Retracting A Recommendation

[wildrose]

I have in the past recommended aon-celtic.com as a site with really beautiful work, including a freeware section. After receiving a scathing note from the artist's "watchdog", I have come to realize that FREEWARE isn't. I had used some of the designs on pieces that were gifts, and one or two that I sold. Since pictures of said work was on my site, the watchdog sent me a note about copyright infringement.

I am retracting my recommendation of the site. If you continue to use it, beware.

I have had my webmaster remove all pictures of their work, and I have deleted it from my patterns folder.

It seems to me a person should call something "only with our permission and you paying us" instead of free. But I guess I'm dumb that way.

[Jordan]

I would scathe right back at them! If they advertise free then whatever it is should be free. Some people just don't get it, but if it is any consolation I am impressed with your designs and work. Jordan

[wildrose]

Thanks Jordan! I guess I was naive over their use of the word "free". I've since learned my lesson. I asked my husband for the latest edition/package of the Celtic Knot Font, which I always loved but haven't used since we got a new computer (which only takes cd-roms). I also have a collection of Dover books and others, so it's not like I'm crying over losing Aon as a source. It was more their attitude than anything else.

As it was, I had a sleepless night fussing over it - I know, I'm too sensitive for my own good.

[gtwister09]

Holly,

From dealing with freeware, shareware and open source for more than 20 years, I can assure you that it rarely means "free". Almost every time they will state in their EULA or website something to the effect that use of the product is only for personal or nonprofit use. I would imagine that if you looked around long enough on their site that you would find something to that effect. They generally require some payment for commercial use, maintenance or such...

Some leather patterns also carry warnings about commercial use with them as well.

You are better off to be safe than sorry.

Regards,

Ben

[wildrose]

Thanks Ben! The "better off safe than sorry" is pretty much why I deleted the pics without an argument. Just not worth it.

I'm posting it here simply because I don't want folks saying "oh, Holly sent me there".

[cem]

Holly you might want to check out this software http://www.hypatiaso...KnotsBag_A.html I think I've mentioned it here before buts it's recently been updated to version 2 and is alot easier to use. I payed the $20 so I could export to Illustator it can be a bit buggy but for for $20 I think it's worth it the developer is very helpful if you have any questions. I am in no way associated with them I just found it easier to use than the various fonts that are around for developing celtic themed artwork.

Cheers,

Clair

Edited February 12, 2010 by cem

[TroyS]

Holly,

This came straight from Wikipedia... Pay especially close attention to the two sentences in RED!

"Copyright is the set of exclusive rights granted to the author or creator of an original work, including the right to copy, distribute and adapt the work. Copyright lasts for a certain time period after which the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to a wide range of works that are substantive and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and trademarks.

There are different approaches to the issue of what is a "copy" of a copyright-protected work. For example, several important rights under United States copyright law exist only for "copies" of works—material objects in which the work is embodied. A three-dimensional counterpart of a two-dimensional drawing is usually not a "copy" of the drawing, under United States copyright law. Thus, the copyright in a drawing of the approach to the Triboro Bridge is not infringed when the bridge approach is built.

If you really want to smack her off her soap box, you can throw this in her selfish face!!

Hope it helps!!

Troy

Edited February 12, 2010 by TroyS

[wildrose]

Thank you Troy, you're great! My husband also felt I should've fought it and not just taken down the pics.

My mom has done oil painting, and will sometimes use a picture she's found in a magazine to put on canvas. Like my taking a freeware clip off Aon to use as a pattern to carve on leather. I don't really see this as copyright infringement. I am using the picture as a basis and expanding on it, with my own skills and colors.

Ah well, I appreciate all the comments and suggestions I've gotten on this topic.

[Yona]

I'm new, but I have traveled the world in the army, and I just looked at her site and the first thing I saw was a triangle with a celtic note that I have seen a lot of places and they were carving over a couple of hundred years old ....sooooooooo unless she is a vampire or immortal...she copied them. She might have copy writed (?) but that does not mean that she did not copy them from old drawings or carvings......people copywrite things all the time that no one else did.....I see it in the chopper builders world all the time. Tell her to prove it....look up old celtic carvings and drawings and use them....if she says they are hers, counter with plagerism....

