Stamping Tool B S

[JRedding]

Got to throw in on this one, I agree and disagree with some of what's being said. Craftools do serve a purpose as I see it, they're great for someone to take a dip into leatherwork with before you know if it's something you'll fall in love with. They've certainly made it affordable for a lot of us to get started. If it weren't for cheap priced tools the upper end of the tool market would have very few customers. It's doubtful very many people would lay down a thousand dollars for a selection of Kings, Beards, Barnes etc. just to see if they liked tooling leather. The people who should be most supportive of cheap tools are the guys who make expensive tools because the makers of cheap tools are the ones who bring people into leather tooling initially and create customers for the makers of upper end tools. That said there is no denying the benefit of a better made tool. Better quality steel, better knurling that makes it easier to tool for long periods, and most of all a sharper, crisper imprint that can only be made by a tool that's machined instead of cast.Better tools are made by people who have a greater knowledge of how a tool will be used and what's expected of it day in and day out. That's part of what you pay for when you pay thirty to fifty dollars for a single tool, you're not only paying for a better made tool but you're also paying to receive the benefit of they're knowledge and experience using them that they apply to designing and building a better tool. I have buckets of Craftools I've bought and inherited, but I also have racks of tools I've paid a small fortune for. I do have a few Craftools amongst my regulars and I have some I don't think the finest toolers in the world could make anything look better than crap with. I'm really against cheap swivel knives, if I could only afford to splurge on one good tool it would be swivel knife, I disagree with Slick that there's little difference. My ol' truck will get up to eighty but it's not much like eighty in a sportscar, that's about the difference to me between a two hundred dollar swivel knife and a seven dollar swivel knife. I doubt you'll meet very many toolers who've really reached a high level of craftsmanship who don't mostly use the more expensive tools. If a person is tooling decent with cheap tools I would be willing to promise if you set that same person down with a selection of the finer tools there will be a very noticeable improvement in the overall quality of what they can do with better tools and the same talent.

[CitizenKate]

Well said, Mr. Redding.

Kate

[WyomingSlick]

Who can tell which flower center is a craftool, and which one isn't?

Who can tell which basket stamp is craftool, and which one isn't?

Is that the best you can do? For a rebuttal, you pick two tools that any leather carver would classify as "very critical" in that they are very important to the over all effect of the design? There is no doubt that today's custom tool makers are producing some of, if not the best stamps ever seen. And yes, I would say that if you do quite a bit of basketweaving work, or if you do quite a bit of Sheridan style carving, then you are justified in investing the $35 and $50 for those King tools. But where's the big differance in the bevelers, seeders, and bargrounders?

My point is that to dismiss Craftools as "craptools" is very unfair, and downright snobbery. No, Craftools are not what they used to be. But before Tandy bought Craftool in the early 60's from Dick Gehan they made a pretty good tool. It is an old story in this world that after a corporate takeover, the quality of a product usually declines as corporate decisions are driven more by $$$$$ than pride in their product.

I certainly think they let things slip in the last three decades. For example, in the early 50s, the average stamp cost about a buck and a half which was about the hourly wage paid the average working man. The average working man now makes 12-13 bucks an hour but does Tandy sell their tools for that? Well, no....now that they have outsourced their Craftool operation to Japan, they are selling them for $3.33.

Now is that a bargain, or not, to the many 4-H kids and Scouts who enter the hobby each year. Who do you think buys the majority of the tools they sell every year? You sure don't turn around and buy a new #200 beveler every year. If they were able to charge 12-13 dollars for the average stamp, then yes, they could still be producing all of their tools to their previous standards. Especially now that they have moved to a cheaper labor market. In that regard, it is a move they should have made a long time ago. They lost most of their quality tool makers a long time ago in the US. It will be interesting to see if they will be able to get the ball rolling in the other direction and start producing better stamps.

Edited January 9, 2010 by WyomingSlick

[Denise]

I don't use stamping tools so I am not speaking from experience, but from reading this thread, you all seem to be agreeing - the old Craftools were decent quality using tools. The newer ones are entry level tools whose quality doesn't match the old ones or the more expensive tools. To my understanding, then, knowing when a Craftool was made is important when determining it's quality.

[DaCodaBuchan]

I believe this started as a complaint against people bending tools, stating that properly cased leather and techniques would yield a bend free environment. This may or may not be true.

