Wanted : King,beard Or Any Other Good Tools

[pinkchaps]

i am wanting to buy tooling tools. i am only looking for "good" i am not interested in Tandy tools. i am not wanting to "resale" them i want to use them. thanks!

[King's X]

Those tools pretty much hold their value....you are probably better off getting them directly from the makers....I would stay off eBay unless you know their value.....cuz you could end up paying more than they are worth~

Good luck!

[chazdillon]

I have some tools. Email me your number and I'll call u and send pics. Thanks

Chazdillon@aol.com

[Spinner]

Don't forget to check out some of the LW folks on Facebook. Clay Miller has been making some really nice tools and posting them there (his website is still in process). The quality is great and he can custom make certain shapes you're looking for. His prices are also very competitive.

Chris

[hidepounder]

Those tools pretty much hold their value....you are probably better off getting them directly from the makers....I would stay off eBay unless you know their value.....cuz you could end up paying more than they are worth~

Good luck!

King's right! Be careful on eBay. Last year a $9 Hidecrafter border tool was selling for over $100......repeatedly, LOL!

Bobby

[LilRay]

King's right! Be careful on eBay. Last year a $9 Hidecrafter border tool was selling for over $100......repeatedly, LOL!

Bobby

Good grief!

Google is your friend. Some folks need to learn to Say hello before they spend money.

ROFL!

God Bless, Ray

[WyomingSlick]

King's right! Be careful on eBay. Last year a $9 Hidecrafter border tool was selling for over $100......repeatedly, LOL!

Bobby

I think Bob is referring to the meander border tool which I saw sell for 78 and change, the next week someone paid 48 for one and the next week - one brought a price still up in the thirties. I think it was a case of over enthusiastic newbies who didn't know the market. It is also true that I have seen Barry King stamps go for more on eBay then they cost direct from him. You can get some great buys on eBay, BUT, like the man says: you have to know what you are buying. Until you do know, you need to take what the seller says with a grain of salt. For instance, there is a seller on Ebay who infers,(((( notice that I said "infers" and not "states" ))))), that many of the older steel non-plated and unmarked stamps that he sells are McMillen stamps. It really isn't dishonest of him since they might be McMillens, but it is also possible that they were made by someone else.

Ray is right - google a bit before you go to eBay and see what the prices are from today's makers and get some current catalogs from TLF and Hidecrafter.

[bruce johnson]

You kind of brought up something that a few of us have questions about. A lot of these old stamps (and even some older new maker stamps) can look pretty similar. I had an old guy who had been around think a Jusechke I had was a McMillen or that era. I've got a few CLTs that were mixed in with what look like McMillens too. Kind of the standard answer from most guys seems to be that McMillen had the most patterns of stamps and likely sold the most volume. Odds are if it looks like a McMillen, it probably is. I know some of the makers in the southwest learned from or compared to each other so they can be really similar. I guess those are probably the ones that have the most confusion between them. Is there any real definite ways to tell let's say an Eberle from an unmarked McMillen from some of the other makers? You hear about knurling, ends, shank length, shank diameter, and the the old "once you have seen a few, then you know". Any thoughts?

[CWR]

Are McMillen's still in business? I got some Bissonetts and French Edgers from them a few years back and was real pleased with them for the money. They had a few things in their catalog you just don't see anywhere else, unless Bruce has them on his site then they always sell before I can get my pennies scraped together.

CW

Edited July 6, 2011 by CWR

[gtwister09]

Wyoming Slick,

I am fortunate over the years to gather up several different makers brands of tools (all these mentioned as well as some others like Hackbarth, Wootres, Smith and others) including hand made ones from nails that were made by Ray Pohja for Bob Dellis. Anyhow a couple of statements in this thread piqued my interest.

(1) Question from you concerning someone's inference of McMillan tools and

(2) Answers to Bruce's questions below that ties to answering #1. " Is there any real definite ways to tell let's say an Eberle from an unmarked McMillen from some of the other makers? You hear about knurling, ends, shank length, shank diameter, and the the old "once you have seen a few, then you know". Any thoughts?"

My Eberle's have two different markings on them and another one of them has no marking whatsoever but I know this unmarked one came from him because Bob Dellis showed me his receipts for them. So I would certainly love to hear just like I know Bruce would what you consider to be Eberle characteristics, McMillan characteristics and so forth. Any additional thoughts on it as well would be appreciated. It helps to know all viewpoints on these while you are hunting [collecting] tools.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Regards,

Ben

[hidepounder]

Terrific thread! I have a number of unmarked tools that I would like to be able to identify. Some were sold to me as McMillans from a reputable source, but most of the others I have not idea. Like Ben, I have may that are nails which I accumulated in the late sixties and early seventies. I doubt I'll ever be able to identify their makers, but the knurled tools I'd like to know more about.