Edited February 12, 2010 by Yona

[wildrose]

That is one reason I kept a copy of the double triquetra I think I found on her site: a triquetra is NOT a unique to this artist design. Even her Celtic crosses. Okay, maybe she puts a line or two of her own on there, but it's not as if a Celtic cross is original to her.

[Yona]

The one on the brass riser is a basic celtic knot

Hers...............is just this one with a circle in it.................And I just "designed" this , kinda like the one on her site... ; )

Edited February 12, 2010 by Yona

[Wildebeest]

Interesting thread. I had to check the site out, and I found this ...

http://www.aon-celti...ocopyright.html (Note that this information was on the "About Cari" page, NOT the freeware or home pages.)

All the images on the Aon Celtic website are copyright Cari Buziak, 1994-current. This includes all the images in the Gallery, Freeware section, Tutorial text and graphics, the website background, e-mail button and all other images posted here unless noted otherwise.

Usage without permission constitutes copyright infringement, and is punishable by law.

Many people think that because Celtic art is an old art form, that Celtic images might be copyright free. This is NOT true! Each image created by an artist is under copyright protection from the moment they create it, even if they had inspiration from a traditional source, such as the Book of Kells. New material and 'ancient inspired' material is all under copyright protection, whether it's been registered with the copyright office or not, and using it without the artists' permission is copyright infringement.

If you're not sure whether the usage you have in mind is okay or not, just ask! :-) It never hurts to just ask! We can always work something out where you could license the image or pay a royalty to use it. People who take the time to ask and work something out ensure the survival of the Aon Celtic website, so I can continue to share artwork and free clip art material with you. Thanks everyone!! :-)

Here's my take on it (disclaimer..... I am not a lawyer):

1. Her posting the artwork as freeware implies permission to use it (she does not specify either how it may be used, or prohibited uses).

2. She claims that an artist who creates an image, even if "ancient inspired" has copyright protection. By her logic, then, you would also have protection for your works you created, being "new ancient inspired".

Not being an artist, nor having any intellectual property (except what little resides between my ears), I've never had to deal with this issue. In the end, though, it's her site and her rules.

[Tina]

"She claims that an artist who creates an image, even if "ancient inspired" has copyright protection. By her logic, then, you would also have protection for your works you created, being "new ancient inspired".

This is true in some countries (mine included) Here I don't have to apply for my art, I have the soul copyright from the minute it's created by law. I know there is more countries like this, maybe Canada too where the above website owner lives?

I remeber reading something about copyright and ancient symbols some time ago...Someone lost a copyright battle due to that old symbols is too old to get a new copyright on and/or belongs to everyone??? I will have to try and find this one again to be real sure but it was something to that effect.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Tina

[CitizenKate]

Very interesting discussion. It boils down to, what is considered a copy or reproduction, versus what is considered inspired. Seems like there is too much room for a double standard. In other words, if I copy something, I can say it was inspired, but if you are inspired by something I drew, I can claim you have copied it. I suppose some discussion about the actual process of using one piece of art to create another might shed some light.

I thought what Troy mentioned was interesting. I had a recent exchange with a site that contains a very large collection of tattoo art. Their terms of service said the art on this site could be used either by individuals looking to get a tattoo, or by tattoo artists as reference material to create tattoos, and they encouraged paid subscribers (of which I was one) to grab all the art they wanted. At first, I assumed that if it was okay for tattoo artists to charge their customer a fee to reproduce the art in a tattoo, it must be okay for a leather artist to reproduce the art on a piece of leather and sell it.

After using some of the art on a couple of pieces I made, I decided I wasn't so sure I really had permission to use the art in the manner I was, so I emailed the site owner, told them what I wanted to do and asked them if it fell under the terms of acceptable use. They responded, no, you do not have our permission to use our art for leather work. I was surprised and disappointed, but since they own the copyright, I also assume they get to say what we can or cannot do with the art. So I have complied with their wishes, but reading this topic makes me wonder.

