How to I get my heel knot to cover the entire area?

[seveneves]

Does anyone else have this problem? I have Bruce grants enclycopedia of rawhide and leather braiding. I braided the heel knot and even made the extended version of the knot so that it's over three under three but there's still space between the laces. Also the bottom kind of creeps up leaving the lower half of the foundation exposed. What do I do?

Edited January 13, 2010 by seveneves

[CLH]

Need wider lace,or go o4/u4 or more bytes on your foundation knot. On your foundation knot, don'nt tighten it so tight and it'll stay down. hope this helps. Clint Haverty

[entiendo]

Over 3 and under 3...not sure what that means so I hope I'm not telling you something you already know, but isn't a heal knot a bosel knot, or are there other uses for the knot? "Not" sure...But I was under the impression heel knots aren't typically extended to make them longer???

Anyways, It may be time to learn to do more interweaves. I personally would not make the string wider, well unless you are using 1/16". The smaller the better...well when it comes to braiding anyhow.

Edited January 13, 2010 by entiendo

[Bevan]

Does anyone else have this problem? I have Bruce grants enclycopedia of rawhide and leather braiding. I braided the heel knot and even made the extended version of the knot so that it's over three under three but there's still space between the laces. Also the bottom kind of creeps up leaving the lower half of the foundation exposed. What do I do?

Mate i just spent shitloads of time working out a knot ,,, yes it was a heel knot on a bosal ,, 8 bight interweave , what size is ya knot? , what size are ya strings? and how many bights ????

Cheers for down under

Bevan

[Bevan]

Does anyone else have this problem? I have Bruce grants enclycopedia of rawhide and leather braiding. I braided the heel knot and even made the extended version of the knot so that it's over three under three but there's still space between the laces. Also the bottom kind of creeps up leaving the lower half of the foundation exposed. What do I do?

Yoy could always'; use a diffrent colour and do" another interweave , dependeng on your knot size and string size , its all about size ya know mate , lol , Cheers big ears

Bevo

[Bevan]

but isn't a heal knot a bosel knot, or are there ther uses

The heel is the possie on the bottom end of the bosal ,,, the knot that i put on the heel is an 8 bight turkshead , a popular 1 is a six bight turks head , so i suppose the heel is not the knot but the turks head is , and yes ,,, size does matter , lol , when it comes to bosals

oops sorry ,,

some one else can have a go now

Edited January 13, 2010 by Bevan

[entiendo]

I don't think it would be good to increase the size of the turks head if it's a bosel heal knot. Only because it's wider at the top than it is at the bottom so the braider is going to have a rough time doing the herringbone interweave at the lower end. Better to add more interweaves so the knot is consistent.

[rgerbitz]

Nowing how to make a turks head can get a guy a long ways in braiding. Nowing how to do a lot of diffferent interweaves does a lot to make your projects better. For instance on the first interweave you can have the turn back on the outside of the knot, sort of forming another set of bights. This is handy for closing the ends in a little tighter without expanding the foundation. Putting an inter weave only in the middle or to the top or bottom of a knot will close in gaps on something like a heel knot where the shape is irregular. Experimenting will help you get more intimate with what will and won't work.

Rob

[HorsehairBraider]

Seveneves, what rgerbitz is talking about is covered in the book "Braiding Rawhide Horse Tack" by Robert L. Woolery. I think he explains it pretty well but best are his pictures which (for me anyway) say a whole lot.

I'm not good at saying things but I'll take a try.

I think you can make the knot you are currently using work. Are you tying the knot with the bosal held nose button down, or are you tying with the nose button pointing up? I would suggest to tie the first way, with the nose button pointing down as I think it's a LOT easier. Take off your knot and start over, this time keeping your foundation turk's head or casa knot a lot looser, paying attention to keeping it tight at the "bottom" where it meets the arms of the bosal. Then start your interweave and be prepared to just keep going. If O3U3 does not cut it, keep going... even if you have to get up to O17U17, keep increasing. If you are careful to keep the "bottom" (it will turn into the top when the bosal is right side up) correct, pulling the passes down where they belong, you should not have a problem getting this knot to cover your foundation.

Sometimes though you do just have to use a different casa knot. With practice you get so you can tell from looking at how the foundation knot lays, once you tie it. You can see the foundation you just tied simply won't work. And with even more practice, you can call it before you tie anything at all.

[lilpep]

Does anyone else have this problem? I have Bruce grants enclycopedia of rawhide and leather braiding. I braided the heel knot and even made the extended version of the knot so that it's over three under three but there's still space between the laces. Also the bottom kind of creeps up leaving the lower half of the foundation exposed. What do I do?

