Pricing Of Hand Carved Belts

[mike59]

I'm sure this may have been discussed before, but am also sure that many of the makers are confused about pricing their work. I will ask this of the high-end belt makers;

What is a realistic price to ask for a custom made, hand carved belt? I find that with the pattern design, I normally will have about thirty-five to forty hours in high-end custom made belt.

At fifteen dollars an hour, which is my shop rate, it's easy to have six-hundred dollars in a belt, just in labor. That's twice what anyone seems to be willing to pay. Am I taking too long,

or charging too much?

Any, and all comments will be appreciated.

[pete]

Please, I don't mean to offend you but, are you really slow at carving and finishing? What kind of belts take 40 hours!? I tool sheridan style belts and have them out in 3 days.

To answer your question, a suggestion MIGHT be to charge by the inch. I know many makers who charge 2-3 dollars an inch, some a dollar an inch.

Again- no offense to you and your projects.

pete

[pete]

After reading your note again- I think that you must be making "Peter Main" quality high end belts, so you very well could have 30 hours in them!

I apologize if I offended you and I would love to see the work that you are doing as I am always trying to improve me workmanship

respectfully,

pete

[MADMAX22]

I dont have a business and charge far less then what its worth but I have recently been trying to keep track of my time while making things. I am a somewhat slow tooler due to not that experienced so that has some factor in it.

For say a 50" total belt (about a 34" waste I think) it takes me roughly about 5-8 hrs tooling, about 2-3 hours hand stitching (hand stitch everything right now), say about 2 hours for all finishing and edging. Throw in some reasonable fudge factor so around total 15 hrs say for a complete belt of actual work time.

Personally I would be happy to get around $160 or so for a tooled nice belt. Then again like I said I dont have a shop and with limited experience. Once I get better I could see charging more. Ofcourse that depends on what the customer is willing to pay as well.

Would love to see some pictures of your work by the way.

Edited June 5, 2010 by MADMAX22

[mike59]

After reading your note again- I think that you must be making "Peter Main" quality high end belts, so you very well could have 30 hours in them!

I apologize if I offended you and I would love to see the work that you are doing as I am always trying to improve me workmanship

respectfully,

pete

No need to appologize, Pete, I feel that I am spending too much time on these as well, however, I am including my pattern layout design on customers' request orders into that time as well.

I can't compare to Peter Main's work, as I am afraid that I'm not well aquainted with his belts. I do understand that his work is acceptional, and do not claim to be in that class.

I would ask about your post of April 30, 2010 concerning the time you spent on a layout design for a belt. I believe you stated that you spent 2 hours and not reached the second flower? I think this may be some of the labor time I am refering to. I would also ask that on a belt order, you stated that you would have it carved, finished, and out in three days. How many hours per day have you devoted to these belts?

Part of my point is that I try, as do you, I'm sure, to make the best product for the customer that I possibly can, and for that effort, I expect to make a reasonable return on my investment of time, tools and shop costs.

If you are interested in seeing some of my work, you can go to my website; www.mbarsranchgear.com or at some of the pictures in my gallery.

I very much appreciate your response.

Mike

[mike59]

I dont have a business and charge far less then what its worth but I have recently been trying to keep track of my time while making things. I am a somewhat slow tooler due to not that experienced so that has some factor in it.

For say a 50" total belt (about a 34" waste I think) it takes me roughly about 5-8 hrs tooling, about 2-3 hours hand stitching (hand stitch everything right now), say about 2 hours for all finishing and edging. Throw in some reasonable fudge factor so around total 15 hrs say for a complete belt of actual work time.

Personally I would be happy to get around $160 or so for a tooled nice belt. Then again like I said I dont have a shop and with limited experience. Once I get better I could see charging more. Ofcourse that depends on what the customer is willing to pay as well.

Would love to see some pictures of your work by the way.

Thanks for your input. I know that I'm slow as well, but I want it to be right. I do know that some of our competitors belts start at around $250.00 and go up from there, and my stuff is every bit as good as theirs. I know that doesn't mean much, but I just wanted a real world opinion on "realistic" pricing and expectations. If you are interested you can see some of my work at; www.mbarsranchgear.com or on my gallery here on LW.