Bobby

[WyomingSlick]

Wyoming Slick,

I am fortunate over the years to gather up several different makers brands of tools (all these mentioned as well as some others like Hackbarth, Wootres, Smith and others) including hand made ones from nails that were made by Ray Pohja for Bob Dellis. Anyhow a couple of statements in this thread piqued my interest.

(1) Question from you concerning someone's inference of McMillan tools and

(2) Answers to Bruce's questions below that ties to answering #1. " Is there any real definite ways to tell let's say an Eberle from an unmarked McMillen from some of the other makers? You hear about knurling, ends, shank length, shank diameter, and the the old "once you have seen a few, then you know". Any thoughts?"

My Eberle's have two different markings on them and another one of them has no marking whatsoever but I know this unmarked one came from him because Bob Dellis showed me his receipts for them. So I would certainly love to hear just like I know Bruce would what you consider to be Eberle characteristics, McMillan characteristics and so forth. Any additional thoughts on it as well would be appreciated. It helps to know all viewpoints on these while you are hunting [collecting] tools.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Regards,

Ben

Whew!!! I am probably more in the dark than many of you on this subject. I have been primarily interested in collecting Craftools (CT) over the last fifteen years. If you have a question about older CTs then I am likely as good a source as any. Along the way I have collected some 30+ Cal-Carved and over 160 RBS stamps also. And some real jewels - vintage Ray Hackbarths stamps!

And then there are the other stamps. Some 150+ of them with no identifying name. In this group there are some that will look like they were probably made by the same maker. If you place them next to one another, the tool shafts will match - same length, knurling, shaft taper, etc. There is one group that seems to be made of 2 differant metals in that the head is not magnetic while the shaft are. These are suppposebly made with a brass head swedged to a steel shaft, and then the whole thing plated with chromium. These have been identified as tools sold by Apache Leather Company in Phoenix,AZ. Then there is a group that are much like Craftools, except the striking end is very rounded, the finish is more of a satin chrome, and few of them are necked down below the head. And so on.........

The fact of the matter is that there were many toolmakers around who did not mark their tool with their name. Quite a few of the saddlemakers made some of their own tools since it doesn't take to much in the way of special tools or talent to turn a large nail or bolt into a beveler or a shader. Some of the more talented made tools for others. I very much doubt that Frank Eberle was the only one of these who used large nails or spikes to make stamps with; so identifying his tools by that factor alone is really not conclusive. When it comes to knurled shaft stamps, this also applies. During World War II, there were many, many thousands of men who were trained as machinists. After the war ended and as the demand for them lessened, I am sure that many of them were looking around for a way to make a buck.

The late forties was when Craftool and Cal-Carved were established. In the early days of Craftool, Dick McGahen used differant machinists to make his tools; this is why you will see differances in the very early CTs. Later on, it would seem than Oliver Sturdy, who had his brother, "Bill" and other men working for him, would be responsible for the majority of Craftool production. After McGahen's death, Tandy bought out the Craftool operation; including the Sturdy shop. Oliver and Bill moved to Fort Worth with Tandy in the early Sixties where Oliver was head of the tool division for many years.

Getting back to the Los Angeles area in the late 40s and 50s, there was a swelling of popularity in leathercrafting. This was fueled primarily by the entertainment business as this was the Golden Age of Westerns. The other factor was that leathercrafting was being taught on hundreds of military bases around the world. In fact, that is how I came to it; my dad was introduced to it when he was stationed in California in the early fifties. Among his tools were several that were not Craftools; rather they were made by an Army buddy who worked in the base machine shop. So how many machinists were producing tools in those years??? How about today?? Who made these stainless steel stamps?

I believe that unless you can trace the history of an unmarked stamp, or it a rather unique type that is known to have only been made by one maker ---you are going to have a hard time proving who made what. For example, I have heard several folks relate that Ellis Barnes made tools that were shorter than Craftools. I have two stamps that he made back in the fifties that were definately made by him as he used the Cal-Carved numbers, but they have "Barnes" on them instead of Cal-Carved. They measure 4 3/16" long. I can show you hundreds of Craftools from that same era that are also 4 3/16' long. I have seen groups of tools that are supposed to be all McMillens; yet there are differances in the knurling; length of knurling, some are stepped down at the end of the knurling while some are not, some finer, some coarser, and so on. Example below - McMillens on the left , unknown on the right. See the differance????

So if someone says to me that a tool is a McMillen "because once you've seen a few, you can tell........" , I am going to take it with a grain of salt unless I can see that it is one of the unique stamps that only they made.

I would be super interested, as would many others, in seeing good pictures of any of the old timers that you all have, hopefully good pics showing the faces and the shafts in detail. The Ray Pohja made tools would be a treat for sure. Perhaps with enough pics of positively identified tools, we might be able to reach some solid conclusions about the makers work.

