Stamping Tool B S

[Johanna]

I wish I had a pic of Billy 2 shews' tools with their mangled peened tops. He uses a regular carpenters hammer, and not only is the metal on metal sound loud, it kills the tools fast. I wonder how one of the better quality tools would hold up to that kind of abuse? I just happened to think about his messed up tools making beautiful art while reading this discussion.

Johanna

[Jordan]

Yes I was watching his dvd the other day and all his tools looked like shrooms. LOL works for him!

[WyomingSlick]

I bent an early Barry King veiner and pearshader. At that time, Barry was making the shank of the tool round instead of elongated where the impression tied into the shank. I do follow the Council mold of deep tooling but actually bent the tools stamping a pair of spur straps. The tools were brand new and bent immediately. Barry replaced them w/ no questions and I noticed latter that many of his tools were left beefier through the transition. Have bent some craptools by useing them for pry-bars, screw drivers, awls, nail sets, ect. Craptools actually work good for everything but their intended purpose.

Gee whiz........they worked pretty damn good for Al Stohlman's intended purposes for a lot of years. Or are you referring only to the recently made Craftools when you say "craptools"?

[Kevinjohnson]

Gee whiz........they worked pretty damn good for Al Stohlman's intended purposes for a lot of years. Or are you referring only to the recently made Craftools when you say "craptools"?

I actually do have a few old craftools that aren't bad (pre chromed). They are also not that good, average. Not as good as old McMillans, Hackbarth, ect. Craptools do have their place. Almost everyone in the leather trade, at one time or anouther, probably started w/ a pile of these tools due to the availability, price and lack of knowledge. As a persons skills progress, however, so do the quality of there tools. Quality of tools most often corrilates w/ quality of work. Not all the time, but most. When Harbor Freight becomes the official tool of NASA, I'll throw out my vintage/handmade, top shelf tools and buy a gift certificate to Tandy's. As for the new craptools..... make an impression of a new craptool and put it next to a similar impression of a Don King or a Bob Beard or a Woodruff or a Lonnie Height and ask your customer which one looks better.

Ever noticed the number of craptools that people acumulate. These are the same people that say that they can't afford a $55 handmade tool after they have spent hundreds of dollars on useless pig metal.

If I remember right, Ann and Al did use a lot of Craftools. Their books were also promoted by Tandys. Given the quality of their work and the tool choices of today, do you think the modern day Ann and Al would load up on chromed sticks of pot iron? Really!?

[WyomingSlick]

I actually do have a few old craftools that aren't bad (pre chromed). They are also not that good, average. Not as good as old McMillans, Hackbarth, ect. Craptools do have their place. Almost everyone in the leather trade, at one time or anouther, probably started w/ a pile of these tools due to the availability, price and lack of knowledge. As a persons skills progress, however, so do the quality of there tools. Quality of tools most often corrilates w/ quality of work. Not all the time, but most. When Harbor Freight becomes the official tool of NASA, I'll throw out my vintage/handmade, top shelf tools and buy a gift certificate to Tandy's. As for the new craptools..... make an impression of a new craptool and put it next to a similar impression of a Don King or a Bob Beard or a Woodruff or a Lonnie Height and ask your customer which one looks better.

Ever noticed the number of craptools that people acumulate. These are the same people that say that they can't afford a $55 handmade tool after they have spent hundreds of dollars on useless pig metal.

If I remember right, Ann and Al did use a lot of Craftools. Their books were also promoted by Tandys. Given the quality of their work and the tool choices of today, do you think the modern day Ann and Al would load up on chromed sticks of pot iron? Really!?

LOL You sure do suffer from an extreme case of "Snap-On Fever"!! There is no doubt that a Barry King basketweave that sells for $50 or more bucks does a better job than a Craftool basketweave which sells for $3.33 as of right now. So there you have a case of one tool costing 15 times as much as another. Yes, that cost is justifiable if you are a pro producing top of the line saddles, etc. Is it justified if you are the average guy who makes a few belts, wallets, purses, etc. in a year? No! You mentioned Harbor freight tools. I googled NASCAR and I see that CRAFTSMAN are their pick. Yup, a good tool....but a Craftsman wrench doesn't cost 15 times as much as a same sized Harbor Freight wrench. I have a big toolbox full of Craftsman tools and they are good tools. I also have some beautiful Bonney and Snap-On tools that make the Craftsmans look a bit clunky. And then I have some Harbor freight tools that do just fine for tightening a bolt. But getting back to leather stamping tools. I will not say that Barry King's basket weave tools are not worth 50 bucks. I am well aware of the investment, both in tooling equipment and time, that is required to produce a stamping tool like one of Barry's basketweaves or geometrics. BUT....but the fact remains that for the average guy; he can get a whole handful of tools and many patterns that are not produced by the custom toolmakers for the same money that he spends on a few "Handmade custom tools". And does a $25 beveler from Barry work that much better than a Craftool or a Craft Japan tool? Perhaps.......... that investment is justified for the common tools like a beveler, but what about if you are talking about a seeder. In pic one, I did some beveling, both smooth and checkered, with some Barry King, Ray Hackbarth, McMillen, Craftool, Craft Japan, and one of my modified Craftools that I ground a steeper angle on and checkered. Big differance? No! And to the customer? Even a bigger no! And which seeder, again from differant makers, are you going to pick as the best? And in the next pic - which bargrounder is the best of the 5 differant makers? The big differance to the customer is going to be the overall effect of your tooling which is created 95% by your facility with your tools and your artistic ability. I have looked at a lot of leatherwork over the years and it is the overall appearance that strikes the eye first and not the individual tool impressions. Perhaps it is a good selling point to point to a rack of $25 to $100 tools each to justify the price for your work, but I am sure that what is going to sell it is the quality of the actual work. And that comes from critical evaluation of your work. learning from your mistakes, and striving to do better.

