Stamping Tool B S

[TwinOaks]

I believe that an artist can create art with a variety of tools. However, higher quality tools create better quality work.

I started with Craftools, and still use them- only because I can't afford $30-$50 each. I've also taken to making some of my own tools from SS bolts and rod. I started doing this because I get better beveling from a sanded and polished bolt shank than I do from a piece of poorly chromed pot metal. Some of my stamps are hand-me-down tools from my dad's leather kit, and they work very well. Most of the more recent ones (purchased in the last two years) show less quality, less attention to detail, etc. For the "basic 7" type sets, the craftools are more than adequate. For a professional leatherworker, they are, in my opinion, less than satisfactory.

Edited January 9, 2010 by TwinOaks

[JRedding]

In response to" where's the difference " just one opinion but a better class beveler would be my own second choice of tools to improve my work right after a good swivel knife. The more expensive bevelers are much easier to run than the cheap ones, the angle is correct and the curvature depending on which you choose is the key to effortlessly walking a beveler while beveling smooth. As for the difference in appearance and quality added to the finished work, the more expensive bevelers are always made with more lines per inch than the mass produced, and if you know what you're shopping for and ask you can buy them at more or less lines per inch to achieve different effects. As for bargrounders to me they are the most difficult tool to buy a nice, even set of. Even the finest toolmakers will admit they're one of the most difficult tools to produce. When makers like King and Beard struggle a little to produce a beatiful set the likelyhood of a four dollar bargrounder even being acceptable on a professional level is slim. I've wore out a few sets and dread having to replace them every time, I've returned one or two out of a three peice set to Barry King more than once, not that they were bad they just weren't identical to eachother. Some toolers I know tell of waiting over a year for a set of Ellis Barnes and pay a lot more than I do for Kings. So I'd have to disagree there's no difference. I've sold a lot of work that had a Craftool tooling job and I felt it was good or I wouldn't have let it go.But I like what I do with the tools I use today a lot better. Everyone strives for their personal best at this that's part of what it's about, and no one should back down just because they don't have an unlimited tool budget. I think the point I'm trying to make is if you like tooling, keep going with what you have. And if you are going to stick with it, it's worth the investment of the better tools, they will make it easier, more fun, and produce better results. Everyone talks like this is the investment of a lifetime, it's really not as bad as it appears. I have a small rack of tools that I use ninety plus percent of the time that consists of about three dozen tools. I tool from saddles to belts and wallets with pretty much the same tools. Of three dozen tools two dozen of them are upper end expensive tools, the other dozen are Craftools, most have been modified but three or four are original. Two dozen Barry King type tools aren't so expensive it's unattainable over time. Leather tools are the one place I've found money can buy happiness, because I'm happy when I turn out something and it looks like I dreamt it would, and I'm able to do it without a lot of frustration and struggling, that's what spending the dollars on a better class of tools has bought me and after doing it I'd still reccomend it everyday of the week. As for bending and breaking tools I've been rough on them all, I tool pretty dry and put plenty of swing behind it so I've torqued a few.

[UKRay]

I've sat back and watched this thread for a while and can sympathise with both sides, BUT, and it is a huge but, there is little point in an argument where nobody listens or learns.

It seems to me that forum members could learn a lot from Wyoming Slick as his knowledge of the 'best' craftools is self-evident. I'd like to see (possibly in another post) lists of crafttools that will do the job and some idea when the patterns/manufacture/whatever changed and they became less attractive to the regular user.

On the negative side, it seems that our Slick is a tad too up-front and confrontational to make his point without ruffling a few feathers. Slack back a tad, Slick, and I'm sure people will take more notice of you.

BTW, referring to something that a guy has spent years learning about and obviously loves with a passion - and is in a position to share his knowledge with others on this forum - as crap (ie: craptools) isn't just nonsensical, it is also pretty rude too. Hold 'em in guys and learn, that is what we are here for isn't it?

