Dye Rubbing Off

[RobDude30]

Hello All,

I'm another newbie trying to learn to work with leather and would appreciate some help. This particular project is a heavy weight belt. I cut and stitched the belt, used denatured alcohol to deglaze, then dyed the belt with Eco-Flo light mahogany dye. I rubbed the belt with a soft cloth shortly after applying the dye, then allowed it to dry for about 16 hours or so. I came back and buffed with a cloth until barely any color was on the cloth. I then applied a light coat of neatsfoot oil and allowed to dry overnight again. I then buffed again with very little color coming off on the cloth.

I then began to apply some TanKote with a dauber. When applying the TanKote, the dauber gets completely the color of the dye and I can actually see the dye coming to the surface.

Any ideas as to what I am doing wrong?

Thanks!

Rob

[Luke Hatley]

HATE TO SAY THIS...BUT FOR THAT TYPE OF EQUIPTMENT YOU SHOULD HAVE USED FIEBINGS DYE...

THEN FINISH WITH SUPER SHEEN OR RESOLINE.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Luke Hatley

[King's X]

Eco-Flo for me has been a learning experience, but her is what I do/learned with this product. It is not fully tested and continue to learn, but I have yet to have any dye come off like others have reported here.

Carve/background ~ Allow to dry

After allowing it to dry, I will determine the dye color. If I am doing a belt, I will do the following.

In preparing the leather to dye, I will lightly wet the leather and dye it with Eco-Flo Dye and allow to dry over night. The next day or two if I have to corral the children, I will use an Eco-Flo antique as a final coat to fill up any empty or partially filled cells that were not covered in the initial dying process. I will allow it to dry another day or two. After buffing, I will use either Satin Sheen or RTC as a sealer and buff. Now, if the belt appears to be a little stiff, I will turn it over and rub in some neatsfoot oil and allow it to soak in and dry overnight. The next day, you should be able to feel the flexiability in the belt as you manipulate it. You can also rub down the grain down, if you are not going to line the belt.

Any other leather project or the use of another dye product, I will interject the following after carving the leather.

**If Tandy leather is used, I will use Neatfoot oil as my next step; it provides a slightly darker shade after application/drying.

**With my current leather (Hermann Oak), I will use EVOO (extra virgin olive oil); no significant change in color.

I hope I didn't confuse you.

[abn]

Rob, the advice that King's X provides is right on the money. I've used Eco-Flo products since their introduction in mid-2007, and really like them. I find the colors to be truer than the Fiebing's stuff, with none of the traditional worries of streaking or rub-off.

To condition and finish something dyed with Eco-Flo, use neatsfoot oil and Super Shene or Satin Shene. Other products, like TanKote and Lexol, will lift the color right off the leather. When using new combinations, I always test on scrap to make sure they work well together. Good luck!

[RobDude30]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I don't want to give up on the Eco-Flo just yet because I have a few bottles of the stuff!

The part that is so aggravating for me is that the TanKote seems to just dissolve the dye or something and it rubs off so easy. Water does the same thing. I have some leather that I dyed more than 10 days ago and it does the same exact thing. It's like it never dries, although it will not rub off until wet.

I'll give the Super-Shene or Satin-Shene a try and see how that goes. If I don't have better luck, I may have to give the Fiebing's a try.

Anyone else having this problem?

[RobDude30]

I did some more playing around last night and may have found what is going on. The leather I have been using is a piece of Tandy leather from the after Christmas sale. Got it cheap so it is probably very low quality. With that being said, I took a scrap and deglazed it until it was a totally different color (much lighter). I had to rub pretty hard and used a lot of denatured alcohol -- pretty much soaked the leather through. I then let the scrap dry overnight and applied some dye this morning. The dye on the piece came out MUCH lighter than the other pieces I have attempted, and seems to have soaked in quickly. I rubbed the dye in until I liked the color and then immediately buffed lightly with a clean cloth. I got nearly no rub-off so I'm guessing that this one may work out right. I'll buff it again tonight and see what happens.

What is the proper deglazing method? Should I be looking for a color change, or maybe an even appearance in color of the leather? Is it correct for the leather to be very wet with denatured alcohol after deglazing?

Thanks for all of your help. This forum is great!

[King's X]

I used the deglazer that is sold at Tandy one time when I had the same problem with Tandy leather; the manager gave me a bottle of the stuff. It didn't work, I returned the bottle and told him thanks for the help. I threw away the project and started again.

Now, I changed to Hermann Oak leather and things are just GREAT!

I was never originally thought to use any deglazing process so I cannot speak about it. What I wrote earlier in your post is what I do as a regular process. Sorry

Just a tip: After casing and carving, you naturally remove some of the oils/tannage processes from the skin; you have to consider about put that back in before you dye or finish. a slight comparison would be when your hands dry out; most usually put on lotion. Same thing, except the skin your tooling is kinda dead!

