Reconstructing 17Th Century Sword Scabbards

[UKRay]

We had some discussion on this subject a while back but I'm no nearer being able to recreate the 'hard' leather of a 17th century sword scabbard than I was before. I wonder if anyone has any ideas on this.

Let me explain: I regularly have to re-make old sword scabbards for museums and collectors and although I can make a perfectly adequate 'display piece' replica from modern leather I am still not absolutely certain what sort of leather they were made from originally. An educated guess suggests 1.5 to 2mm thick veg tan / oak bark tan of some kind but was this a special tannage? Anyone got any thoughts on where authentic material might be obtained or where I might find anyone who may be doing the same job as me now?

Next question: I'm at a loss to decide how to treat my leather to get the same level of rigidity the 'old guys' achieved. I have tried many types of leather and haven't found a solution to what I call 'scabbard droop' - any ideas?

I liked Peter Ellis' acrylic floor polish idea for armour (in another thread) and wondered if that might work in this instance. Any thoughts? It isn't quite 'kosher' but hey, if it gets the job done I'm for it! Might they have painted the inside of the scabbard with some kind of sealer/shellac/something to give it rigidity? If so, how did they do it given the leather scabbard tube is usually 2ft long and only an inch or so in diameter... How did they get it to soak right through and create a hard shell?

I have done all the warm/hot/boiling water through the tube stuff and not achieved much at all apart from some very soggy tubes of leather. Okay they dry stiff but this clumsy product isn't the same thing as the beautifully finished scabbards made in the 17th and 18th century. Where am I going wrong?

I think it needs discussion and would welcome ideas and opinions from those who have made this kind of thing. Maybe you have the solution - I do hope so.

Ray

[MADMAX22]

Well I must honestly say I dont know a thing about the scabbards and such but the first thing that came to mind was this thread http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=6375&st=0&p=72916&fromsearch=1entry72916

Remember also that part of the boiling thing is its gotta be pretty exact on the temps and such. Another method may be baking the leather (forgot the temp around 170F I think) but that is suppose to make it pretty hard. Not sure of the entire process though. You could possibly wet form it then bake it and give it a nice shine afterwards.

Another thought that comes to mind is the same method for doing the inside of mugs, water bags, canteens and such where they used the pitch and wax melted then coated the inside of the things. I think this lends a certain amount of rigidity to the leather as well but I am not certain as I have not played with this.

Could also be just the tannage they use to use. I mean there is a huge difference in stiffness from say herman oak compared to some of the tandy leather or the vegtan from say waterhouse leather.

Sorry if you have already thought of these or tried them, just my rambling thoughts.

[Bondurant]

Not sure what your project is exactly but many leather scabbards are braced with wood and or metal. European leather sword scabbards are beyond my expertise but you're welcome to go to Dons and ask, somebody there will have answers for you. The picture below is a scabbard made by Ben Potter off a tutorial posted somewhere on the forum, I can probably find it for you if you want.

Don Fogg Bladesmiths Forum

[MikeCahill]

<snip>: I regularly have to re-make old sword scabbards for museums and collectors and although I can make a perfectly adequate 'display piece' replica from modern leather I am still not absolutely certain what sort of leather they were made from originally. An educated guess suggests 1.5 to 2mm thick veg tan / oak bark tan of some kind but was this a special tannage? Anyone got any thoughts on where authentic material might be obtained or where I might find anyone who may be doing the same job as me now?

Next question: I'm at a loss to decide how to treat my leather to get the same level of rigidity the 'old guys' achieved. I have tried many types of leather and haven't found a solution to what I call 'scabbard droop' - any ideas?