Equally, and as usual, I have to agree with everything that Jim Redding says about profession tool use. Jim said quite clearly that some Craftools were good enough for professional use but some patterns are better from Pro makers. Who can possibly argue with that? (loved the truck analogy, Jim!)

Before anyone bites my ass, I have used Craftools, almost exclusively, for more than thirty years. Not because they are especially good, but because they are all we can get this side of the pond without spending a fortune in shipping charges and customs fees. Yes, I do know a good tool when I use it (I own several Pro Tools) and my work sells well enough for me to think that other people appreciate the quality of my tooling.

On the subject of tool bend: some of my Craftools are good and others, notably the later ones are poorer quality. I have bent a few shanks recently - not through misuse, but because the tool is not up to the job. I use the same kit as almost everyone else - a mid-sized Tandy maul for stamping large designs and a small one for smaller stuff.

Most of my tools don't bend but several of the newer ones have done. In fact, I purchased a new spare for one of my favorite designs and it bent first time out of the box - I had been using its predecessor for the past 30 years without any hassle. I used in exactly the same way as before. No differences at all. I went back to using the original and it is still going - that was two years ago.

I am keen to invest in more pro-tools but am biding my time until I learn more about them. Maybe - if Slick doesn't lose it with us all - I'll learn which craftools to buy and won't spend the money... Maybe! LOL

Right now it would make sense to recognise that there are two (or more) different opinions here and learn to live with both of them - IMHO, nobody is ever completely right.

Ray

[Hilly]

Is that the best you can do? For a rebuttal, you pick two tools that any leather carver would classify as "very critical" in that they are very important to the over all effect of the design? There is no doubt that today's custom tool makers are producing some of, if not the best stamps ever seen. And yes, I would say that if you do quite a bit of basketweaving work, or if you do quite a bit of Sheridan style carving, then you are justified in investing the $35 and $50 for those King tools. But where's the big differance in the bevelers, seeders, and bargrounders?

My point is that to dismiss Craftools as "craptools" is very unfair, and downright snobbery. No, Craftools are not what they used to be. But before Tandy bought Craftool in the early 60's from Dick Gehan they made a pretty good tool. It is an old story in this world that after a corporate takeover, the quality of a product usually declines as corporate decisions are driven more by $$$ than pride in their product.

I certainly think they let things slip in the last three decades. For example, in the early 50s, the average stamp cost about a buck and a half which was about the hourly wage paid the average working man. The average working man now makes 12-13 bucks an hour but does Tandy sell their tools for that? Well, no....now that they have outsourced their Craftool operation to Japan, they are selling them for $3.33.

Now is that a bargain, or not, to the many 4-H kids and Scouts who enter the hobby each year. Who do you think buys the majority of the tools they sell every year? You sure don't turn around and buy a new #200 beveler every year. If they were able to charge 12-13 dollars for the average stamp, then yes, they could still be producing all of their tools to their previous standards. Especially now that they have moved to a cheaper labor market. In that regard, it is a move they should have made a long time ago. They lost most of their quality tool makers a long time ago in the US. It will be interesting to see if they will be able to get the ball rolling in the other direction and start producing better stamps.

A picture is worth 1,000 words:)

You just plain get better looking results with better made tools. Even if your work is flawless, it will still look better when done with better made tools.

Just to get things straight, I've never used the term "CrapTools" in even one of my posts. And I've already said that craftools are a great way to get your feet wet. I'm getting more serious about my work, and I simply prefer crisp, clear impressions over the blurry impressions that the lesser quality tools make. I'm not in 4-H anymore, I've grown up, and can afford to buy quality tools. Even if it's only 1 tool every couple of months, I'm gonna replace a lot of the craftools I currently have AND USE. Call it snobbery if you like. A lot of us know better. To me it just sounds like you're whining.

[Spence]

Well said, Ray.

And so much better than I was about to.

[WyomingSlick]

I think we have established that many people are not happy with their experiances with recently made Craftools. I would like to hear how anybody is faring with the newer Craftools that are being made in Japan. Now that they are selling them for $3.33 each I am considering

buying some of the newer patterns.