Again, experiment. do your deglazing, carve/tool and then oil before you dye? See what you got coming out. Before to know after trying it then have an 'O-s i t" moment after doing it to an actual project.

Remember we are all learning.......so.....don't forget to share your results.

Good luck!

[RobDude30]

I used the deglazer that is sold at Tandy one time when I had the same problem with Tandy leather; the manager gave me a bottle of the stuff. It didn't work, I returned the bottle and told him thanks for the help. I threw away the project and started again.

Now, I changed to Hermann Oak leather and things are just GREAT!

I was never originally thought to use any deglazing process so I cannot speak about it. What I wrote earlier in your post is what I do as a regular process. Sorry

Just a tip: After casing and carving, you naturally remove some of the oils/tannage processes from the skin; you have to consider about put that back in before you dye or finish. a slight comparison would be when your hands dry out; most usually put on lotion. Same thing, except the skin your tooling is kinda dead!

Again, experiment. do your deglazing, carve/tool and then oil before you dye? See what you got coming out. Before to know after trying it then have an 'O-s i t" moment after doing it to an actual project.

Remember we are all learning.......so.....don't forget to share your results.

Good luck!

Thanks for the help King's X. Very good advice!

Do you think I should oil before I dye or after? Most of what I have read says to oil after dye. I'll give them both a try and see what happens.

I can definitely agree about experimenting first on some scrap. I ruined a very nice belt that I had spent quite a bit of time on just trying to get the finish right. I'm about to start on another one but plan to get my technique right before I apply any more dye.

[King's X]

I have never heard about oiling after dyeing. The way I learned from books and what I learned from here, has always said to oil before. unless you doing that Belt technique, which I learned from Dick Sherer.

[RunningRoan]

I've been playing around with Eco-Flo dyes and antiques too. I have found that oiling before I dye gets more even results. I case/carve, then let the project sit until the top layer is dry, but there is still some moisture in the core of the leather. Then I put on a coat of oil. I have been using mostly neatsfoot oil, but have done a few projects with EVOO and liked the results. The neatsfoot tends to darken a little, but the EVOO doesn't so much. Once the oil has soaked in (the moisture in the core helps suck in the oil) and the top layer is clean, I apply the dye as quickly and evenly as possible (still working on my technique).

I'm still at odds with the finish, especially for the Eco-Flo antiques. I was using Leather Sheen, but that was a disaster with the water-based Eco-Flo. I went to acrylic Resolene and had a bit of a color-removal problem on the Eco-Flo antique. It was pulling/dissolving the antique off of the non-impression areas of my projects. I found that if I work in smaller sections when applying the antique and rub it off completely, I get better results with the Resolene. I was kinda sorta satisfied. I was at the WESA trade show in Denver last weekend and visited the Weaver Supply booth...was chatting with the fellas there and told them my woes...they had nothing but good things to say about RTC. Said it's the best and most durable weather proof finish they've found. That's what they use exclusively in their shop on all their finished goods. They gave me a little bottle to try. I'm excited...gonna start getting a piece of scrap ready tonight to see what the RTC does.

I have not tried Fiebings products, but I'm planning to get some on my next supply run. Just curious to try them out. I like the color selection of the Eco-Flo stuff, but if I can't get it right, I need to go to something else.

[David]

I tried Eco Flo dyes ONCE. I threw the bottle in the trash. The dye is far to fragile for use on any item that gets even moderate handling or wear. I honestly can't think of an item that I would consider using it on.

I'll stick with that nasty old Fiebings alcohol based dye. It is tough and reliable.

That's my 2 cents on Eco Flo.....which is about all it's worth.

Dave Theobald

Edited January 22, 2010 by David

[RobDude30]

I tried Eco Flo dyes ONCE. I threw the bottle in the trash. The dye is far to fragile for use on any item that gets even moderate handling or wear. I honestly can't think of an item that I would consider using it on.

I'll stick with that nasty old Fiebings alcohol based dye. It is tough and reliable.

That's my 2 cents on Eco Flo.....which is about all it's worth.

Dave Theobald

I'm beginning to agree, Dave. As a matter of fact, I returned some EcoFlo dye and some TanKote to Tandy today and bought some Fiebings alcohol dye and Resolene. Planning on giving them a try over the weekend. I also bought some better quality leather and am already amazed at the difference that makes.

[King's X]

Do according to the advice you get here, on the streets, your own testing/demos and projects.

Isn't this place awesome.

Good luck.

[RobDude30]

Do according to the advice you get here, on the streets, your own testing/demos and projects.

Isn't this place awesome.

Good luck.

This place is awesome!