[Shelly]

Hi,

Just now listed a 3/4" Walt Fay Veiner on Ebay, and three Don King Edgers, all acquired by me personally from these men, in 1996. Unfortunately, two of the edgers Don sent weren't stamped with his name...they came from his personal bench, and I suppose he forgot to do that, since he was using them himself. Anyway, I can vouch for the fact that he sent them to me, and would sign any documentation to that statement. I'm sure most anyone that knows Dons tools will recognize them for his, regardless. Don't know if you are still looking - these are all that I have left to offer up.

Thanks,

Shelly

[LakeHavasuLeather]

On 7/12/2011 at 6:21 PM, WyomingSlick said:

And then there are the other stamps. Some 150+ of them with no identifying name. In this group there are some that will look like they were probably made by the same maker. If you place them next to one another, the tool shafts will match - same length, knurling, shaft taper, etc. There is one group that seems to be made of 2 differant metals in that the head is not magnetic while the shaft are. These are suppposebly made with a brass head swedged to a steel shaft, and then the whole thing plated with chromium. These have been identified as tools sold by Apache Leather Company in Phoenix,AZ.

Hello SIr, I am looking for any information, or pictures you have of "Apache Leather Company", Tooling stamps.

I have started a Facebook group called, "Leather Tools History".  Please stop by, if you are on Facebook.

Thank you,

John

[MTG Leather]

I'm selling 33 Barry King Stamps and a Barry King Swivel. 14 stamps are brand new, rest are perfect, used about a year. Comes in handmade wood storage box with antler handle, just a little bonus. $1020 shipped

Lots of Geometrics, Border also background, bevelers more

 

[ChasCS]

On July 9, 2011 at 2:24 PM, gtwister09 said:

Wyoming Slick,

I am fortunate over the years to gather up several different makers brands of tools (all these mentioned as well as some others like Hackbarth, Wootres, Smith and others) including hand made ones from nails that were made by Ray Pohja for Bob Dellis. Anyhow a couple of statements in this thread piqued my interest.

(1) Question from you concerning someone's inference of McMillan tools and

(2) Answers to Bruce's questions below that ties to answering #1. " Is there any real definite ways to tell let's say an Eberle from an unmarked McMillen from some of the other makers? You hear about knurling, ends, shank length, shank diameter, and the the old "once you have seen a few, then you know". Any thoughts?"

My Eberle's have two different markings on them and another one of them has no marking whatsoever but I know this unmarked one came from him because Bob Dellis showed me his receipts for them. So I would certainly love to hear just like I know Bruce would what you consider to be Eberle characteristics, McMillan characteristics and so forth. Any additional thoughts on it as well would be appreciated. It helps to know all viewpoints on these while you are hunting [collecting] tools.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Regards,

Ben

Hello Ben,

Since you had mentioned Ray Pohja, I had read this short article about him, and thought you might enjoy reading it as well.

The post showing the Ray Pohja belt, found in a thrift store, was what got my attention about him.

How I Remember Ray Pohja By Tad S Mizwa Much like young Ray Pohja entering the Porter saddle shop and meeting Lowell Jett who gave him encouragement, Ray became my Lowell Jett and much more...over a 63 year friendship. I too snuck into the Porter shop, drawn to the tap-tap-tap from the stamping benches. There sat Ray, munching an apple at lunchtime, studying a saddle skirt flower pattern he'd just cut. I was 19 years old, green as grass, but I could see that Ray, just 24 himself, was the best one there. One Saturday morning, Ray cut an all-knife scroll design and gave it to me to study. I used that same design on two black belts I made 50 years later, for then-Governor and Mrs George W Bush. The President referred to this as his lucky belt. Photo: Ray Pohja, left, and Rex Allen, right. Ray stamped a saddle for Rex while working for San Fernando Saddlery. Photo courtesy of Tad Mizwah. When I had a tiny Western store/saddlery in Houston, Ray made belts plus three saddles for me to sell. More than that, I would write to him asking how this or that procedure was done. He wrote detailed instructions-dozens and dozens of letters, sketches, design rub-offs and flower tapoffs. Ray sold me dozens of stamping tools and tips on how to use them. Some years ago, Ray lent me his sketch-book of design ideas, for me to study. Some of these were so complicated, with cross-overs, cross-unders and inter-locking elements, that my eyes could scarcely follow the zigging and zagging. It was like following the movements of a bowl of spaghetti. Yet the major design elements, the flowers and the large leaves were very much balanced. Ray had an uncanny ability to SEE A DESIGN AS A WHOLE, in its entirety, a startling gift if there ever was one. So long, Ray. I will always be grateful for the ways that you inspired my leatherwork and for your friendship all these years.               Tad S Mizwa Leona, Texas  TadSMizwa@aol.com Thanks for your input and participation on the forum. I am relatively new here, and look forward to learning, sharing, and being a small part of the community. Chas