I still object to Craftools being called "craptools" unless you want to add a qualifier that you are referring to the newer letter-prefix tools and not the older tools made before the mid sixties. As you can see in the atachment, my Craftool waffle stamps do some better in comparison than Bruce's.

I urge anybody who are considering Craftools to make an effort to find some good buys on eBay. There are many good buys there as a lot of people took up leatherwork in the 50s and 60s and many of their tools are now appearing on eBay from estate sales and retirement sales.

[wildrose]

"I'm not in 4-H anymore, I've grown up, and can afford to buy quality tools."

I was never in 4-H (except as a leader), am grown up (at least, I'd like to think so, at 42!) and I still use Craftools. As some of us have stated, it's what we can afford and I've not had a customer complain yet. Come the day I can afford it, I suppose I'll seek better quality tools, but at this stage, I have a 5 yr old son, alot of debt, and thus other things to spend the money on.

[DaCodaBuchan]

I think that I will look to replace my stamps after I buy them. For now I need stamps just to do my work. If I ever make money I'll pour all of it right back into buying better tools to replace my craftools, until then they at least give me the diversity of patterns I need.

[JLSleather]

I was just thinking about this TYPE of thing today. Bought a new strap cutter .... you know, the cheap wooden wingnut type thing.

I have knives, and I could cut staps with a straightedge. But that's time-consuming.

I could have spent $70-100 on the stainless model, but it doesn't cut any straighter (though I'm sure it will wear longer).

This CHEAP wooden model is a compromise, and one I would do again. In fact, since this isn't the first one I've owned, I already DID do it again. I personally would not buy a tool for the sake of having it. Otherwise, I'd have

dies to cut the taper on every belt width (why mess with cutting it with knives)

dies to replace handbag patterns I plan on making more than twice (that WOULD save time)

you get the idea ...

Oh, yeah ... the guy that did my roof last year used a '79 Ford and some pitchforks that looked like they'd been uder the tires at least once. Roof is beautiful...

Edited January 10, 2010 by JLSleather

[crissy]

pondering the pyramids.... it is not the tool it is the creators

[rickeyfro]

LOL You sure do suffer from an extreme case of "Snap-On Fever"!! There is no doubt that a Barry King basketweave that sells for $50 or more bucks does a better job than a Craftool basketweave which sells for $3.33 as of right now. So there you have a case of one tool costing 15 times as much as another. Yes, that cost is justifiable if you are a pro producing top of the line saddles, etc. Is it justified if you are the average guy who makes a few belts, wallets, purses, etc. in a year? No! You mentioned Harbor freight tools. I googled NASCAR and I see that CRAFTSMAN are their pick. Yup, a good tool....but a Craftsman wrench doesn't cost 15 times as much as a same sized Harbor Freight wrench. I have a big toolbox full of Craftsman tools and they are good tools. I also have some beautiful Bonney and Snap-On tools that make the Craftsmans look a bit clunky. And then I have some Harbor freight tools that do just fine for tightening a bolt. But getting back to leather stamping tools. I will not say that Barry King's basket weave tools are not worth 50 bucks. I am well aware of the investment, both in tooling equipment and time, that is required to produce a stamping tool like one of Barry's basketweaves or geometrics. BUT....but the fact remains that for the average guy; he can get a whole handful of tools and many patterns that are not produced by the custom toolmakers for the same money that he spends on a few "Handmade custom tools". And does a $25 beveler from Barry work that much better than a Craftool or a Craft Japan tool? Perhaps.......... that investment is justified for the common tools like a beveler, but what about if you are talking about a seeder. In pic one, I did some beveling, both smooth and checkered, with some Barry King, Ray Hackbarth, McMillen, Craftool, Craft Japan, and one of my modified Craftools that I ground a steeper angle on and checkered. Big differance? No! And to the customer? Even a bigger no! And which seeder, again from differant makers, are you going to pick as the best? And in the next pic - which bargrounder is the best of the 5 differant makers? The big differance to the customer is going to be the overall effect of your tooling which is created 95% by your facility with your tools and your artistic ability. I have looked at a lot of leatherwork over the years and it is the overall appearance that strikes the eye first and not the individual tool impressions. Perhaps it is a good selling point to point to a rack of $25 to $100 tools each to justify the price for your work, but I am sure that what is going to sell it is the quality of the actual work. And that comes from critical evaluation of your work. learning from your mistakes, and striving to do better.