<snip>

Modern veg tan leather is I believe drum tanned which continually flexes the skin giving a softer finished product, (a much quicker process). I think I might try soaking an oversized piece of leather in water with tanning solution such as s shredded oak bark for a couple of months and hopefully when dried it will make a stiffer leather I would then work warmed or even melted beeswax into the leather (use friction, a hairdryer or hot air gun to get it deep into the structure from both sides) I think you will find this gives a much stiffer leather to shape it you may need to use a heated iron with the leather on a former the shape of the scabard

[Spinner]

Depending on what geographic area you're looking at, it may be similar to the process I'm researching right now. In Europe in the 1700s and 1800s there was a process of making sheaths, particularly for knifes but also for swords, that used what is called half tanned leather. The tanning process is stopped about half-way through so the end result is a leather with 3 parts to it. The exterior flesh and skin sides are tanned but the middle 50% (think the filling on a sandwich) is still rawhide. This allows it to do a couple of things: a) when it dries, it shrinks more than fully tanned leather making for a more precise fit the center/core of rawhide dries harder than boiled full tanned leather making it more rigid

I ordered some half-tanned leather from Finland today and will report back once I get it and have more first hand knowledge. Hope this helps.

[tonyc1]

Depending on what geographic area you're looking at, it may be similar to the process I'm researching right now. In Europe in the 1700s and 1800s there was a process of making sheaths, particularly for knifes but also for swords, that used what is called half tanned leather. The tanning process is stopped about half-way through so the end result is a leather with 3 parts to it. The exterior flesh and skin sides are tanned but the middle 50% (think the filling on a sandwich) is still rawhide. This allows it to do a couple of things: a) when it dries, it shrinks more than fully tanned leather making for a more precise fit the center/core of rawhide dries harder than boiled full tanned leather making it more rigid

I ordered some half-tanned leather from Finland today and will report back once I get it and have more first hand knowledge. Hope this helps.

The leather with a rawhide centre used to be available here in Australia, not sure if it still is available. I've used it for girth points on riding and pacing saddles and it was very strong.

Tony.

[UKRay]

I ordered some half-tanned leather from Finland today and will report back once I get it and have more first hand knowledge. Hope this helps.

Many thanks for this Spinner, I have made some enquiries and hopefully will see some half-tanned leather here pretty soon. I'm looking forward to experimenting!

Ray

[Tina]

That leather can also be found in Sweden, This is from one of the supplier I'm using over here:

http://www.slojddetaljer.se/deptlist.aspx?deptid=136&showAll=true

The leather halfway tanned is called " Rårand/Norskt Valkläder" Now, there's another type here just called "Råläder/Lappläder"

(Raw leather/lapp leather)and the usage according to the text might be just what you're looking for Ray:

Råläder är ett helt ogarvat skinn. Det

är utmärkt om man vill ha hårda fodral

eller knivslidor. Skinnet blötlägges före

bearbetning och återfår sin hårdhet

när det torkat. Tjocklek 1,7-2 mm

Translation:

"Raw leather is totally untanned, it is perfect for that hard

sheet/scabbard. The leather is put in water before being

used/worked at and will recover the stiffness when dry.

thickness 1.7-2mm."

I hope this will give you some ideas :-)

[Spinner]

Many thanks for this Spinner, I have made some enquiries and hopefully will see some half-tanned leather here pretty soon. I'm looking forward to experimenting!

Ray

No problem Ray, I actually came across all the information by accident one night, can't remember why, but I have been intrigued ever since.

The shop I am working with is http://www.brisa.fi they have been very nice and have a number of folks on staff that speak/write fluent English so that has helped.

They carry both the half tanned and lapp leather mentioned here as well. (Side note, if you register for their website before ordering the pricing is 10-20% less than normally displayed).

I also splurged and bought and Enzo Nordic style knife kit so looking forward to making my first knife as well.

[Daggrim]

Ray, I've cuir buoillied lots of leather for my helmets, and it's extremely difficult to do that on anything thinner than 8 oz. The time/temperature window gets smaller as the leather gets thinner. It also narrows for thick leather that is floppy, and not very dense. I shoot for 175 degrees, and eye it like a hawk after a minute.

For thinner leather, I heat it at around 160 degrees for 3 or 4 minutes, time not being critical, then I oven bake it at 190 for about a half hour. The leather gets darker, and it scorches a tiny bit wherever it's touching it's supports. It also makes the leather tougher to dye, having some very hard areas. I don't think it would work very well for a scabbard. Too much distortion.

I've never tried wax because I've always gotten very good results using just water. Wax appears to make the leather even harder, but I've heard that that is deceptive, because on a hot day, the leather will soften.

What about drying the wet leather by forming it around a warmed up sword blade? It'd be the perfect mandrel.

Doug