Thanks for your response,

Mike

[dustin29]

Thanks for your input. I know that I'm slow as well, but I want it to be right. I do know that some of our competitors belts start at around $250.00 and go up from there, and my stuff is every bit as good as theirs. I know that doesn't mean much, but I just wanted a real world opinion on "realistic" pricing and expectations. If you are interested you can see some of my work at; www.mbarsranchgear.com or on my gallery here on LW.

Thanks for your response,

Mike

I don't know much about pricing, but I would like to say you're right your stuff is definately very nice.

[JLSleather]

I don't know that there is a "formula" for this, Mike.

I've seen people pass up some very nice work to pay MORE for a piece that had me wondering what that cow did to the "crafter" to deserve that done to it Apparently, the buyer was one of those who thinks that more expensive = better.

Can't really go by time invested, cuz I've seen 20 hours of work turn into some gorgeous pieces AND 20 hours become a disaster. And then there's that thing where you and I both make the same item. If the items are equally attractive and durable, reason says they should be the same price - even if it took me twice as long.

Sadly, there's an old saying that "fair market value" is what you can get. Skipping long conversations about stuff I've sold, here's a couple o' quick thoughts about the sales I DIDN'T get ... one where the customer thought that was WAY too much money for ANY handbag where the clasp and dees weren't REAL gold, and one where the price was SO "reasonable" they thought there MUST be something wrong with it!

These days, I just figure what it's worth to ME to do it. If a potential customer likes that, great. If for any reason they don't agree with me, that's okay too.

OH, before I get out of the way ... just wanted to say I like your work

Edited June 6, 2010 by JLSleather

[mike59]

I don't know much about pricing, but I would like to say you're right your stuff is definately very nice.

Much obliged Dustin.

[TwinOaks]

Am I taking too long,

or charging too much?

Either yes, or you have the wrong customer base. As I've read on here: If you get all the jobs you bid, you're charging too little, if you get none, you're charging too much. I suggest developing a few shortcuts. Have some "pattern packs" available as standard fare, complete with 'craft-aid' style stencils. That should help with the layout time, and if you have a customer wanting a completely original piece, show them the cost. If they're willing to pay it, you've got a $600 belt customer. If they balk, drop back down to something you already have drawn up.

I looked at the belts you have on your website and, yes, they're nice. But if you don't have a customer base willing to pay for it, then you either drop prices, drop products, or find new clientele.

[mike59]

I don't know that there is a "formula" for this, Mike.

I've seen people pass up some very nice work to pay MORE for a piece that had me wondering what that cow did to the "crafter" to deserve that done to it Apparently, the buyer was one of those who thinks that more expensive = better.

Can't really go by time invested, cuz I've seen 20 hours of work turn into some gorgeous pieces AND 20 hours become a disaster. And then there's that thing where you and I both make the same item. If the items are equally attractive and durable, reason says they should be the same price - even if it took me twice as long.

Sadly, there's an old saying that "fair market value" is what you can get. Skipping long conversations about stuff I've sold, here's a couple o' quick thoughts about the sales I DIDN'T get ... one where the customer thought that was WAY too much money for ANY handbag where the clasp and dees weren't REAL gold, and one where the price was SO "reasonable" they thought there MUST be something wrong with it!

These days, I just figure what it's worth to ME to do it. If a potential customer likes that, great. If for any reason they don't agree with me, that's okay too.

OH, before I get out of the way ... just wanted to say I like your work

JLS,

Everything you say is so true, and your points well taken. I suppose it will be up to me whether to continue offering these things, or buy an embosser and crank out ten per day, charge sixty bucks for them and be done with it.

I do appreciate your response, and thank you for the kind evaluation.

Mike

[pete]

No need to appologize, Pete, I feel that I am spending too much time on these as well, however, I am including my pattern layout design on customers' request orders into that time as well.