Now we are debating the quality of tool brands. This is something I was just researching and I'd love to see who wins in the end. My only comments are that every can not afford a DeWalt drill, that does not make their need to attach a few hinges, or build a doghouse any less important than the next mans. We here all have a need to produce a nice basket weave. If you can afford the best handmade tools I suggest you use them. I hope to someday, but that does not mean I shouldn't spend the six dollars to get a Tandy tool in the meantime. There is an obvious quality diffrence there is no argument to that. Just looking at the stamp samples in this forum you can see that there is a lot left to personal taste. Some would say that a Louis Vuitton wallet is just like the $12 one at wal-mart, others would disagree. I personaly am using the tools that came with the Ez Kit, they suck. I have nothing to compare them too but they suck. The flower stamp barely leaves a print. I have to beat the hell out of it just to make an impression. Some of that is my ability to case leather, most of it is the tool. I bought their Fluer de Lis and it works much better. Leaving me to believe that cheap tools made their way into the cheap kit. The quality of the leather tells me that they stuck bottom of the barrel stuff in that box. This leaves me to believe that I need better tools, but until then I settle. I've always been one to say that things are worth the expense.

[TwinOaks]

I believe that an artist can create art with a variety of tools. However, higher quality tools create better quality work.

I started with Craftools, and still use them- only because I can't afford $30-$50 each. I've also taken to making some of my own tools from SS bolts and rod. I started doing this because I get better beveling from a sanded and polished bolt shank than I do from a piece of poorly chromed pot metal. Some of my stamps are hand-me-down tools from my dad's leather kit, and they work very well. Most of the more recent ones (purchased in the last two years) show less quality, less attention to detail, etc. For the "basic 7" type sets, the craftools are more than adequate. For a professional leatherworker, they are, in my opinion, less than satisfactory.

Edited January 9, 2010 by TwinOaks

[JRedding]

In response to" where's the difference " just one opinion but a better class beveler would be my own second choice of tools to improve my work right after a good swivel knife. The more expensive bevelers are much easier to run than the cheap ones, the angle is correct and the curvature depending on which you choose is the key to effortlessly walking a beveler while beveling smooth. As for the difference in appearance and quality added to the finished work, the more expensive bevelers are always made with more lines per inch than the mass produced, and if you know what you're shopping for and ask you can buy them at more or less lines per inch to achieve different effects. As for bargrounders to me they are the most difficult tool to buy a nice, even set of. Even the finest toolmakers will admit they're one of the most difficult tools to produce. When makers like King and Beard struggle a little to produce a beatiful set the likelyhood of a four dollar bargrounder even being acceptable on a professional level is slim. I've wore out a few sets and dread having to replace them every time, I've returned one or two out of a three peice set to Barry King more than once, not that they were bad they just weren't identical to eachother. Some toolers I know tell of waiting over a year for a set of Ellis Barnes and pay a lot more than I do for Kings. So I'd have to disagree there's no difference. I've sold a lot of work that had a Craftool tooling job and I felt it was good or I wouldn't have let it go.But I like what I do with the tools I use today a lot better. Everyone strives for their personal best at this that's part of what it's about, and no one should back down just because they don't have an unlimited tool budget. I think the point I'm trying to make is if you like tooling, keep going with what you have. And if you are going to stick with it, it's worth the investment of the better tools, they will make it easier, more fun, and produce better results. Everyone talks like this is the investment of a lifetime, it's really not as bad as it appears. I have a small rack of tools that I use ninety plus percent of the time that consists of about three dozen tools. I tool from saddles to belts and wallets with pretty much the same tools. Of three dozen tools two dozen of them are upper end expensive tools, the other dozen are Craftools, most have been modified but three or four are original. Two dozen Barry King type tools aren't so expensive it's unattainable over time. Leather tools are the one place I've found money can buy happiness, because I'm happy when I turn out something and it looks like I dreamt it would, and I'm able to do it without a lot of frustration and struggling, that's what spending the dollars on a better class of tools has bought me and after doing it I'd still reccomend it everyday of the week. As for bending and breaking tools I've been rough on them all, I tool pretty dry and put plenty of swing behind it so I've torqued a few.

[UKRay]

I've sat back and watched this thread for a while and can sympathise with both sides, BUT, and it is a huge but, there is little point in an argument where nobody listens or learns.

It seems to me that forum members could learn a lot from Wyoming Slick as his knowledge of the 'best' craftools is self-evident. I'd like to see (possibly in another post) lists of crafttools that will do the job and some idea when the patterns/manufacture/whatever changed and they became less attractive to the regular user.