And I will say that for most people's work I see, the biggest fault is their swivel knife work. LOL There is a lot of silly talk that goes on there also. A lot of foolish talk about "yokes that spin for 20+ seconds"!! It takes very little force to turn a yoke on a swivel knife - way less than the resistance in the leather to the turning of the blade. Tons of great swivel knife work has been produced by standard non ball bearing swivel knifes. One of those, matched with the proper leather preparation (casing), sharp and stropped blade, proper technique, and practice...with a heavy emphasis on PRACTICE, will do immeasurably more for your work than some damn ball bearing!

In summation, I will not argue that custom made tools today are not worth the money, and if a fellow has the money, he should invest in some of them. But to dismiss Craftools as "craptools" is totally uncalled for. No, they are not the quality they once were in the early days of the 40s - early 60s but for $3.33 each they will fill many needs for a leatherworker. And many of them, including early day vintage Craftools (No letter prefix) may be picked up on eBay for great prices.

"The use of your tools means way more than the tools you use!"

Here's a question, who is it we have to justify spending our money too? Last time I checked I was free to spend mine on whatever I chose. If that was Snap On Wrenches or Barry King basketweaves that was totally up to me, as is calling something crap if , in my opinion it is. How about posting a few pics of your work so we can see for ourselves if you can get the same result with the craftools...

[Leather Bum]

I think we have established that many people are not happy with their experiances with recently made Craftools. I would like to hear how anybody is faring with the newer Craftools that are being made in Japan. Now that they are selling them for $3.33 each I am considering

buying some of the newer patterns.

I know this is off topic. . . but where are Craftools being sold for $3.33, and are you sure they are being made in Japan? If that is the case, I might seriously consider obtaining some because between the tools I have made in Taiwan and the ones made in Japan, I definitely think the Craft Japan and Kyoshin Elle (also Japan) tools make better impressions.

L'Bum

Edited January 10, 2010 by Leather Bum

[WyomingSlick]

I know this is off topic. . . but where are Craftools being sold for $3.33, and are you sure they are being made in Japan? If that is the case, I might seriously consider obtaining some because between the tools I have made in Taiwan and the ones made in Japan, I definitely think the Craft Japan and Kyoshin Elle (also Japan) tools make better impressions.

L'Bum

Damn, we missed the boat. 5 days ago, most all of their stamping tools were listed at $3.33 and the 2-d stamps at 1.99. I just checked and the price is back up to $7.99. Must have been a sale ( Christmas ??) that just ended. I hadn't looked at their site in a long time prior to a few days ago, as I am primarily interested in the older vintage Craftools (Made before 1962). I would suggest eBay first if you are looking for tools. Look for the auctions that list the tool # as being without a prefix letter. Example - you want a #200 nearly every time over a #B200. They started the letter prefix system around 1963. Around 1967-1968 they added the words "Made in the USA". I suppose this was to separate themselves from the MIDAS and KELLY tools that were being made overseas.

[Hilly]

I've never seen craftools for $3.33, either. All Tandy's craftool stamps are $3.99 for some of the 3D stamps, and $7.99 for most all of the rest. Maybe he's talking about some eBay auction or something.

