Finding Model Guns

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

To answer the OP, sometimes you can use a 5 inch gun for a 4 inch holster depending on your construction methods, but if you're doing things right you shouldn't.

For example, if you build your holsters to have the proper long term retention qualities using a Colt Govt. dummy, it is gonna be a major pain in the butt to break the holster in for a Kimber because the fit will be incredibly tight. All 1911's are not built to the same specs. A lot of folks get confused because you can mic the width of the dust cover and even the height if you remove the slide, and they will look the same, but they aren't. Different manufacturer's use different radius' on their dust covers, so while the silhouette of the pistol will look the same, one actually has a larger dust cover than the other (it's easier to see this if you measure the height of the flat portion on the outside of the dust cover). Holsters molded on Springfields and Kimbers will have too much play if the customer has a Colt or a Smith & Wesson 1911. Molding a holster on a Wilson Combat pistol may be so tight on a Para Ordnance that you can't even get the pistol in the holster to break it in or stretch it to fit, depending on how the holster is made. In my experience it is best to use the exact gun/mold for a specific holster where 1911's are concerned.

One more consideration to make for anyone who is selling their holsters professionally - Back when I carried a Hi-Power, I saw more than one company that used a 1911 to mold a Browning Hi-Power holster. As a consumer I never bought one of their holsters for anything I owned, because that was a clear indication to me of their [lack of] attention to detail and their willingness to compromise.

[BigRiverLeather]

Regarding Boomsticks comments on using a basic mold to cover several different manufacturers models, How do you rate the mold manufacturers molds as far as their specification on the specific modle they cover? The three that I am aware of are Rings, Duncans and ASP. Duncans seems to be the one that offers the most different variations. I had some luck with ASP recently on making a mold for a couple of guns that were discontinued, one being the Gen II G19 w/o a rail. The picture on their site shows it without a rail, but when I asked, their production mold DOES have the rail. They agreed to make me one without, as well as the P229 without a rail. Same scenario on the picture on their website vs actual production. I know that Rings makes the P229 in a Non rail version, but I'd prefer to combine shipping, plus ASP is considerably cheaper at a wholesale cost.

I have a few of Duncans molds, but to date, the only ones I have used are a P238 (not cocked and locked ) and the Kahr K9. No complaints from the customers on the fit on those.

I did one for a Sig Commander off of Rings Comander knowing and telling the customer that their were differences in the dust cover. He was willing to give it a try. His was tight, a day with the gun in a bag made for a perfect fit according to him.

[Dwight]

I don't make a lot of different styles, . . . nor do I make for many makes/models. Custom work is only done for THE gun the customer supplies to me for molding purposes.

However, . . . every now and then I need a new Blue Gun, . . . and THE best place to get em I have found is http://www.letargets.com/thanks.aspx . There is a sales lady there named Cathy, . . . who makes purchasing a fun situation. Our whole economic recovery could get a boost in the arm if all sales people were as helpful and considerate as she is.

Their prices were $36 each for 3 I ordered the other day, . . . which is at least 4 or 5 bucks cheaper than many other places.

To the OP, . . . if you want to make a seriously good holster, . . . you need a seriously good mold, . . . and these are in my opinion at least, . . . seriously good.

May God bless,

Dwight

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Regarding Boomsticks comments on using a basic mold to cover several different manufacturers models, How do you rate the mold manufacturers molds as far as their specification on the specific modle they cover?

ASP Red Guns are often over sized and their material is very soft. They are typically unsuited for boning holsters. I had to try out three different casts of the same model on one occasion just to get one that worked, and decided that it isn't worth the trouble.

Rings Blue Guns are slightly undersized and they usually have very good detail. This makes them very suitable for making holsters. Their material is harder than the ASP versions, although they will still wear out or break with a lot of use.

Duncans Customs makes their molds out of aluminum, so they are a more permanent solution - That's the good news. The bad news is, they are very inconsistent with their cast quality, and their staff is not always knowledgeable about firearms which makes ordering somewhat frustrating at times. When I buy a Duncan's mold I can expect to spend at least an hour cleaning up the cast, which adds to the cost significantly once you factor in shop time (or tool cost if you do it yourself).

There is also NLETC, who also make aluminum training pistols that are suitable for molding holsters. Their quality ranges from excellent to poor, depending on how used their molds are when they cast your dummy gun . I can't seem to find their contact information right now so I can't give any specifics on how to order from them.