On the negative side, it seems that our Slick is a tad too up-front and confrontational to make his point without ruffling a few feathers. Slack back a tad, Slick, and I'm sure people will take more notice of you.

BTW, referring to something that a guy has spent years learning about and obviously loves with a passion - and is in a position to share his knowledge with others on this forum - as crap (ie: craptools) isn't just nonsensical, it is also pretty rude too. Hold 'em in guys and learn, that is what we are here for isn't it?

Equally, and as usual, I have to agree with everything that Jim Redding says about profession tool use. Jim said quite clearly that some Craftools were good enough for professional use but some patterns are better from Pro makers. Who can possibly argue with that? (loved the truck analogy, Jim!)

Before anyone bites my ass, I have used Craftools, almost exclusively, for more than thirty years. Not because they are especially good, but because they are all we can get this side of the pond without spending a fortune in shipping charges and customs fees. Yes, I do know a good tool when I use it (I own several Pro Tools) and my work sells well enough for me to think that other people appreciate the quality of my tooling.

On the subject of tool bend: some of my Craftools are good and others, notably the later ones are poorer quality. I have bent a few shanks recently - not through misuse, but because the tool is not up to the job. I use the same kit as almost everyone else - a mid-sized Tandy maul for stamping large designs and a small one for smaller stuff.

Most of my tools don't bend but several of the newer ones have done. In fact, I purchased a new spare for one of my favorite designs and it bent first time out of the box - I had been using its predecessor for the past 30 years without any hassle. I used in exactly the same way as before. No differences at all. I went back to using the original and it is still going - that was two years ago.

I am keen to invest in more pro-tools but am biding my time until I learn more about them. Maybe - if Slick doesn't lose it with us all - I'll learn which craftools to buy and won't spend the money... Maybe! LOL

Right now it would make sense to recognise that there are two (or more) different opinions here and learn to live with both of them - IMHO, nobody is ever completely right.

Ray

[Hilly]

Is that the best you can do? For a rebuttal, you pick two tools that any leather carver would classify as "very critical" in that they are very important to the over all effect of the design? There is no doubt that today's custom tool makers are producing some of, if not the best stamps ever seen. And yes, I would say that if you do quite a bit of basketweaving work, or if you do quite a bit of Sheridan style carving, then you are justified in investing the $35 and $50 for those King tools. But where's the big differance in the bevelers, seeders, and bargrounders?

My point is that to dismiss Craftools as "craptools" is very unfair, and downright snobbery. No, Craftools are not what they used to be. But before Tandy bought Craftool in the early 60's from Dick Gehan they made a pretty good tool. It is an old story in this world that after a corporate takeover, the quality of a product usually declines as corporate decisions are driven more by $$$ than pride in their product.

I certainly think they let things slip in the last three decades. For example, in the early 50s, the average stamp cost about a buck and a half which was about the hourly wage paid the average working man. The average working man now makes 12-13 bucks an hour but does Tandy sell their tools for that? Well, no....now that they have outsourced their Craftool operation to Japan, they are selling them for $3.33.

Now is that a bargain, or not, to the many 4-H kids and Scouts who enter the hobby each year. Who do you think buys the majority of the tools they sell every year? You sure don't turn around and buy a new #200 beveler every year. If they were able to charge 12-13 dollars for the average stamp, then yes, they could still be producing all of their tools to their previous standards. Especially now that they have moved to a cheaper labor market. In that regard, it is a move they should have made a long time ago. They lost most of their quality tool makers a long time ago in the US. It will be interesting to see if they will be able to get the ball rolling in the other direction and start producing better stamps.

A picture is worth 1,000 words:)

You just plain get better looking results with better made tools. Even if your work is flawless, it will still look better when done with better made tools.

Just to get things straight, I've never used the term "CrapTools" in even one of my posts. And I've already said that craftools are a great way to get your feet wet. I'm getting more serious about my work, and I simply prefer crisp, clear impressions over the blurry impressions that the lesser quality tools make. I'm not in 4-H anymore, I've grown up, and can afford to buy quality tools. Even if it's only 1 tool every couple of months, I'm gonna replace a lot of the craftools I currently have AND USE. Call it snobbery if you like. A lot of us know better. To me it just sounds like you're whining.

[Spence]

Well said, Ray.

And so much better than I was about to.