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Good point Rickyfro! I am, and always will be my worst critic. When I spend hours stamping a fender or jockey or any piece of leather, I see every little detail as it appears and I know what is acceptable to me. I judge my tools by what I see as I am using them and over the years have determined which tools are worth spending more money on. I started with a handful of thickly chromed tools... mostly basket stamps and geometrics that I used once. I had seen the work of good saddlemakers and had tried to imitate their work with the Crafttools I had only to be sorely disappointed... worst money I ever spent. In my case, it didn't matter if I was only going to make one saddle or a thousand, I knew what quality stamping was and it wasn't coming from the tools I had. My first handmade tools came from Ellis Barnes, Barry King, and Jeremiah Watt... even among these tools I was able to see quality differences and numerous times sent back what I thought were mediocre tools, ie. basket stamps that didn't have clean rope impressions or geometric stamps that weren't square enough. Even though I was still making my first saddle and didn't know if i'd ever make a second one, I figured if I was willing to put in the time to basket stamp a whole saddle evenly and straight, then the tools I was using had better be leaving a damn nice impression.

When I started floral carving, tool quality became even more evident and I quickly noticed the differences between poorly designed bevellers that left tracks no matter how you used them, and shaders that didn't have the right shape to achieve the results I wanted, or as Jim mentioned, bargrounders that weren't perfect. It was the same deal, I didn't care the price of the tool ( not because I had unlimited funds... I could barely afford the Tandy tools), or how many times I planned to use them, if I couldn't achieve the results I expected, they were junk, at any cost!

The point to my above rambling is that I have noticed over the years that you can show some people a cantle binding that was sewn perfectly at 7 stitches per inch and you can show them a crooked binding sewn poorly at 4 stitches per inch and they just don't see or care about the difference; The same applies to leather carving, some people don't see or care about the fine details while they are stamping and when the piece is finished, they don't see the whole of their work as looking any different than the next person's work. Stamping tools aren't like a power drill or a hammer where a cheap or expensive version will provide the same final results. Properly desinged tools will achieve better results. In the end, it may have to do as much with the kind of person you are as with the kind of tools you can afford. When I started tooling at thirty years of age, I had a much more refined eye for quality, and determined mind to achieve those kinds of results than most boy scouts or 4H club members.

I've attached a hi-res photo of a rear-jockey frog to give you an idea of what some people expect from their tools. I recently sent this set of bargrounder back to the maker because some of the berries are slightly smaller than others and one of the grounders doesn't leave as deep an impression as others. Some people may not care about this small difference, but I do and you couldn't sell me a set of grounders in the condition these ones were for any price, I'd always pay more for the ones that performed the way I want and that goes for all my tools.

Darcy

Edited January 10, 2010 by D.A. Kabatoff

[JoeNots]

ok so i didn't read everones post on here so maybe i'm repeating something.

in my short time tooling (1.5 years) i've only had to really hit a few stamps hard, bevelers, basket weaves, & pear shaders. i only hit them harder if the first tap-tap doesn't look deep enough. i have almost all newer craft tools & i use their basic rawhide mallet, i'm a carpenter so i'm not bad with a hammer. i have had the fancy shiny coating come off of a few stamps & thats a problem cuase i don't see it till i stamp it in.

i think maybe some people need to just use a lighter mallet. i think we all like hand made things & i know that a nice hand made stamp was made with more care. but hand made things cost more. it also bugs me that craft tools aren't made in the US.

overall i wish i could afford the nice hand made tools but i don't know how people are breaking stamps.

[TimDreamer]

I have read everyone's posts here and can sympathize with both sides of the issue. I am not a professional leatherworker.... yet. I would love to be in the company of some of ya'll and produce award winning leather. However, I am realistic enough to know that I cannot afford custom tools at this point in time. Shucks, I was lucky enough to be able to snag a whole bunch of Craftools at $3.33 during their sale last month and felt darned lucky to do so. (One tool short of Bob Linnell's Sunflower pattern to be able to make my wife's Bible cover.) I've never bent a tool yet, but I haven't tooled in quite a while so I don't know if the newer tools will hold up.

Will I go out and buy custom tools? Yes, if and when I can afford them. I've drooled over the new swivel knifes I've seen and would love to try one, someday. I appreciate everyone's opinion, because I know ya'll are compassionate about your work and that you want to give the customer the best product that you can. However, I am not at that point and will try to do the best with what I have.

Please keep inspiring me, I've got a long way to go...... LoL.