Head Knife....i Want To Make One

[switzforge]

Tempering is easy , so if hammering them out really.

Well, I would aggree tempering is easy. But proper heat treating - annealing, hardening and tempering all for a specific but unkown steel - may be a bit more than most home craftsmen are willing tackle. A round knife seems like a fairly easy shape to warp or heat unevenly with the tools available to most folks. But I think I will take on the chalange in the next few weeks. I will try one cut and ground out of a circualr saw blade with no change in the existing heat treat. I will make another from a saw mill size band saw blade (I have a bunch of that 0.10 thick L6?). This second knife I will try to get back on the proccess of testing for propper heat treating parameters and then how the two compare. Sounds like fun.

[TwinOaks]

If I recall correctly, L6 can be hardened with water, but i've found that it oxidizes quickly. My very first attempt at making a blade was with (I think L6) a circle saw blade, and though it hardened and tempered well, it requires a coat of oil on it to prevent rapid rusting....and neither rust nor an oily blade is acceptable for leather work.

[prc77ro]

All the more reason NOT to use any of the 10 series carbon steels, they will rust in the air so imagine what will happent to the blade, the actual cutting edge going through tanned leather. You'd be better of with a good stainless like 440C. TwinOaks, you'd be better off using O-1 as L6 has no corrosion resistance so it will rust and has very low wear resistance.

[switzforge]

Boy you guys must live in a wet part of the world. I have made several knives from these old saw blades with good results and no rust. But then again Colorado is pretty dry. I am pretty sure that all of the great old tools people are seeking out were made before steels got high tech and that means basically simple 10XX tupe carbon steels. I'm not a metalurgical historian, but thats my guess.

The band saw blades may not actually be L6, but other knife makers speculate that they are. And that is the reason it is always important to do hardening and tempering tests on scrap before trying to make a good tool. All part of the fun of using junk yard steels.

As for 440C, I personally avoid stainless, I have always thought it made an inferior cutting edge. If you can't avoid moisture or simply don't tend to care for your tools, then it is a good choice. Personally I am more concerned with a good sharp edge that tends to stay sharp but is easy to sharpen when needed. I find that 10XX, 5160, W1 & O1 are all good knife steels as is the old sawmill blade stock (whatever it may be) for thinner knives.

Anyone know what the top brands of new knives are using for their steel?

[prc77ro]

I think that all depends on what you consider "top brands". Are you refering to name brands such as Tops, Benchmade and KA-Bar? or custom makers like Emerson and Jay Fisher. the name brands us many different types, usually dependant on what the popular type of steel is eg. AUS8, 145CM etc. I know Emerson uses 154CM or even the more expensive CPM154CM for his custom knives starting over $1000.00. Jay Fisher mainly uses 440C does all the millwork, heat treating, tempering and annealing himself but will use other metals at buyers requests depending on their requirements. Both make knives for Special operators such as the SEALS and Para Rescueman as well as for law enforcement. Some of the top name brand companies that I mentioned before use different steels, Benchmade is using alot of 154CM for their police/military autos and some of the linerlocks, Tops uses primarly 1080 and i know that KA-Bar used to use 1080 but I think they are now using 420 which is really soft, maybe 52RC.

[prc77ro]

One more thing I forgot, I'm not an expert in metalurgy but I do know that the type of grind of the blade, hollow, taper, convex or flat, is one of the factors in ease of sharpening a blade as well as the actual steel its self.

[switzforge]

Actually I was thinking along the lines of the original thread which has to do with head knives. So the question is what are the old Rose or Gomph knives made from and what are the new Dixon or Osborne knives made from. There are probably a lot more makers out there. It would be great to here from the better users on what knives work the best and whether they are carbon or stainless. We will probably never know the exact steel as most manufactures of comercial products like to keeo that to themselves.

[switzforge]

Actually it looks like this isn't the first time steel choices have been discused

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=44196

Every one has an opinion and none are wrong, just a matter of personal preference.

Flint knives and bone awls used to work just fine and I'm sure are still used by some to do good work.

[Knipper]

All the more reason NOT to use any of the 10 series carbon steels, they will rust in the air so imagine what will happent to the blade, the actual cutting edge going through tanned leather. You'd be better of with a good stainless like 440C. TwinOaks, you'd be better off using O-1 as L6 has no corrosion resistance so it will rust and has very low wear resistance.

Actually, L6 has tremendous wear resistance. Properly heat treated, its one of the toughest steels on the planet. As to corrosion, if you're cutting wet leather, just wipe it off and dry it before you put it away. Yes, some corrosion might occur along the edge just from ambient humidity, but a good buffing or stropping will fix that. A buffed, mirror finish will go a long way to help prevent corrosion on tool steel. One more thing...I don't buy the theory that a softer blade is better than a harder one. You're just going to spend more time honing. You can heat treat/temper tool steel blades in the upper 50' (RC58-59) with no problem. Just as important is the edge geometry. Too thin and the edge will fracture and too thick, the edge won't cut. There is a sweet spot in between that has to be discovered, but when you do, you can take advantage of a harder blade that will last much much longer and save you a lot of honing time.

My concern is, though saw blades used to be made of L6, I fear those blades may be scarce as the "bean counters" always find a way to make things cheaper, even at the expense of the product's quality. To be sure, call the manufacturer and ask them what steel is used in your saw blade. Then you'll know and will be able to look up the correct heat treating specs for that steel.

I'll also say that without certain power tools, count on a lot of hours to make that head knife blade! Just for fun, keep track and multiply them by your shop rate and see what you come up with. If you're a hobbyist, maybe it doesn't matter to you. Those working leather for a living, are much more conscious of their time.

