Medieval Helmet

[Daggrim]

Hi people. I haven't posted any pictures for a long time, so here is a sample of what I've been doing. Also, thanks to everyone who's been so generous with their time and help on this forum.

The scale stamping is my first time, so the alignment of the scales if not consistent.

Doug

[Luke Hatley]

Hi people. I haven't posted any pictures for a long time, so here is a sample of what I've been doing. Also, thanks to everyone who's been so generous with their time and help on this forum.

The scale stamping is my first time, so the alignment of the scales if not consistent.

Doug

Your Helments are looking Great. What type of Rivets did you finally decide on.

[Penden]

They look good!

And nice picture size... it actually fit on my computer screen

[Daggrim]

Hi Luke. I'm using 15mm rapid rivets, ordered from Birdsall Leather in AU. Very spendy to buy and ship, but the only source I've found on this wide planet. The largest is normally 12mm, but the 15mm allow me to use thicker leather for a sturdier product. The helmets have a nice heft with 12-13 oz leather.

Tubular rivets are stronger, but if they're not just the right length, they don't compress enough, and they stand out above the leather. Copper rivets are for next year, when I have more time to experiment.

Doug

Your Helments are looking Great. What type of Rivets did you finally decide on.

[fishguy]

Those look really nice, good shape and workmanship. There were possibly a lot more leather helmets used than metal ones in the old days, but the leather ones don't last. Have you ever done a warhat-chapel de fer like this one

http://www.albion-swords.com/armor/mercenary/pikemans.htm

I think it would come out pretty cool and since it is the helmet of an ordinary foot soldier there were probably a lot of them that were made from leather in the old days.

[hivemind]

Those look really nice, good shape and workmanship. There were possibly a lot more leather helmets used than metal ones in the old days, but the leather ones don't last. Have you ever done a warhat-chapel de fer like this one

http://www.albion-sw...ry/pikemans.htm

I think it would come out pretty cool and since it is the helmet of an ordinary foot soldier there were probably a lot of them that were made from leather in the old days.

Hey man, I hate to be "that guy", but you're hitting a topic near and dear to my heart.

Can you provide some scholarly, historical evidence for your claim that there was a lot more leather armor than metal? Because the historical record shows a vanishingly small amount of leather armor. If it was a prevalent as some people like to claim, why isn't there ever any of it found at archaeological dig sites? They find plenty of belts, shoes, pouches, harness, and other things made of leather, but next to nothing in the way of armor.

Not taking away anything from Daggrim's work (it's great) but the historical facts indicate that the vast overwhelming majority of armor was made of metal. Clothing was made of leather.

[AndyL1]

Such great pieces! Thanks for sharing.

-Andy

[fishguy]

I prefer that girl (Marlo was pretty cute in her younger days) to that guy but O.K. Check out John Waterer 's "Leather and the warrior" for a more scholarly treatment. The reasoning behind my statement

1. Leather is known to have been used in historical armor, and provides reasonably effective protection against many hand to hand weapons (not as good as steel, but oh well0

2. Metal armor was quite expensive, required high levels of technology and skill (for the period)to produce and was so probably unavailable to the common soldier. Leather was widely available and cheap and could be made into armor with tools and processes available to pretty much anyone.

3. Leather is preserved for long periods of time only under extremely specialized conditions and actually is a fairly unusual find in archeological digs

4. There were a helluva a lot more shoes and belts made than armor so if you are going to find any leather at all it is far more likely to find them than pieces of armor.

5. Compared to the amount of armor that probably existed, only a very small percentage was preserved. Most of it that exists to this day belonged to the gentry, or had some artistic or historical significance. It is highly unlikely that anyone would have kept a beat-up old leather helmet that belonged to some food soldier.

[Daggrim]

No, I've never made a kettle helm, but you're right about thier ubiquity in medieval times. It's a good suggestion, and I'll put it in my mental files, and I may get around to developing one this winter.

Dag

Those look really nice, good shape and workmanship. There were possibly a lot more leather helmets used than metal ones in the old days, but the leather ones don't last. Have you ever done a warhat-chapel de fer like this one

http://www.albion-sw...ry/pikemans.htm

I think it would come out pretty cool and since it is the helmet of an ordinary foot soldier there were probably a lot of them that were made from leather in the old days.

[hivemind]

I prefer that girl (Marlo was pretty cute in her younger days) to that guy but O.K. Check out John Waterer 's "Leather and the warrior" for a more scholarly treatment. The reasoning behind my statement

1. Leather is known to have been used in historical armor, and provides reasonably effective protection against many hand to hand weapons (not as good as steel, but oh well0

2. Metal armor was quite expensive, required high levels of technology and skill (for the period)to produce and was so probably unavailable to the common soldier. Leather was widely available and cheap and could be made into armor with tools and processes available to pretty much anyone.

3. Leather is preserved for long periods of time only under extremely specialized conditions and actually is a fairly unusual find in archeological digs

4. There were a helluva a lot more shoes and belts made than armor so if you are going to find any leather at all it is far more likely to find them than pieces of armor.