And I will say that for most people's work I see, the biggest fault is their swivel knife work. LOL There is a lot of silly talk that goes on there also. A lot of foolish talk about "yokes that spin for 20+ seconds"!! It takes very little force to turn a yoke on a swivel knife - way less than the resistance in the leather to the turning of the blade. Tons of great swivel knife work has been produced by standard non ball bearing swivel knifes. One of those, matched with the proper leather preparation (casing), sharp and stropped blade, proper technique, and practice...with a heavy emphasis on PRACTICE, will do immeasurably more for your work than some damn ball bearing!

In summation, I will not argue that custom made tools today are not worth the money, and if a fellow has the money, he should invest in some of them. But to dismiss Craftools as "craptools" is totally uncalled for. No, they are not the quality they once were in the early days of the 40s - early 60s but for $3.33 each they will fill many needs for a leatherworker. And many of them, including early day vintage Craftools (No letter prefix) may be picked up on eBay for great prices.

"The use of your tools means way more than the tools you use!"

[Hilly]

<snip>

And I will say that for most people's work I see, the biggest fault is their swivel knife work. LOL There is a lot of silly talk that goes on there also. A lot of foolish talk about "yokes that spin for 20+ seconds"!! It takes very little force to turn a yoke on a swivel knife - way less than the resistance in the leather to the turning of the blade. Tons of great swivel knife work has been produced by standard non ball bearing swivel knifes. One of those, matched with the proper leather preparation (casing), sharp and stropped blade, proper technique, and practice...with a heavy emphasis on PRACTICE, will do immeasurably more for your work than some damn ball bearing!

<snip summore>

Try carving some intricate Sheridan design with a swivel knife that doesn't swivel. Add some arthritis in the hands, and some failing eyesight. Yes, the tools need to work the way they are intended to work, or they are worth nothing. The ball bearings or whatever is in the Crattools freeze up and make it 10 time harder to not wreck a good piece of leather. Yes, I love my $100 swivel knife that the yoke spins for 20+ seconds. It's a matter of personal choice what someone feel the most comfortable with, and what works best for them.

Maybe you can create a masterpiece with a craftool. Maybe the effort it takes someone else is not worth saving the money. Maybe having to return bent craftools for a refund or exchange is more of a pain in the butt than they are worth in time, mileage, wear and tear on a vehicle, etc. It costs more just to ship a tool back than the cost of a new one. Maybe someone prefers a tool that won't break or bend when it's needed. Just because someone else is a glutton for punishment does not mean the next guy is. Some of us have been taught to buy the best quality we can afford, and if we can afford a good quality tool that will last 10 time longer than a cheapo, it is probably worth the money. Some people just prefer the professional look a good quality stamp makes.

Sure, craftools are a great way to start out, but most people who are serious about their work move on to better quality tools at some point. Until Tandy starts getting a better selection of quality tools, my money is going to the guy that already makes better tools. Just my $0.02.

[RWB]

It is hard to produce quality work without quality tools and materials. Not impossible, but hard none the less.

Ross

[WyomingSlick]

<snip>

And I will say that for most people's work I see, the biggest fault is their swivel knife work. LOL There is a lot of silly talk that goes on there also. A lot of foolish talk about "yokes that spin for 20+ seconds"!! It takes very little force to turn a yoke on a swivel knife - way less than the resistance in the leather to the turning of the blade. Tons of great swivel knife work has been produced by standard non ball bearing swivel knifes. One of those, matched with the proper leather preparation (casing), sharp and stropped blade, proper technique, and practice...with a heavy emphasis on PRACTICE, will do immeasurably more for your work than some damn ball bearing!

<snip summore>

Try carving some intricate Sheridan design with a swivel knife that doesn't swivel. Add some arthritis in the hands, and some failing eyesight. Yes, the tools need to work the way they are intended to work, or they are worth nothing. The ball bearings or whatever is in the Crattools freeze up and make it 10 time harder to not wreck a good piece of leather. Yes, I love my $100 swivel knife that the yoke spins for 20+ seconds. It's a matter of personal choice what someone feel the most comfortable with, and what works best for them.

Maybe you can create a masterpiece with a craftool. Maybe the effort it takes someone else is not worth saving the money. Maybe having to return bent craftools for a refund or exchange is more of a pain in the butt than they are worth in time, mileage, wear and tear on a vehicle, etc. It costs more just to ship a tool back than the cost of a new one. Maybe someone prefers a tool that won't break or bend when it's needed. Just because someone else is a glutton for punishment does not mean the next guy is. Some of us have been taught to buy the best quality we can afford, and if we can afford a good quality tool that will last 10 time longer than a cheapo, it is probably worth the money. Some people just prefer the professional look a good quality stamp makes.