Of course, I won't do anything with the art for commercial purposes unless I am 100% sure it's legal to do so. We really can't rely on just what makes sense to us, because sometimes the laws just don't make sense. But it sure would be nice if we could get some clarity on these rules, so we don't have to keep guessing, even with art that we draw ourselves based on something else that inspired us.

Kate

[terrahyd]

ARTISTIC RENDITIONS;;

(Webster) To represent in art;; Is your work art or craft;;

[wildrose]

I really appreciate the discussion.

My husband bought me the new Celtic Knot Font package for Valentine's and I know that is useable and I'm a happy camper!

[AaronR]

The underlying concept of "Intellectual" + "Property" to me seems steeped in exploitative double-think seeing as how we're wired to adopt incorporeal impressions of culture, societal norms and tools (i.e. language) from the day we're born. A better term for the issue should be "Cognitive Custodianship & Recognition" as we are all inheritors of a global legacy that's been developing long before us and will continue after we've passed on.

As far as reproducing the Artist's original work - the exact artwork, downloadable files, text etc. offered on the website - I can see validation for respecting the artist's wishes regarding creative commons & licensed reproduction.

As far as reproducing the essence of an artist's work when that work stems entirely from the pre-existing commonwealth of human inheritance I see no grounds for justifying any claim to authorial copyright regarding the "intellectual" aspect of the work.

George Bain's book provides sufficient information for recreating and learning how to construct Celtic-style knotwork. Very user-friendly and legally legitimate.

[towerclimber]

Hi folks!

I'm new and quite rough around the edges when it comes to leather crafting.

I appreciate being able to come to this site and learn heaps about what I need to do and not to do. I want to thank all the folks who've put this information up. You're a Godsend for folks like me.

While I'm not a very good artist, If I will say that if I ever get good enough for someone to want to copy my work? have at it!!

If it's something original that you want use and I created? you don't even have to ask. If I ever get that good, I'd take it as a compliment...but that's just me. I don't put on artsy airs and I'm not looking to get rich.

73,

Elliott

[Jordan]

Just revisiting this and something just popped in my head that gave me a chuckle, as Joni Mitchell said on miles of isles "Nobody said to Rembrandt Paint a starry night again man!"

[Menolly]

Holly you might want to check out this software http://www.hypatiaso...KnotsBag_A.html I think I've mentioned it here before buts it's recently been updated to version 2 and is alot easier to use. I payed the $20 so I could export to Illustator it can be a bit buggy but for for $20 I think it's worth it the developer is very helpful if you have any questions. I am in no way associated with them I just found it easier to use than the various fonts that are around for developing celtic themed artwork.

Cheers,

Clair

Thanks, Clair! That is really cool! I think I'm gonna buy it.

Ellen

[cem]

Sorry Ellen, I just saw this your very welcome I'm still using it when I have some celtic themed stuff to do.

Cheers,

Clair

[vreedonsett]

i just read this and wanted to add something, as i was looking into copyright laws in my area... if you change 10% of a piece of art/idea what not it becomes a brand new piece of work, and does not fall under any copyright infringement..

[cem]

i just read this and wanted to add something, as i was looking into copyright laws in my area... if you change 10% of a piece of art/idea what not it becomes a brand new piece of work, and does not fall under any copyright infringement..

Sorry but this is a myth, derivative works are still bound by copyright and it is up to the original artist to determine whether they feel their copyright has been infringed or not there is no so called percentage when it comes to derivative works. The 10% comes from being able to copy books and articles for educational purposes and some artists interpereted it the wrong way thinking that they only had to change something 10%. When it comes to selling something using other peoples work it's best to talk to a lawyer that specialises in copyright or if you can't afford that go to your state or countries artist organization they often have free advice in the form of pamplets or online pdf's that deal with copyright.

Clair

[PANTHER]

Well for what it's worth, her site is no longer on the web and hasn't been for some time. Who knows..........

[Tina]

Well for what it's worth, her site is no longer on the web and hasn't been for some time. Who knows..........

??? Still there as of this morning on my puter http://www.aon-celtic.com/