[BigRiverLeather]

ASP Red Guns are often over sized and their material is very soft. They are typically unsuited for boning holsters. I had to try out three different casts of the same model on one occasion just to get one that worked, and decided that it isn't worth the trouble.

Hmmm, since they will be making the G19 special for me I wonder if it would do me any good to request "close tolerances" and a harder composite? We'll see. I might have to poke and hope on this one since I can't get a non rail G19 anywhere else. I'm sure there are some out there in the rings from their old models, but trying to track one down = needle in a haystack.

There is also NLETC, who also make aluminum training pistols that are suitable for molding holsters. Their quality ranges from excellent to poor, depending on how used their molds are when they cast your dummy gun . I can't seem to find their contact information right now so I can't give any specifics on how to order from them.

Is that "National Law Enforcement Training Center"? There is also Nebraska Law Enforcement Training Center . I couldn't find any info on training guns on either site.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

It was National Law Enforcement Training Center. I did some looking and it is now "Lindell Aluminum Training Guns". Their phone numbers is (816) 531-5750.

[BigRiverLeather]

Thanks! I left a message with them, no content on their website. Google gave me this though -

From this thread

http://pistolsmith.com/holsters-belts/21076-another-aluminum-dummy-gun-manufacturer.html

[particle]

Interesting - in that Pistolsmith thread, the OP said "I have spoken to them about casting new guns and they seemed interested. They were unaware that holster makers used these for there business until recently, but now that they know it it might be a good reason to expand." Why are they forming the rib on top of the slide, if not for holster sight channels? What else would they be for? My Duncan 5" 1911 didn't have the sight channel rib on top, but I sure wish it did!

[particle]

Along the line of the Duncan and Rings dummy guns - for those of you that are concerned about exact tolerances between one manufacturer's 1911 and another, how do you handle the variations between a dummy gun and a real gun? My 5" 1911 from Duncan looks a stick of butter that's been left out in the sun too long. But, people use Duncan's aluminum dummy guns all the time to form holsters. What do you pro's that are concerned about using the "exact" gun for the given size holster use for your molding? Because I know you're not using Duncan's dummies. Rings doesn't carry everything. Are you having your own polymer dummies molded from customer's actual guns?

[Denster]

As an addendum to Particles's previous post. This question is for K-Man and Boomstick. Roughly how many guns, blue or otherwise, do you feel it is necesary to have to accomodate the various barrel lengths 3" to 5" of 1911's from just the major players like Kimber, Colt, Sig, S&W, Para, RI, Taurus, Springfiled and Charles Daly given the differences you've mentioned. Skip the custom makers and railed frames. That's a whole other can of worms. Serious question guys.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

As an addendum to Particles's previous post. This question is for K-Man and Boomstick. Roughly how many guns, blue or otherwise, do you feel it is necesary to have to accomodate the various barrel lengths 3" to 5" of 1911's from just the major players like Kimber, Colt, Sig, S&W, Para, RI, Taurus, Springfiled and Charles Daly given the differences you've mentioned. Skip the custom makers and railed frames. That's a whole other can of worms. Serious question guys.

It's not so much how many guns you need to have, but whether you have the right ones to do the job you need to do. You can pretty much get away with using a Springfield Loaded 5" to build a Kimber Custom 5" holster, but you can't make a SW1911 holster with it. It takes a lot of trial and error and a great amount of time and expense to figure out which ones work with what. There are so many 1911 manufacturers that it would be extremely cost prohibitive (and in many cases unnecessary) to acquire a dummy gun for each one, but in some cases you can't cut corners. I have actually cut back and sold several dummy guns, so I don't have as many 1911 models as I did. Even so, off the top of my head I can count around a dozen separate models that I have in my dummy gun inventory.