Sure, craftools are a great way to start out, but most people who are serious about their work move on to better quality tools at some point. Until Tandy starts getting a better selection of quality tools, my money is going to the guy that already makes better tools. Just my $0.02.

A simple test to determine the value of a ball bearing yoke. 1. Hold any swivel knife in your hand as you hold it while carving. 2. Swivel the barrel and note the force required to turn it. 3. Now repeat 1 and 2 while applying pressure on yoke with your finger like you do while carving and again note the amount of effort to turn it. 4. Again repeat step 3 while the blade is in cased leather making a cut.

In engineering or scientific terms the equation would be: F1 = Amount of force to rotate barrel while pressure is on yoke

F2 = Amount of force to turn blade in leather

F3 = Amount of force to carve design in leather

So you would have: F1 + F2 = F3

Now I have used quite a few differant swivel knives in my time and no, cross my fingers, I don't suffer from arthritis yet in my fifties. But with every one of the knives in the attached picture, I find that the effort to turn the blade in the leather accounts for at minimum: 90% of the effort, and in many uses; perhaps as much as 99%. The blade used and it's sharpness are of way, way more concern than the free spinning of the yoke.

I would add that the structure of the blade will make more differance than the yoke spin, ie...a hollow ground blade or a figure carving are noticably easier to carve with than the straight flat blade. Add in the quality of the carving leather and the proper casing technique and that yoke "drag" becomes a null question in comparison to the other factors affecting carving.

Yes........... you had better love that knife..........after all......... you paid $100 for it. I myself will suggest that the aspiring leather carver spend his money on several decent blades, a flat diamond honing plate, some stropping rouge, Al Stohlman's book on tools, and then practice to develop his carving skill after reading what the masters say about the subject in their books.

So, who can tell which beveler did which beveling? Identify the seeders as to maker? Whose bargrounder is best?

[bruce johnson]

I see different impressions and checkering patterns on the bevelers. It wouldn't matter to me whose they are. I would probably use a few different ones to get different effects, just like I do out of my own rack. I don't use an 809 on an interior stem, and I don't use a Woodruff on a border. I'd agree that the detail needed on a small seeder isn't much. They are each a little different, and I'd go with whatever caught my eye. I like the center 3 a little better over the two end ones. On bargrounders I kind of figure small dots are small dots. Some bargrounders are better than others about not sticking. I've got a couple that are alright, but I don't barground much. I think the bigger differences show up in the single impression stamps like baskets and blocks. To carry this "pick whose stamp is whose" I am attaching one of mine that compares a couple off the rack tools to some that cost me a little more. In all fairness to this off the rack waffle, I tried one a few weeks ago, that wasn't nearly this good.

Another interesting little deal here. I looked up some old Tandy catalogs today. I have an old Hinckley-Tandy from the late 40s probably. Stamps ranged from 50 cents to $1.50, prices on request for the bigger ones. In 1954-55, one to two dollars bought most of them. They aren't much more than that now relative to everything else.

[Hilly]

ame='Hilly' date='08 January 2010 - 11:30 AM' timestamp='1262968204' post='137887']

A simple test to determine the value of a ball bearing yoke. 1. Hold any swivel knife in your hand as you hold it while carving. 2. Swivel the barrel and note the force required to turn it. 3. Now repeat 1 and 2 while applying pressure on yoke with your finger like you do while carving and again note the amount of effort to turn it. 4. Again repeat step 3 while the blade is in cased leather making a cut.

In engineering or scientific terms the equation would be: F1 = Amount of force to rotate barrel while pressure is on yoke

F2 = Amount of force to turn blade in leather

F3 = Amount of force to carve design in leather

So you would have: F1 + F2 = F3

Now I have used quite a few differant swivel knives in my time and no, cross my fingers, I don't suffer from arthritis yet in my fifties. But with every one of the knives in the attached picture, I find that the effort to turn the blade in the leather accounts for at minimum: 90% of the effort, and in many uses; perhaps as much as 99%. The blade used and it's sharpness are of way, way more concern than the free spinning of the yoke.

I would add that the structure of the blade will make more differance than the yoke spin, ie...a hollow ground blade or a figure carving are noticably easier to carve with than the straight flat blade. Add in the quality of the carving leather and the proper casing technique and that yoke "drag" becomes a null question in comparison to the other factors affecting carving.

Yes........... you had better love that knife..........after all......... you paid $100 for it. I myself will suggest that the aspiring leather carver spend his money on several decent blades, a flat diamond honing plate, some stropping rouge, Al Stohlman's book on tools, and then practice to develop his carving skill after reading what the masters say about the subject in their books.

So, who can tell which beveler did which beveling? Identify the seeders as to maker? Whose bargrounder is best?

Who can tell which flower center is a craftool, and which one isn't?

Who can tell which basket stamp is craftool, and which one isn't?