<BR><BR>hello seven i read your post and thought i would ad my 2 cents from what you describe it seem sto me that your foundation or base knot is not the problem but it would have helped if it was a bit larger than what you started out with. if you followed Grants book you made a 7x6 and added two interweaves. you have two options in my opinion. the first would be to add more interweaves and take it to 04u4 or even 05u5 this can be done by following the same technique or pattern for the third interweave. the second option is by adding a second interweave of the same size as the base knot. this sounds strange i know but it is very possible. in woolery's book he talks about interweaves and it would be the one that sits on the inside and sticks out on the outside on the other end of the knot. i particularly dont like the way he explains but thats my opinion. by adding a second interweave of the same size as your base knot you are making a different knot but in the same pinneaple family. the thing here is that you already have two 5x6 interweaves and this would make it a little confusing. i would suggest losening your pervious interweaves and your base knot so you can accomodate a fourth or fifth pass to your knot. it would be good for you to invest about 26dlrs and buy the Tom Hall book " introduction to turks heads" this is a jewel of a book and personally i recommend it over any other book to learn about turks heads. it would help you understand the different types of interweaves and the pinneaple classes their is. for eexample the heel knot in grants book is a type 1 pinneaple of three passes (if you add another interweave it would be a four pass) if you were to add the "outside interweave" like in woolery's book it would be a type 2 of four passes. this might sound complicated but its "knot" so much. other than adding the extra interweaves you would have to take apart your heel knot and increase the 7x6 base knot into a 9x8 to ad two more parts and make it longer so the bottom gets covered up well, i think that the with of the ground work for the heel knot would still require 4 or 5 passes to cover every thing up nicely. by increasing the bits the six point star like apearrance of the ends of your heel knot would look like a 8 point star and by adding parts to the knot it would help cover the length of the heel. increasing the knot would also help it close more on the ends and that way you would not have a big opening at the bottom. if you increase the base knot to 11parts x 10 bits you might get to crowded at the ends depending on the with of your strands so i wouldnt recommend it. either way just to try and salvage it you can put more passes/interweaves into your heal knot but lossening and adding one more will create a few more problems like distortion and if you are working with rawhide you would have to retemper the whole knot to get it to work loose. in short i guess you have one more option which would be starting over with a 9x8 and adding more than 2 interweaves (making it a four or five pass). hope this helps to clear it up some. send me an email and i can get you hooked up with what you need on the T Hall book, its a freebe.  jorge.a.rodriguezespino@us.army.mil. take care Edited January 16, 2010 by lilpep

[seveneves]

thanks everyone for your help. I will try these suggestions out.

[seveneves]

<BR><BR>hello seven i read your post and thought i would ad my 2 cents from what you describe it seem sto me that your foundation or base knot is not the problem but it would have helped if it was a bit larger than what you started out with. if you followed Grants book you made a 7x6 and added two interweaves. you have two options in my opinion. the first would be to add more interweaves and take it to 04u4 or even 05u5 this can be done by following the same technique or pattern for the third interweave. the second option is by adding a second interweave of the same size as the base knot. this sounds strange i know but it is very possible. in woolery's book he talks about interweaves and it would be the one that sits on the inside and sticks out on the outside on the other end of the knot. i particularly dont like the way he explains but thats my opinion. by adding a second interweave of the same size as your base knot you are making a different knot but in the same pinneaple family. the thing here is that you already have two 5x6 interweaves and this would make it a little confusing. i would suggest losening your pervious interweaves and your base knot so you can accomodate a fourth or fifth pass to your knot. it would be good for you to invest about 26dlrs and buy the Tom Hall book " introduction to turks heads" this is a jewel of a book and personally i recommend it over any other book to learn about turks heads. it would help you understand the different types of interweaves and the pinneaple classes their is. for eexample the heel knot in grants book is a type 1 pinneaple of three passes (if you add another interweave it would be a four pass) if you were to add the "outside interweave" like in woolery's book it would be a type 2 of four passes. this might sound complicated but its "knot" so much. other than adding the extra interweaves you would have to take apart your heel knot and increase the 7x6 base knot into a 9x8 to ad two more parts and make it longer so the bottom gets covered up well, i think that the with of the ground work for the heel knot would still require 4 or 5 passes to cover every thing up nicely. by increasing the bits the six point star like apearrance of the ends of your heel knot would look like a 8 point star and by adding parts to the knot it would help cover the length of the heel. increasing the knot would also help it close more on the ends and that way you would not have a big opening at the bottom. if you increase the base knot to 11parts x 10 bits you might get to crowded at the ends depending on the with of your strands so i wouldnt recommend it. either way just to try and salvage it you can put more passes/interweaves into your heal knot but lossening and adding one more will create a few more problems like distortion and if you are working with rawhide you would have to retemper the whole knot to get it to work loose. in short i guess you have one more option which would be starting over with a 9x8 and adding more than 2 interweaves (making it a four or five pass). hope this helps to clear it up some. send me an email and i can get you hooked up with what you need on the T Hall book, its a freebe.  jorge.a.rodriguezespino@us.army.mil. take care

I guess one of my problems is I don't know all the nomenclature of braiding. Like what is a bight, i can guess what an interweave is. I have Woolery's book somewhere but it seems hard to understand. I guess I'm more of a visual learner where he kind of gets into the method and so forth. Thanks.