5. Compared to the amount of armor that probably existed, only a very small percentage was preserved. Most of it that exists to this day belonged to the gentry, or had some artistic or historical significance. It is highly unlikely that anyone would have kept a beat-up old leather helmet that belonged to some food soldier.

I do not agree, but I'm happy that there was thought and reasoning behind your first statement. Thanks for replying.

I'll stop derailing Daggrim's fine work now.

[Daggrim]

Any of you folks gonna be attending any renfaires in the midwest? I'll be at DesMoines, IA later this summer, and at one in Danville, IL, then one in Davenport , IA area, and maybe one near Indianapolis.

Dag

I do not agree, but I'm happy that there was thought and reasoning behind your first statement. Thanks for replying.

I'll stop derailing Daggrim's fine work now.

[hivemind]

Man I'd love to meet you at a faire, but I'm on New York and don't get out that way much. I'll be in western PA for Ragnarok in a couple weeks, you should consider vending there. Going to be probably 2000 people there for a week: http://www.einherjarsvalhalla.com/ragnarok/ragnarok.html

[BlackRivet]

I would confidently wear one of these beasts into battle.

[Daggrim]

Hivemind,

That's a cool link. Always looking for a way to make a buck, and have fun. There's a Dagorhir group near me, now that I've moved to IL, so I'm planning on meeting up with them sometime this year.

Dag

Man I'd love to meet you at a faire, but I'm on New York and don't get out that way much. I'll be in western PA for Ragnarok in a couple weeks, you should consider vending there. Going to be probably 2000 people there for a week: http://www.einherjar...k/ragnarok.html

Well...ahem...I don't mean to be too mercenary, but they ARE for sale

http://leatherhelms.com

I would confidently wear one of these beasts into battle.

[hivemind]

Hivemind,

That's a cool link. Always looking for a way to make a buck, and have fun. There's a Dagorhir group near me, now that I've moved to IL, so I'm planning on meeting up with them sometime this year.

Dag

I gotta tell you, any business plan that depends solely on Dagorhirrim to spend money is probably doomed to failure - 99% of them are ungodly cheap. I mean, it's a game where you can get away with playing barefoot and shirtless in scrub pants and no one will really bat an eye. But, once in a while you will find some people willing to pay for quality. I just sold a Dag guy a pair of tooled bracers and a pouch for $150, so they are out there. You build up a rapport with the local group and they'll open doors for you. If anyone asks about you on the national forums, I'll gladly pitch your name.

In fact, I just scared a guy off by asking for a ridiculous amount of money for a helmet, because I don't want to make them - but you might be just what he's looking for. I'll send him your email.

[fishguy]

Hivemind,

That's a cool link. Always looking for a way to make a buck, and have fun. There's a Dagorhir group near me, now that I've moved to IL, so I'm planning on meeting up with them sometime this year.

Dag

Well...ahem...I don't mean to be too mercenary, but they ARE for sale

http://leatherhelms.com

Not mercenary, mercantile.....ain't nothin' wrong with that.

[Skald]

Really nice work. I might be a little late here to praise your work though.

I am a little curious about how you shape these helmets? Do you wet form them on anything, in that case what, or how do you make these really? They look really well shaped in any case.

[Eldorado]

Taking nothing away from the tremendous work displayed here, it seems the discussion of whether (or to what extent) leather armor was used in war in the medieval period comes up from time to time.

I'd like to offer the following link to the Met, which shows examples of surviving horse armor out of cuirbouli and makes a pretty definitive statement that "the use of hardened leather defenses was once more widespread than assumed." http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/26.235.1-.3

The Metropolitan Museum of Art would seem to be a fairly reliable source.

[daveydude]

Nice helmets. What is the brass pointy thing on the first one?

[douglais]

It's a piece of hardware from a decorative lamp I found at a thrift store. I haven't seen anything like it for a very long time, either at thrift stores, or online.

BTW, I love your Elven Helm. A tremendous amount of work, and a great variety of skills. I'm humbled.

Dag

Nice helmets. What is the brass pointy thing on the first one?

[fishguy]

Taking nothing away from the tremendous work displayed here, it seems the discussion of whether (or to what extent) leather armor was used in war in the medieval period comes up from time to time.

I'd like to offer the following link to the Met, which shows examples of surviving horse armor out of cuirbouli and makes a pretty definitive statement that "the use of hardened leather defenses was once more widespread than assumed." http://www.metmuseum...art/26.235.1-.3

The Metropolitan Museum of Art would seem to be a fairly reliable source.

Interesting that it was apparently coated with gesso before painting. Gesso is basically white primer that is laid down on surfaces to prepare them for painting, it was used under pretty much all the historical paintings you have seen. Old style was rabbit hide glue with chalk in it, the new stuff is mostly acrylic (though you can get the old stuff). That would be one way to get strong colors, especially white, on leather.

[Tinneal]

I want to make one of those, but I have no idea what I would do with it! Wear it to my beef production class, maybe?

[douglais]

You want to start a stampede?

I want to make one of those, but I have no idea what I would do with it! Wear it to my beef production class, maybe?

[Tinneal]

Ha! Unfortunately we only get to interact with real cattle about once a month. The rest of the time is just paper and lectures and videos. But there are plenty of herds back home!