over a 30% increase (an average of 5% a year and the government is telling us the inflation rate has been 1 to 2 % a year over this time period). In 2007 the US median household income was $ 54,489.00 and now is $ 51,404.00, a 6% decrease over 6 years or a deflation fate of 1% per year. We all need to keep our pencils very very sharp.

Received this e-mail. Hello: I have a Vegan friend who is looking for a saddle maker that is willing to construct an entire saddle leather free - the current synthetic saddle available are not sturdy enough for her, etc. Can you recommend someone? Thanks, Erin horsefuzzz@yahoo.com Is anyone up for the challenge?

Johanna, You are always welcome. Look foward to seeing you. Bob

2ND ANNUAL SADDLE MAKERS BREAKFAST GATHERING ASMA will hold a SADDLE MAKERS BREAKFAST GATHERING this May during the Sheridan Trade Show, May 19 to 21, 2011. The Gathering will be a sponsored breakfast buffet with a round table discussion. The breakfast is limited to 50 registered attendees. May 21, 2011 7:00 AM TO 9:00AM Snow Goose Room at the Best Western Sheridan Center 7:00 AM -- 8:00 AM Breakfast 8:00 am -- 9:00am round table discussion To register send an email with your name and address to breakfast@saddlemakers.org or call 1-719-494-2848 You must be registered by May 17th or the fee is $10.00 SPONSORS ASMA ** PRECISION SADDLE TREE** SHERIDAN LEATHER/WALSALL HARDWARE

Have been following this thread and others the talked about being professional. Here is some food for thought. If the moderator needs to put it into another topic please do so. I agree with Keith’s comments 100%. He and I have had discussions on this subject and we are on the same page. Keith is more diplomatic on the subject than I. Quoting Keith. "I encourage professionals to get the training and knowledge to be legitimate in your business, and to charge rates that reflect the costs of doing business responsibly." "I caution hobbyists against doing work beyond your skill level, and not to charge for your work. When you accept funds for your work, you are no longer just a hobbyist, but considered a professional, and therefore liable for your actions." "I do not want the government to interfere with the freedom of our industry,..." Folks, government "interference" or regulation can come in many forms. FYI Here are a couple that will effect us all this year (2011) and next year (2012). Effective January 1, 2011, the IRS (Section 6050W of the IRS Code) requires reporting of all payment card and third party network transactions. Your reporting entity will be required to file an annual information return with the IRS and provide you with a Form 1099-K, which reports monthly and annual gross sales. So all of us that accept credit cards for payment will have those sales reported to the IRS. For the hobbyist or part time leather worker that uses Paypal or similar services as we understand it, will also have those sales reported to the IRS. You are now a business and subject to all that entails. You know how the IRS feels about unreported income!! Beginning in 2012, under the Health Care Act passed in 2009, all business are required to report through a 1099 for all purchases from vendors over $600. As we understand it, this is total purchases for the year and not individual purchases. That’s two saddle trees, 3 to 4 sides of leather, or a sewing machine. This is current law. To change this provision of the Health Care Act requires Congress to repeal the provision. So far two attempts have been made and both failed. How’s everyone’s blood pressure. Given the current Federal budget deficits, Congress is looking for every possible method to collect more revenue, so this is just the beginning. Everyone paying their fair share. The train is moving and gaining speed. If you can remain off the grid, no problem, but as you see that remaining off the grid is becoming harder. What is the next deal - vendors (Tandy) reporting your purchases? Therefore, it could be time to become more proactive. For your consideration. Bob 　 　 　

We have been making progress on the Saddle Fit Project. After much discussion it was determined that in reality saddle fit is subjective; in other words what is a positive fit to one rider may not a positive fit to another rider. Also, it was determined that positive saddle fit needs to be over time and not a moment in time. Therefore, the Saddle Fit Project will focus on the elements and factors that effect saddle fit and how they are related to each other. To follow the progress go the ASMA web site www.saddlemakers.org and click on SADDLE FIT PROJECT.