[skyout]

I guess one of my problems is I don't know all the nomenclature of braiding. Like what is a bight, i can guess what an interweave is. I have Woolery's book somewhere but it seems hard to understand. I guess I'm more of a visual learner where he kind of gets into the method and so forth. Thanks.

Hi seveneves,

I like pictures, too. It's the next best thing to having someone show you in person.

Dan Alaska has posted some excellent tutorials on the PKs at his Pineapple Knot Forum site.

I tied almost everyone of them and can say they are GREAT!!! He starts off with a basic PK and before you know it you're tying a ~ ...type 3 - 4 pass (from a 7x6 turk's head). By following Dan's rules, I was able to tie a 32 part x 36 bight, 6 pass, Type 1 Pineapple knot. Whoo Hoo! Thanks Dan for your great tuts!

This link below will take you to the tutorials. Check them out; they've got plenty of pics that lead you step by step thru tying different PKs!!!

http://pineapple.myf.../index.php?c=20">My link

Tom Hall's Intro to Turk's Heads has been mentioned in a post above but I believe it can be mentioned again as it is a tremendous help in learning the PK. You can get a copy of Intro to TH by Hall from Marty Combs' site at:

http://www.angelfire...orld/index.html">My link

Hall uses diagrams to help explain the PKs. To give you an idea here is the diagram I made for the latest PK I tied (mentioned above). Sorry, it's rope, not leather.

I had run out of orange line and used pink that I replaced later when I got more orange. Here's the breakdown of the casa passes by color.

And the graph lined to the PK:

I would also recommend the following to anyone learning or wanting to learn how to tie a PK.

Sidney Wood has an abundance of great info on the interweaving of casa knots and a whole lesson on the Pineapple Interweave.

http://www.taylortel...nterweaves.html">My link

His lessons on paralleling of a part of the primary knot and especially recognizing the parallel pairs and splitting them properly were invaluable.

http://www.taylortel...newiwintro.html">My link

I guess we all learn at our own pace, but recognizing/seeing the pairs was really hard for me until Sidney's excellent lesson finally sunk in. Now I can see the pairs while tying. WhooHoo! Thanks Sidney!

I made a tutorial/grid that Brian, aka Knothead, posted at KHWW in the tutorial section.

Johanna told me she'll be posting it in the tutorial section here soon.

It is for the 16 part x 16 bright 2 pass Type 1 Pineapple Knot.

This one is from a base 9px8b Turks Head with a 7px8b Turk's Head

interweave, which gives 3 zigzags in the finished knot.

I hope everyone enjoys it. Just click the link below.

http://khww.net/arti...?article_id=145">My link

Hope this helps.

Rick

skyout

[KnotHead]

Does anyone else have this problem? I have Bruce grants enclycopedia of rawhide and leather braiding. I braided the heel knot and even made the extended version of the knot so that it's over three under three but there's still space between the laces. Also the bottom kind of creeps up leaving the lower half of the foundation exposed. What do I do?

Hi seveneves,

All of what I am about to suggest is dependent upon the size of your core at the end of your project. Also, you can use this advise as you will, or not at all.

1. I believe your base casa knot is correct. Like I said above this part is dependent on the size of the core.
2. My suggestion is that you should keep the 3 pass heel in place. The over 3 - under 3.
3. Loosen the over 3 - under 3 heel to make room for a couple more center passes in the middle of the heel where all the gaps are. What you're going to do here is make the passes for the heel knot in the center of the casa knot. This will fill up the gaps you are seeing in your heel knot. Maybe make 3 more passes to fill in the gaps. Again, that part being dependent on the size of your core in your project. Basically, from this point all you have to do is eye ball it to see if you need to continue to fill the center in with more passes.

With heel knots, it is not unheard of to go all the way out to 5 passes or more. That may be what is required. Simply put your are trying to cover an object that is not a normal geometrical shape. The shape you are covering odd and weird. So, it will require more work.

Brian...