I think I am finally making progress in the right direction. I made another double-thickness belt, deglazed it, oiled it, then applied the Fiebing's alcohol based dye. I plan to let the belt dry overnight, but have already buffed out the keeper and applied a couple of coats of resolene. I applied the resolene with a cloth and had only a very, very, very light ruboff on the first coat.

I can see why a lot of folks on here use an airbrush. The airbrush would likely keep from having a problem even with the water-based dyes.

Thanks for all the advice!

[Daggrim]

What is RTC?

I was at the WESA trade show in Denver last weekend and visited the Weaver Supply booth...was chatting with the fellas there and told them my woes...they had nothing but good things to say about RTC. Said it's the best and most durable weather proof finish they've found. That's what they use exclusively in their shop on all their finished goods. They gave me a little bottle to try. I'm excited...gonna start getting a piece of scrap ready tonight to see what the RTC does.

[King's X]

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[TTcustom]

Wow, thanks King and everyone for this discussion. I have had mixed results with the eco-flo highlighter and that was due to my inexperience with it. I think that I will have to give it another go on my next project following your technique King.

What a great place to lurk about and learn what I have been missing.

[JoeNots]

What do you think is the best black dye on the market? I love in California & can't get my hands on Fiebing's Pro Oil Dyes. I'm looking for it to penetrate, not just be a surface dye. I've read all the posts in this thread & i'm still a little confused. I'm currently using Fiebing's dye (black). It rubs off every time. I've tried other bottles of it so it wasn't just a bad batch. I'm using it mainly on belts. Thanks for the help!

[RobDude30]

What do you think is the best black dye on the market? I love in California & can't get my hands on Fiebing's Pro Oil Dyes. I'm looking for it to penetrate, not just be a surface dye. I've read all the posts in this thread & i'm still a little confused. I'm currently using Fiebing's dye (black). It rubs off every time. I've tried other bottles of it so it wasn't just a bad batch. I'm using it mainly on belts. Thanks for the help!

I gave up on the water based dyes, however, I think if you try sealing with one of the acrylic based products you may get better results. You can try Resolene. Take a sponge, wet it, and wring it out. Apply a very small amount of Resolene to the sponge and wipe very lightly in one direction on your belt. If you can see a milky appearance, you are applying it too heavily (make another very light pass with the sponge to even it out). Allow that to dry and apply another very light coat. I apply 3 or 4 coats in this manner and have ended up with a very nice finish. After the first or maybe the second coat, you should not see any more dye rubbing off.The key here is patience. Use very light coats of Resolene, very light pressure, and let it dry well. Some folks dilute the Resolene, but I use it full strength. Also, a lot of folks on here airbrush their finishes which I understand works very well. I just don't have the room for that kind of setup.

I hope this helps.

[whinewine]

What do you think is the best black dye on the market? I love in California & can't get my hands on Fiebing's Pro Oil Dyes. I'm looking for it to penetrate, not just be a surface dye. I've read all the posts in this thread & i'm still a little confused. I'm currently using Fiebing's dye (black). It rubs off every time. I've tried other bottles of it so it wasn't just a bad batch. I'm using it mainly on belts. Thanks for the help!

Joe, if you do a search through the posts, you will find many, many references to the black spirit dyes crocking (rubbing off). Black is notorious for this, and it doesn't matter the maker of that spirit dye, be it under the Tandy label (when they carried spirit dyes), the Fiebings label or the old Omega dyes. (I have never used Fiebings oil dyes, so I can't comment about that product.)

But a short version of the multitude of posts is: black CROCKS. You've got to rub & rub & rub with a cloth to remove as much as possible before sealing. Most people would lay down a coat of dark blue or green or brown to prepare the surface, let dry, then apply black, let dry, then buff, buff, buff, buff, buff & buff till no more comes off on a cloth. Then seal.

I have used eco flo black and I do like it, because it doesn't need a pre-coating of another dark dye before application, and it doesn't crock to any great extent. While it doesn't crock like the spirit black, the color is not quite as rich as a spirit black, but relatively close. What I don't like about it is that is is water-based, which means that, unless well sealed (on ALL sides) it will bleed under moist conditions (rain, perspiration, etc).

Then there's always vinegaroon.

russ

[bustedlifter]

Fiebing's Oil Dye and some Fiebing's Snow Proof over that. I slather Snow Proof over my seats and other items and put them in the sun and let it "melt" into the leather, works great! I put it under the kitchen faucet and the water runs off it.For color I use BIC fine line permanent markers.

[unicornwoman]

Just a tip: After casing and carving, you naturally remove some of the oils/tannage processes from the skin; you have to consider about put that back in before you dye or finish. a slight comparison would be when your hands dry out; most usually put on lotion. Same thing, except the skin your tooling is kinda dead!

Here in the Lone Star Leather Crafters Guild area, we are told to put a bit of Lexol into the water you use to case and carve with. That way the leather doesn't dry out quite so bad or fast. It also makes carving a bit better.