Saddle fit has generated a lot of questions and responses on this forum, with many expressing frustration with the validity of the information available and the so called "experts" on the subject. On this forum we are preaching to the choir, as they say. To give us a voice with the general riding public on this subject, the ASMA board has initiated the SADDLE FIT PROJECT. The general purpose of the SADDLE FIT PROJECT is to develop a consensus as to what factors and/or areas need to be considered to achieve a positive saddle fit. The general riding population then can add this information to their decision process. As with saddle fit itself, this project will be ongoing. To get the information out to the public, it will be listed under the standards and procedures section of the ASMA web site for starters. Once, we have developed the project to the point where we feel it can be released to the public; the info will be made available to anyone so they can add a section to their web page, a possible handout etc. The web sites are the key, as the more sites that have the info the more hits one will have on a web search. The next post is a draft concept outline of the project. Nothing is cast in stone. Look forward to input from one and all. If you do not want to list your ideas on the forum then use info@saddlemakers.com. To follow the progress go the ASMA web site www.saddlemakers.org and click on SADDLE FIT PROJECT. For starters – What constitutes quarter horse bars, sem-quarter horse bars, and full quarter horse bars??? Is it bar pattern, gullet width, or angle, or a combination. WESTERN SADDLE FIT The subject of western saddle fit or saddle fitting has generated a good deal of interest within the general riding public and the saddle industry. This interest has been sparked for many reasons, and a lot of information has been written in various horse publications and the Internet. Some of this information is good, some is bad, some is misleading, some is incorrect, or some is incomplete leading to frustration among all parties involved. The elements of saddle fit are – the horse – the saddle – the rider. These elements are interrelated and a change in one or the absence of one will effect the others. The goal of a positive saddle fit is to achieve a fit that is positive over time and not a moment in time. The procedure or method that is used is not of concern, if the final result is positive. The following are areas or items one should or needs to consider in relationship to each of the elements of saddle fit. 　 THE HORSE The conformation of a horse/s will change over time. * Weight - gain or loss * Fitness - fit or unfit * Age - young or old. A horse under the age of 6 has not fully developed their conformation and as they develop may yield a negative fit. * Mare after having a foal THE SADDLE The saddle has two sub-elements: the tree and saddle construction. THE TREE Each tree maker has developed their own bar patterns and tree measurements, therefore trees made by different tree makers may or may not fit the same. Also, tree makers are constantly modifying their bar patterns and tree measurements to conform to the ever changing conformation of horses. Therefore, a tree made by the same tree maker 20 years ago may fit different than one made today. * Bars - angle, shape, rock, twist, length * Gullet - width and height SADDLE CONSTRUCTION The saddle/tree can fit both the horse and rider, but if the saddle construction is not compatible, then you may have a negative fit. * Rigging position * Skirt length and depth THE RIDER * Seat size The saddle and the horse can have a positive fit, but if the riders’s seat size is wrong you may have a negative fit. * Rider’s balance If saddle fit is important to you, we suggest you seek out a experienced saddle maker or tack store owner. One who understands the three elements of saddle fit and their relationship to each other and has spent as much time in the saddle as they have building saddles or running their tack store. REFERENCES

No bubble burst or parade rained on. All points taken. We were just providing additional information and adding another voice to the conversation. Given the resources in the industry, a definitive study of "saddle fit" is not feasible, as the question is too complex. We agree the there have been "studies" done, but these have been conducted by individuals and companies to support their products or interests and these studies should be questioned. In this case the students that did the study have no dog in the fight. To summarily dismiss the students study because their methods are seen to be flawed is not fair to these students and if a formal method is required for validity, then a lot of information in this forum should also be summarily dismissed as it is based on opinion and life experience not a formal method. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Even if their study may be flawed, they have done something that no individual, Corporation, Vet College, or University with an Equine Science program has done and made available to the general public to our knowledge. If someone is aware of other studies, please let everyone know and how one can access the study. Yes, the study was narrow, but given the scope of the question and the complexities, small studies looking at specific variables will hopefully provide building blocks towards answering the question of "saddle fit". In reality we are at ground zero in answering the question of "saddle fit" in a formal or organized way that some are looking for. So, any information is helpful even if it is questionable as sometimes a segment in the questionable info will answer another question. A lot more work and conversation is needed.

One of our members informed us of a study done by New Mexico State University. Given that the study looked at three veriables, it is very comprehensive. This is the only study on saddle fit that I have seen. Their results, observations, and conclusions are very interesting and food for thought. The link is below. Study link

Johanna, The breakfast is for all saddlemakers, tree makers, carvers etc. not just ASMA Members. Bob