[seveneves]

Ok thanks everyone for helping me with this knot. I learned how to tie the 6b X=1 turks head shown in woolerys book. However I've been trying to figure out how to lengthen the knot. He gives the formula and called it 6b X=2. I guess you just wrap the string twice around the mandrel. I can't figure out the foundation knot because he doesn't really give enough detail. This is what he says:

1. A. Make a clockwise pass (bight same side as start)

b. over the first pass two times (x=2)

2. a. 01...... +01

b.u1o1......u1o1

3.a. u1, 01.....u1,01

b.o1,u1,o1....+o1,u1,o1

4.a. o1, u1, o1....+o1,u1,01

b.u1, o1,u1,o1..u1,01,u1,o1

5. a. u1,o1,u1,o1.....u1,o1,u1,o1

b. o1,u1,o1,u1,o1..+o1,u1,o1,u1,o1

6.a. o1,u1,o1,u1,o1 ...+o1,u1,o1,u1,o1

b.u1,o1,u1,o1,u1,o1...u1,o1,u1,o1,u1,o1

Can some make me a little tutorial about how to do this or point me a the right direction on the knot....by the way thanks everyoen fore all the help so far. I think I'm making a break through.

[skyout]

Hi seven,

If you are just wanting to tie a Turks Head and not the Pineapple Knot, try Tim's great tool that Brian posted for us here:

http://khww.net/gridmaker/

You just need to know how many brights and parts there are. I think Brian even has a quick tutorial on using the Gridmaker at KHWW.net.

I think Sidney Wood has some charts that show how the THs are enlarged that might help with determining how many parts you're trying to aquire by going aground twice. His web page is listed in my previous post. Sorry, I can't help by looking at you O/U run list as I'm learning, too. lol

Rick

skyout

[skyout]

Well, playing around with the Gridmaker shows the 13 part X 6 bight is the first size 6 bight that has the first half cycle wrap completely around the mandrel. The 17p X6b, the 19p X 6b and the 23p X 6b will also go completely around the mandrel on the first half cycle run going up. You can see this easily by clicking on the right button on the "half cycle" box that is just underneath the "generate" button. Click that "half cycle" button on the right again to see the second half cycle run down and you see the O1, O1 (or from top pin 1 O2 to bottom pin 2). The Gridmaker will not generate a TH unless the common divisor rule (parts and bights must have a gcd of 1) is followed.

Here is the 1st half cycle of the 13p x 6b TH.

Here is the completed grid for the 13p X 6b TH. If you need help with resizing for a specific mandrel, cardboard or more permanent PVC tube, let me know. I use cardboard empty toilet paper tubes or cereal box cut to size, put wadded up newspaper inside and use stick pins at the bights. PVC with holes drilled at the bights with carved lines instead of the paper grid should last forever.

Here is a thread that Scott, aka SS369, explains how to resize and not get the background checkerboard in it. See post# 6.

http://www.khww.net/...p?thread_id=454

The dark gray lines go over.

from bottom pin 1 to top pin 1

from top pin 1 O2 to bottom pin 2

from bottom pin 2 O2 to top pin 2

from top pin 2 U1 O1 U1 O1 to bottom pin 3

from bottom pin 3 U1 O1 U1 O1 to top pin 3

from top pin 3 O1 U1 O2 U1 O1 to bottom pin 4

from bottom pin 4 O1 U1 O2 U1 O1 to top pin 4

from top pin 4 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 to bottom pin 5

from bottom pin 5 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 to top pin 5

from top pin 5 O1 U1 O1 U1 O2 U1 O1 U1 O1 to bottom pin 6

from bottom pin 6 O1 U1 O1 U1 O2 U1 O1 U1 O1 to top pin 6

from top pin 6 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 to bottom pin 1

Let me know if this helps or if you need the 17p X6b, the 19p X 6b or the 23p X 6b THs.

Rick

skyout

Edited March 16, 2010 by skyout

[seveneves]

I finally did it. Thanks you guys. With your help I figured it out. I'll take some pictures and post them soon. Thanks everyone.

[skyout]

I finally did it. Thanks you guys. With your help I figured it out. I'll take some pictures and post them soon. Thanks everyone.

Really cool seveneves. Looking forward to the pics!

So how many parts did you use on the base TH?

[seveneves]

Well I think maybe I was a little premature in saying I did it. I did tie the foundation with one interweave. Now I'm having trouble doing more interweaves. I just need to practice.

[skyout]

Don't give up was the best advise from Brian I got when learning. If you can post some pics we may be able to help.

There are just a few "rules" to follow and you will get there. If needed, just review them at Dan Alaska's site here:

http://pineapple.myfunforum.org/index.php?c=20&sid=bc20b0dac63765dae586fefb002e1a0f

For inspiration, check this BLUE WHALE of a pineapple knot out. LOL

http://www.khww.net/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=692&rowstart=0