Finding Model Guns

[K-Man]

There are differences between the 1911's, not just with barrel length, but with dust cover size and shape.

At some point, I keep hoping the light bulb will go off in people's head that it makes a difference whether or not you use the proper gun to fit the holster, at least if you're wanting to make a custom molded one. There are certain parameters that apply in every instance when it comes to making a holster for a gun - period. Can't state it any more plain than that.

Use of the proper gun/fit lends to long-term durability and use of the holster. Tolerance differences on the guns affect that.

Most customers can recognize early enough that there's a fit issue with their gun in the holster. And most will dispose of the holster before it leads to any serious safety issues. That's why you don't hear of holster maker's being sued because of it.

In short, it falls to the tolerance/acceptance of the individual holster maker and what level of the industry they want to work at, and what risks they're willing to take. I've read too many stories of holster makers trying to skimp by and use a gun that is different from what's needed. For example, I know a holster maker who was using a 6-shot revolver for fitting holsters for a 5-shot cylinder gun (makes a difference). Didn't take long for word about a sloppy fit of gun to holster to get out. A bunch of folks read that story, and the holster maker saw a dive in sales. In short, he had lost the confidence of both current and potential customers. There's other stories of guns sticking out the end of the holster because the holster maker used the wrong gun, and the list goes on and on.

In short, if you as the holster maker are satisfied with the reputation that such errant actions bring, then go for it.

gregintenn: I have liability insurance, always have. In my opinion, it's more prudent to do so then not.

Edited April 13, 2010 by K-Man

[gregintenn]

Thank you, K Man, for taking the time to share your insight.

Edited April 13, 2010 by gregintenn

[Denster]

Maybe I missed something in this thread, the part where someone suggested using a five shot revolver to mold holsters for a six shot revolver or leaving the barrel exposed at the end of the holster. That and such things as using a 1911 to make holsters for a Browning HP are not sound practices and no one suggested they were.

As to the dimensional differences between 1911's. I have examples from Sig, Colt, Taurus, Rock Island, Springfield and Kimber in all barrel lengths from 3.5" to 5". With the exception of Sig, who just has to do something different, as far as the area of the recoil spring guide. The dimensions we're concerned with are within a few thousandths of an inch of each other and have identical shapes. I measured the width of the dust cover, width of the recoil spring guide, width of the slide, width of the triggerguard, height of slide/dust cover, height of slide/recoil spring guide. I might add that what little difference there is would likely be found in 10 examples of the same make and model pistols as these are not critical dimensions. This is leatherworking not die sinking and leather is not a medium that lends itself to working to metal working tolerances. I can't do it and niether can those who think they can.

What is vital to a holster's retention ability and fit are quality leather, a close stitchline, good peripherial molding and good construction techniques. Detail molding, while attractive and I do it, does little to add to the fit and long term retention and is worthless if any of the former are missing. That's just my take on it. YMMV

It might be useful if some, rather than just jump in with the occassional criticism or slap at someone, shared some of their techniques for doing it, what they percieve, to be the right way.

[K-Man]

Maybe I missed something in this thread, the part where someone suggested using a five shot revolver to mold holsters for a six shot revolver or leaving the barrel exposed at the end of the holster. That and such things as using a 1911 to make holsters for a Browning HP are not sound practices and no one suggested they were.

As to the dimensional differences between 1911's. I have examples from Sig, Colt, Taurus, Rock Island, Springfield and Kimber in all barrel lengths from 3.5" to 5". With the exception of Sig, who just has to do something different, as far as the area of the recoil spring guide. The dimensions we're concerned with are within a few thousandths of an inch of each other and have identical shapes. I measured the width of the dust cover, width of the recoil spring guide, width of the slide, width of the triggerguard, height of slide/dust cover, height of slide/recoil spring guide. I might add that what little difference there is would likely be found in 10 examples of the same make and model pistols as these are not critical dimensions. This is leatherworking not die sinking and leather is not a medium that lends itself to working to metal working tolerances. I can't do it and niether can those who think they can.

What is vital to a holster's retention ability and fit are quality leather, a close stitchline, good peripherial molding and good construction techniques. Detail molding, while attractive and I do it, does little to add to the fit and long term retention and is worthless if any of the former are missing. That's just my take on it. YMMV

It might be useful if some, rather than just jump in with the occassional criticism or slap at someone, shared some of their techniques for doing it, what they percieve, to be the right way.

We're obviously making holsters on a different level from one another. Those differences between the sizes make a difference on our holsters, whether it's for a 1911 or other styles of guns.

The conversation, at least my understanding, evolved into using the proper gun for the correct fit. I only used the example, which was preceded by the words, "for example," of the 5-shot vs 6-shot cylinder to make the point of the importance of using the proper gun.

You're incorrect that the detail adds little to the fit and long term retention of the gun in the holster. Part of basic holster-making 101 shows the greater the amount of leather in direct contact with the gun is what provides for greater retention. That added detailing adds to the retention in key locations on the gun frame by virtue of the leather being pressed against the frame of the gun.

My comments are based on my personal experience, and my instruction from those holster makers who are considered the epitome of the custom holster industry. My construction of our holsters mirrors the same methods. What some folks here tout as the proper way, or a tried and true way, simply are missing the boat. You may perceive my comments as criticism, but that's probably based on the fact that they conflict with some of the information being provided here. One has only to look at the product, and listen/read of the reputation, to see the differences. If I were doing things incorrectly, I doubt seriously we would have the amount of success, and at the level, that we do.