I can't compare to Peter Main's work, as I am afraid that I'm not well aquainted with his belts. I do understand that his work is acceptional, and do not claim to be in that class.

I would ask about your post of April 30, 2010 concerning the time you spent on a layout design for a belt. I believe you stated that you spent 2 hours and not reached the second flower? I think this may be some of the labor time I am refering to. I would also ask that on a belt order, you stated that you would have it carved, finished, and out in three days. How many hours per day have you devoted to these belts?

Part of my point is that I try, as do you, I'm sure, to make the best product for the customer that I possibly can, and for that effort, I expect to make a reasonable return on my investment of time, tools and shop costs.

If you are interested in seeing some of my work, you can go to my website; www.mbarsranchgear.com or at some of the pictures in my gallery.

I very much appreciate your response.

Mike

I appreciate your "appreciating" my reply! Nice work on you web page.

I was referring to MY drawing skills. I make belts from patterns or originals that I have drawn in the past so I never count that into the cost. As far as MY drawing goes- I still spend days with it and yes hours to get to the next flower!!! but I'm getting better!!!!!!

[Billy P]

Hey Mike, this may or may not apply to the pricing question. I've messed up leather since about 73 or 74, had a small but, decent business from about 76 thru the early 80's. It's been my observation that most people don't have a clue about good leather work or the time it takes to turn out the pretty stuff that catches their eye. I don't do very much now diabetes and 2 heart attacks have cut me back but, still do some stuff. To get to my point I made my uncle a belt, some of the old guy's he and I now hang out with asked me about making them a belt too. I just charged them the cost of materials + maybe a cup of coffee at the little store where we hang out. Well this other fellow saw their belts and asked about one for him so I said alright, he asks how much, so I say about 20 or 25 bucks and a cup of coffee. His face turned red and he said "man I can go to the flea market and get a belt for 10 or 12 dollars", I say go to the market then. He comes back about a month later and says his flea market belt is already broke, so go ahead and make him one. I tell him alright but now it's gonna cost at least $50. He gets red in the face again and ask me why, so I say before I was gonna give him the same deal as the rest but not now. Moral is some, probably most people want a deal plus the don't know what it takes to make what they want so they don't appreciate the difference it takes to make a one of a kind item versus the millions of machine made. A lot said, probably to say nothing, but if you could ever figure people out you would have a better chance to set the right price. Later, Billy P

[mike59]

Hey Mike, this may or may not apply to the pricing question. I've messed up leather since about 73 or 74, had a small but, decent business from about 76 thru the early 80's. It's been my observation that most people don't have a clue about good leather work or the time it takes to turn out the pretty stuff that catches their eye. I don't do very much now diabetes and 2 heart attacks have cut me back but, still do some stuff. To get to my point I made my uncle a belt, some of the old guy's he and I now hang out with asked me about making them a belt too. I just charged them the cost of materials + maybe a cup of coffee at the little store where we hang out. Well this other fellow saw their belts and asked about one for him so I said alright, he asks how much, so I say about 20 or 25 bucks and a cup of coffee. His face turned red and he said "man I can go to the flea market and get a belt for 10 or 12 dollars", I say go to the market then. He comes back about a month later and says his flea market belt is already broke, so go ahead and make him one. I tell him alright but now it's gonna cost at least $50. He gets red in the face again and ask me why, so I say before I was gonna give him the same deal as the rest but not now. Moral is some, probably most people want a deal plus the don't know what it takes to make what they want so they don't appreciate the difference it takes to make a one of a kind item versus the millions of machine made. A lot said, probably to say nothing, but if you could ever figure people out you would have a better chance to set the right price. Later, Billy P

Hi Billy, Your point is so true in the majority of cases. I can't and won't try to compete with that sort of pricing, nor that type of mentality; I can't! I was talking to a fella I know who makes belts for a local western tack store in the area, and he told me that he makes belts on order from the store's customers. He uses an embosser, no edging, no lining or stitching, and sells them for $16.00. The store gets 10% of that. I guess that's just the way it is, and I need to stop trying to compete in the belt making end of the business. Thanks for you input. Edited June 13, 2010 by mike59

[Suze]

don't let the ones that make cheap stuff -- cheaply -- win

I like your work. maybe you just have not found the right market for it yet.

it is hard to fight the Wal-mart mentality anymore. I can get it cheaper there is not a good line to hear.

and there is my two pennies worth.

wonder how long that $16.00 belt will last?