If you were trying to cover the basics without worrying about the railed models or the oddball stuff, I would get these models with ambidextrous safeties, extended if possible:

Colt Govt. 5"

Colt Commander 4.25"

Colt Officer 3.5"

Colt Defender 3"

Springfield Loaded 5" or Kimber Custom II

Springfield Champion 4" or Kimber Pro Carry II

Springfield Micro 3" or Kimber Ultra Carry II

Those should allow you to do the majority of holsters out there. The real task is obtaining them.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Along the line of the Duncan and Rings dummy guns - for those of you that are concerned about exact tolerances between one manufacturer's 1911 and another, how do you handle the variations between a dummy gun and a real gun? My 5" 1911 from Duncan looks a stick of butter that's been left out in the sun too long. But, people use Duncan's aluminum dummy guns all the time to form holsters. What do you pro's that are concerned about using the "exact" gun for the given size holster use for your molding? Because I know you're not using Duncan's dummies. Rings doesn't carry everything. Are you having your own polymer dummies molded from customer's actual guns?

Tolerance differences are OK as long as they aren't too far off and the dummy gun is on the negative side (which is usually the case, since casts are often around 2% smaller than the master copy).

As far as Duncan's is concerned, if the dummy gun looks like a stick of melted butter I call Luke or Jessica and send it back. Once I have a good cast, I take it to a local machine shop and finish/clean up the work. This usually includes truing up the trigger guard and the dust cover, opening up the ejection port, removing "wrapper veins" from the frame, and cutting a channel for a front sight rail and welding it in place. Sometimes that takes up a couple hours of shop time, but it is what I choose to do to meet my minimum standards.

For about a $250 investment, you can actually make your own mold and cast the dummies how you want (for you own use, not to sell). My goal is to do this with all the pistols that I will continue to support, but that won't happen for a while.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Interesting - in that Pistolsmith thread, the OP said "I have spoken to them about casting new guns and they seemed interested. They were unaware that holster makers used these for there business until recently, but now that they know it it might be a good reason to expand." Why are they forming the rib on top of the slide, if not for holster sight channels? What else would they be for? My Duncan 5" 1911 didn't have the sight channel rib on top, but I sure wish it did!

I took that picture and made that post. I hoped they would pursue the holster makers' market, but it never went anywhere. The "ribs" on the top of the slides are definitely for molding sight channels; I know because I put them there! For what it's worth, you can pay extra to have Duncans add a sight rail if you send the pistol in to have it cast.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Thanks! I left a message with them, no content on their website. Google gave me this though -

From this thread

http://pistolsmith.c...nufacturer.html

Heh heh heh...

The sad thing is that was my post. I totally forgot that they changed their name when they broke off from NLETC and Odin Press. It was no wonder that I couldn't find their contact info anymore. It sucks to get older.....

[Denster]

It's not so much how many guns you need to have, but whether you have the right ones to do the job you need to do. You can pretty much get away with using a Springfield Loaded 5" to build a Kimber Custom 5" holster, but you can't make a SW1911 holster with it. It takes a lot of trial and error and a great amount of time and expense to figure out which ones work with what. There are so many 1911 manufacturers that it would be extremely cost prohibitive (and in many cases unnecessary) to acquire a dummy gun for each one, but in some cases you can't cut corners. I have actually cut back and sold several dummy guns, so I don't have as many 1911 models as I did. Even so, off the top of my head I can count around a dozen separate models that I have in my dummy gun inventory.

If you were trying to cover the basics without worrying about the railed models or the oddball stuff, I would get these models with ambidextrous safeties, extended if possible:

Colt Govt. 5"

Colt Commander 4.25"

Colt Officer 3.5"

Colt Defender 3"

Springfield Loaded 5" or Kimber Custom II

Springfield Champion 4" or Kimber Pro Carry II

Springfield Micro 3" or Kimber Ultra Carry II

Those should allow you to do the majority of holsters out there. The real task is obtaining them.

Thanks for the info Jeff.

[mugwump]

i realize i'm a newbie at it, but for the two holsters i've made so far, i used air soft 'gas blowback' guns for the forms (a baretta 9mm, and a 1911 govt.) both were 1:1 size/replicas. anyway here's a couple places. i have no connection to any of these place, they they came up from a quick google search. i didnt have the real mccoy handy, and didnt really want to get then wet when forming the holsters when i had a substitute handy. anyway take it with a grain of salt, it was just a thought...

eric

evike.com

redwolf

airsoft.com

airgun depot

[lilrays]

Many thanks for the info on the airsoft sites. I've been using different airsoft models for my holster designs. When possible, always try to get one with the gun makers licensing logo on the package. That way, you have a very good change that this is an actual 1 to 1 size configuration with the real thing. Hope this add on helps.