This forum was initially derived to provide instruction on how to make items in the leathercraft industry. In this segment of the forum, we're talking about holsters. I'm not against providing instruction, and often do when contacted by the members here, and people are welcome to contact me if they desire. If that instruction conflicts with the information often touted here, well, then maybe it's time for those here to evaluate their practices.

Good luck to you.

Edited April 13, 2010 by K-Man

[Denster]

Thank you! I wish you much continued success. One thing I will say is that you do make nice holsters at a very fair price.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

To answer the OP, sometimes you can use a 5 inch gun for a 4 inch holster depending on your construction methods, but if you're doing things right you shouldn't.

For example, if you build your holsters to have the proper long term retention qualities using a Colt Govt. dummy, it is gonna be a major pain in the butt to break the holster in for a Kimber because the fit will be incredibly tight. All 1911's are not built to the same specs. A lot of folks get confused because you can mic the width of the dust cover and even the height if you remove the slide, and they will look the same, but they aren't. Different manufacturer's use different radius' on their dust covers, so while the silhouette of the pistol will look the same, one actually has a larger dust cover than the other (it's easier to see this if you measure the height of the flat portion on the outside of the dust cover). Holsters molded on Springfields and Kimbers will have too much play if the customer has a Colt or a Smith & Wesson 1911. Molding a holster on a Wilson Combat pistol may be so tight on a Para Ordnance that you can't even get the pistol in the holster to break it in or stretch it to fit, depending on how the holster is made. In my experience it is best to use the exact gun/mold for a specific holster where 1911's are concerned.

One more consideration to make for anyone who is selling their holsters professionally - Back when I carried a Hi-Power, I saw more than one company that used a 1911 to mold a Browning Hi-Power holster. As a consumer I never bought one of their holsters for anything I owned, because that was a clear indication to me of their [lack of] attention to detail and their willingness to compromise.

[BigRiverLeather]

Regarding Boomsticks comments on using a basic mold to cover several different manufacturers models, How do you rate the mold manufacturers molds as far as their specification on the specific modle they cover? The three that I am aware of are Rings, Duncans and ASP. Duncans seems to be the one that offers the most different variations. I had some luck with ASP recently on making a mold for a couple of guns that were discontinued, one being the Gen II G19 w/o a rail. The picture on their site shows it without a rail, but when I asked, their production mold DOES have the rail. They agreed to make me one without, as well as the P229 without a rail. Same scenario on the picture on their website vs actual production. I know that Rings makes the P229 in a Non rail version, but I'd prefer to combine shipping, plus ASP is considerably cheaper at a wholesale cost.

I have a few of Duncans molds, but to date, the only ones I have used are a P238 (not cocked and locked ) and the Kahr K9. No complaints from the customers on the fit on those.

I did one for a Sig Commander off of Rings Comander knowing and telling the customer that their were differences in the dust cover. He was willing to give it a try. His was tight, a day with the gun in a bag made for a perfect fit according to him.

[Dwight]

I don't make a lot of different styles, . . . nor do I make for many makes/models. Custom work is only done for THE gun the customer supplies to me for molding purposes.

However, . . . every now and then I need a new Blue Gun, . . . and THE best place to get em I have found is http://www.letargets.com/thanks.aspx . There is a sales lady there named Cathy, . . . who makes purchasing a fun situation. Our whole economic recovery could get a boost in the arm if all sales people were as helpful and considerate as she is.

Their prices were $36 each for 3 I ordered the other day, . . . which is at least 4 or 5 bucks cheaper than many other places.

To the OP, . . . if you want to make a seriously good holster, . . . you need a seriously good mold, . . . and these are in my opinion at least, . . . seriously good.

May God bless,

Dwight

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Regarding Boomsticks comments on using a basic mold to cover several different manufacturers models, How do you rate the mold manufacturers molds as far as their specification on the specific modle they cover?

ASP Red Guns are often over sized and their material is very soft. They are typically unsuited for boning holsters. I had to try out three different casts of the same model on one occasion just to get one that worked, and decided that it isn't worth the trouble.

Rings Blue Guns are slightly undersized and they usually have very good detail. This makes them very suitable for making holsters. Their material is harder than the ASP versions, although they will still wear out or break with a lot of use.

Duncans Customs makes their molds out of aluminum, so they are a more permanent solution - That's the good news. The bad news is, they are very inconsistent with their cast quality, and their staff is not always knowledgeable about firearms which makes ordering somewhat frustrating at times. When I buy a Duncan's mold I can expect to spend at least an hour cleaning up the cast, which adds to the cost significantly once you factor in shop time (or tool cost if you do it yourself).

There is also NLETC, who also make aluminum training pistols that are suitable for molding holsters. Their quality ranges from excellent to poor, depending on how used their molds are when they cast your dummy gun . I can't seem to find their contact information right now so I can't give any specifics on how to order from them.

[BigRiverLeather]

ASP Red Guns are often over sized and their material is very soft. They are typically unsuited for boning holsters. I had to try out three different casts of the same model on one occasion just to get one that worked, and decided that it isn't worth the trouble.

Hmmm, since they will be making the G19 special for me I wonder if it would do me any good to request "close tolerances" and a harder composite? We'll see. I might have to poke and hope on this one since I can't get a non rail G19 anywhere else. I'm sure there are some out there in the rings from their old models, but trying to track one down = needle in a haystack.

There is also NLETC, who also make aluminum training pistols that are suitable for molding holsters. Their quality ranges from excellent to poor, depending on how used their molds are when they cast your dummy gun . I can't seem to find their contact information right now so I can't give any specifics on how to order from them.

Is that "National Law Enforcement Training Center"? There is also Nebraska Law Enforcement Training Center . I couldn't find any info on training guns on either site.