I saw a belt made by Al Stolman the other week -- been heavily worn for about 30 years. And showed that it was loved. but you could still see his signature and most of the carving (and his little black skunk)

Don't give up

[hidepounder]

Without seeing one of those belts, it's hard to answer your question. 40 hours is LOT of time on a belt. It's certainly not impossible....I have a pattern with dime size flowers that takes me a very long time to tool and if I have to dye the background and add a laced edge it will easily exceed $1500 (without silver). But that is a pretty extreme example. If you are spending 40 hours on a belt, it better be a pretty intricate pattern. My belts start at $400 (without silver) and go up from there....most selling in the $600 range. I would hazard that a lot of toolers would consider my patterns are pretty slow/difficult to tool.

I don't charge for drawing a pattern. It's my pattern and if it is any good I will be using it again. Heaven help me if the customer who paid for the pattern ever meets the second customer I tooled that pattern for and they begin discussing what they paid! It really isn't fair. The other thing that I personally think is really important, is to recognize what skill level you are at and charge accordingly. Also, I personally try to determine how much time it SHOULD take to tool a pattern after I've done it a few times and charge accordingly. I do not charge what it costs me the first time....I don't feel that it is honorable to charge the customer for my learning experience. In my mind, you offer a belt (with a tooled pattern) for a certain price and the customers agrees to pay you. It is assumed that you already have a selection of patterns for the customer to choose from. Others may not agree with this, but that is my approach.

It is certainly imperative to know what your market will bear. If you are competeing with the swap meet vendors like Billy mentioned, you probably aren't going to sell many belts that take 40 hours to make. As a matter of fact, a belt that trully takes 40 hours to make is in the Peter Main category and should be of that quality so that should give you some means to evaluate yourself.

We all suffer from crafters underselling their products but it is just a fact of life. They make it difficult for a legitamate maker to get paid. However, if you charge what you feel is appropriate for your product and your customers are paying you, then you are probably where you need to be from a price standpoint.

Just some random thoughts.....

Bobby

[TimDreamer]

It's hard to argue with anything Mr. Parks says. Every time I look at his creations I end up drooling. Of course, 99.99 % of the toolers on here are better than I am, although I can do a fairly decent basketweave pattern.

Mike, please don't stop doing what you are doing. I've looked at your website and am amazed. I would encourage you to continue with leathercrafting each and every piece you want to do.

I understand that you need to keep your business afloat and want to produce things that are worth your time and that will sell. However, sometimes you just need to do something for the love of it. I can see by the effort you put into your pieces that you love the making of it.

All of ya'll are an inspiration to those of us who want to try to achieve at this art.

[mike59]

Without seeing one of those belts, it's hard to answer your question. 40 hours is LOT of time on a belt. It's certainly not impossible....I have a pattern with dime size flowers that takes me a very long time to tool and if I have to dye the background and add a laced edge it will easily exceed $1500 (without silver). But that is a pretty extreme example. If you are spending 40 hours on a belt, it better be a pretty intricate pattern. My belts start at $400 (without silver) and go up from there....most selling in the $600 range. I would hazard that a lot of toolers would consider my patterns are pretty slow/difficult to tool.

I don't charge for drawing a pattern. It's my pattern and if it is any good I will be using it again. Heaven help me if the customer who paid for the pattern ever meets the second customer I tooled that pattern for and they begin discussing what they paid! It really isn't fair. The other thing that I personally think is really important, is to recognize what skill level you are at and charge accordingly. Also, I personally try to determine how much time it SHOULD take to tool a pattern after I've done it a few times and charge accordingly. I do not charge what it costs me the first time....I don't feel that it is honorable to charge the customer for my learning experience. In my mind, you offer a belt (with a tooled pattern) for a certain price and the customers agrees to pay you. It is assumed that you already have a selection of patterns for the customer to choose from. Others may not agree with this, but that is my approach.

It is certainly imperative to know what your market will bear. If you are competeing with the swap meet vendors like Billy mentioned, you probably aren't going to sell many belts that take 40 hours to make. As a matter of fact, a belt that trully takes 40 hours to make is in the Peter Main category and should be of that quality so that should give you some means to evaluate yourself.

We all suffer from crafters underselling their products but it is just a fact of life. They make it difficult for a legitamate maker to get paid. However, if you charge what you feel is appropriate for your product and your customers are paying you, then you are probably where you need to be from a price standpoint.

Just some random thoughts.....

Bobby

Thanks for your input Bobby. As far as charging a customer for the pattern creation, on this 40hr. belt I feel that I am correct in charging for my time as it was a custom commission piece which the customer requested that it be his only. He gets the pattern, and it will not be duplicated on any other of my offerings. Therefore, I must charge for my time. As far as the quality of my work in comparison to yourself, or Peter Main, I don't feel that I am in this league. As a result I am faced with the assumption that my time is not as valuable as I had hoped and must decide whether to work cheaper, get faster without error, or end any commission work. The end result of that particular belt was that after the time spent, and following continued request to darken the center portion, which destroyed the detail, I wound up scrapping the belt, which was a sixty inch, 1 5/16 inch tapered to 1 1/2 on each end to accept his buckle set. The carving is 36 pin-oak leaves veined, undercut and lifted, with detail cuts, latigo lined and stitched.

The truth of it is, I didn't really care much for the pattern anyway, but I'm not the customer. i have made a second belt for him, but don't know if it will suit him or not....we'll see. Thanks for you insight.

Mike

[mike59]

It's hard to argue with anything Mr. Parks says. Every time I look at his creations I end up drooling. Of course, 99.99 % of the toolers on here are better than I am, although I can do a fairly decent basketweave pattern.

Mike, please don't stop doing what you are doing. I've looked at your website and am amazed. I would encourage you to continue with leathercrafting each and every piece you want to do.

I understand that you need to keep your business afloat and want to produce things that are worth your time and that will sell. However, sometimes you just need to do something for the love of it. I can see by the effort you put into your pieces that you love the making of it.

All of ya'll are an inspiration to those of us who want to try to achieve at this art.

Thank You Tim,

Your thoughts are nice to hear.

[hidepounder]

I guess that's just the way it is, and I need to stop trying to compete in the belt making end of the business. Thanks for you input.

Mike,

I completely understand and share your frustration but don't throw in the towel. Based on what you've told us I think you are trying to compete in the wrong market. Custom work isn't supposed to compete with mass production retail and those buyers either can't afford custom work or can't tell the difference and don't care. I think I hear that you are very concerned about quality. I like that and have always believed that there was a market for the high end products. I think that if high end leather work is what you want to produce, you simply need to get your wares in front of the folks who can afford them. Of course that's the real trick and it takes someone far more successful than myself to explain how to do that. I'll be anxiously waiting for that post as I'd like to learn myself!

Bobby

[hidepounder]

I feel that I am correct in charging for my time as it was a custom commission piece which the customer requested that it be his only. He gets the pattern, and it will not be duplicated on any other of my offerings. Therefore, I must charge for my time.

I absolutely agree...in that scenario it is defintely appropriate to charge for your time to draw the tooling pattern!

In general charging for drawing time is always difficult for me to figure. I am not very good at sitting down and cranking out a new pattern. It is something I struggle with and spend a LOT of time on. I have been known to spend a couple of days trying to work out a pattern for a rope bag or daily planner. I think I take considerably longer than most artists because drawing does not come easily for me. So when I'm charging my customer for a pattern I always ask myself how much time would a professional take to draw this pattern and that is what I'll base my time on. I feel that if my customer is paying for a professionally made product, I need to charge like a professional. To me that means I should charge appropriately for both my strengths and weaknesses. If the competition at my level is, in general, charging for 4 hours of design time, how can I justify the 16 hours it actually took me? (assuming we are comparing apples to apples) As time goes on I get faster, both with my drawing and with my tooling and that helps increase the hourly rate. Conversely if I am able to accomplish some task better than my competiton does, than I get to reap the benefits! So that is one way I look at pricing and there are probably a lot of folks who will strongly disagree with me, LOL!

Hope this helps...

Bobby

[Handstitched]

After reading some of the posts, I think I'm under charging, however I can't put the price up too much as I simply wouldn't sell a thing.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40990121@N05/4626429309/

I sold this rose carved belt for $60.00 Aust. ( some people baulk at that price...or try to knock me down)

Just bear in mind , that I am still a learner , but this belt to fit 38" (97cm) waist was made using 3.8-4.0mm veg tan ( everything is in millimetres down here...not ounces) , with nic hardware.

If that was to be handstitched, it would be sold for approx $80.00

Perhaps I should start charging more,( our tax time is coming up (June 30) , so I might be 'reviewing' ALL my prices, but I may run the risk of not selling any belts at all.

All the best,

HS

[David Genadek]

I have attached a picture of some belts that were part of a line that I did for a store called Billy Martin's in New York. None of these belts took me more than an hour and 15 minutes to carve. I used to figure 20 minutes for doing the rest of the construction of the belt. So I would figure about two hours of time. Now these belts would not win in a carving competition but they were about making a living not winning a competition. So to price a belt like this I would take my time in this case two hours and say I want to make $15.00 an hour for my labor or I want to pay somebody else $15.00 an hour for labor, that would mean my labor costs would be roughly $30. I would then add my material cost of roughly $10.00 and double that to $20.00. So now I am $50.00 and have added just a tad of profit on my materials. So now I need to figure my profit. Viable businesses generally will have a minimum gross profit of two and one half times their labor costs if I take 30x2.5 I end up with $75 then add the $50.00 and you end up with $125 for your asking price. In this case I was wholesaling the belts that store would at least double the price so $250.00 is a fair and reasonable price. However, fair and reasonable will be determined by the market you are in.

David Genadek

[Mongo]

Mike,

I make holsters and gun belts for cowboy action shooters. My gun belts are 8-9oz with a 4-5oz lining. For a plain or a simple border stamped 2 ½ ranger style belt I charge $145 dollars. If you want a more elaborate design, or conchos, the price goes up. I haven’t carved anything in years. I can’t keep up with demand now (working on leather part time).

If I carved as well as Bob Park does, I could charge hundreds more and easily sell it. I think Bob is correct. You are “casting pearls before swine”. I feel with the quality of your carving, if you set up as a vender at some big SASS cowboy action shooting event, you would have no problem selling your work for what it’s worth. Cowboy shooters have plenty of money and they don’t mind spending it.

[DaltonMasterson]

Mongo is correct, cowboy shooters do drop the bucks.

I also sell gunbelts, but mine are unlined basic straight belts. I get 80 for a 2 1/2" Ranger belt, with a border stamping and no loops. Everything is handsewn, but there is not much to sew on these. I always have at least 1 standing order for a gunbelt in this fashion, usually with a few loops added, or spots. These extras cost more of course.

I was charging 40 for them, and wasnt selling them. When I finally sat down and figured things out, I doubled my prices, and things really picked up. I can make one of these in the equivalent time of 1 night, if you dont count dyeing, topcoats, and edging time, which goes on for several days after assembly. I say equivalent time as I have an 11 mo old boy and full time job/other things to contend with.

So, if you base the time that it takes you to carve, and make the beautiful things you do, on the unlined straps of decorated leather I am making, you should be able to price accordingly.

Also, your location might hurt your high end sales as well. If I tried to sell a belt in the middle of Nebraska for 100.00, I would be laughed away. The clientele is not here for that sort of item. You might need to be in a more upscale location, catering to the people with money burning holes in their clothes.

Good luck, and nice belts.

DM