Terry

Edited March 31, 2013 by Knipper

[Knipper]

Boy you guys must live in a wet part of the world. I have made several knives from these old saw blades with good results and no rust. But then again Colorado is pretty dry. I am pretty sure that all of the great old tools people are seeking out were made before steels got high tech and that means basically simple 10XX tupe carbon steels. I'm not a metalurgical historian, but thats my guess.

The band saw blades may not actually be L6, but other knife makers speculate that they are. And that is the reason it is always important to do hardening and tempering tests on scrap before trying to make a good tool. All part of the fun of using junk yard steels.

As for 440C, I personally avoid stainless, I have always thought it made an inferior cutting edge. If you can't avoid moisture or simply don't tend to care for your tools, then it is a good choice. Personally I am more concerned with a good sharp edge that tends to stay sharp but is easy to sharpen when needed. I find that 10XX, 5160, W1 & O1 are all good knife steels as is the old sawmill blade stock (whatever it may be) for thinner knives.

Anyone know what the top brands of new knives are using for their steel?

Here we go with the stainless myth again!

High carbon stainless steels ( containing 1% or more of carbon) are not inferior at all! Bill Buchmann used 440C for his blades and you won't see many of them for sale on the aftermarket. I personally use ATS-34, which is an excellent grade of cutlery steel, and my customers will attest to its' edge holding ability. Paul Zalasek of Leather Wranglers is using one of the newer stainless "super" steels and his knives cut extremely well and will definitely hold their edge for a long time.

The reason stainless got a bad rep is because certain manufacturers use stainless that has virtually no carbon in it...at least not enough to make the blade hard. The steel they use is NOT intended for cutlery! You're good to cut for about a foot, and then the edge gives out. People buy that crap and think its the same with all stainless...NOT SO! A high carbon stainless blade when properly heat treated and with the right edge geometry will cut and keep cutting. Just make sure you know what kind of stainless is in the blade before you buy! If they won't tell you, don't buy it. If they do tell you, look it up and see what the steel is intended to be used for. (If 440 stainless, there are several grades...it must be 440C if you want a good cutting edge) No such thing as "surgical stainless" etc....that's a marketing ploy....avoid it like the plague.

[switzforge]

Since the original poster wanted to know about making a head knife, I assume he is not a knife maker and probably isn't looking to learn about metallurgy. SO, if you're still paying attention, here is the way I decided to approach the problem in a way most home crafts people could do, with no heat treating.

I selected a little 4" saw blade from a box of garage sale tools. I will not get the blade hot enought to require any additional heat treating.

Start by grinding the teeth off, go slow and keep the blade cool so you don't overheat it and ruin the temper. You also don't want the teeth to wear grooves in your grinder. I did this on a belt grinder (made for this type of work) but you could use a wheel grinder, angle grinder, belt sander. You could even use a sharp file, but filing will be very slow going on the already hardened steel

Once the teeth were removed, I made a paper pattern of the blade. I folded the paper in half first, drew half of the knife blade shape, and cut it out with scissors. When the paper was unfolded, I had a full blade shape with both sides matching.

Then I glued pattern is then glued to the blade.

Following the paper pattern, I cut the shape using a cutoff wheel on an angle grinder. This could be done with a hacksaw and a new very fine blade, but it may wear through several blades. Remember, this is already hardened steel. You could also use a carbide rod saw that fits in a hacksaw frame. The carbide rod saw is meant for cutting ceramic tile and is usually in the tile section of the home store.

The blade is now cut to shape and ready to polish if you choose to do so. Use progressively finer grits of abrasive - 220, 320, 400, 600 - until you get the finish you desire. The easiest way is to lay a flat sheet of sandpaper on a very flat surface (glass is an ideal surface) and just rub the blade back and forth. This will be the loneliest, most boring part of the job. The higher the polish the less likely the blade will rust.

Decide if you need (or want) to drill holes in the blade for pins, to pin it to the handle. My blade had one little hole (a balance hole perhaps) plus the arbor hole. I used these holes since they were already there. Alternatively, you could skip the pins that go through the holes and just rely on epoxy to hold everything together. If you want to pin your blade into the handle but have no existing holes, then you must drill them. Heat the TANG PORTION ONLY with a torch. Don't let the color change move to the cutting edge or you will lose your edge holding ability. Then you can drill the pin holes.

Cut your handle material close to size but leave it a little oversize. Clamp one side to the knife and drill through the hole, then do the same for the other side.

Temporarily pin the two sides together and fasten them however you like. I used tape. Shape-sand and smooth the end where it goes over the blade. It will never be any easier than it is now! This will guarantee that both sides of the handle line up in the finished knife. I am not using a bolster on this knife.

To attach the handle, I used a slow-setting epoxy. Glue and pin one side then the other. The pins guarantee alignment. The arbor hole I chose to use is a little oversized for its pin. Because of that, there is room for the whole thing to shift in the hole. Therefore I needed to make sure the handle is where I want it. Once dry, the epoxy filling the hole will be more than strong enough to keep everything in place once. Clamp it up tight and let it harden. Due to the size of the blade, the tang doesn't reach clear to the end of the handle. The ideal would be to fit the handle so it clamped up tight around the tang and still came together at the end. I chose to simply insert a fiber spacer that was the same thickness as the tang. These spacers are sold in multiple colors by knife suppliers. You could also use some of the cut of blade bits or a thin leather spacer.

That's it for now. The glue I'm using must set for 24 hours. With any luck, I will take the clamps off and finish the handle tomorrow. So far I have spent about 1 1/2 hours with no heat treating to deal with. This method should be well within the grasp of most home shops.

Edited March 31, 2013 by switzforge

[TwinOaks]

Since this is now becoming a tutorial, It will be pinned. If you look for it in the forum section, look at the top of the forum -that's where the pinned topics go.

John, thank you for taking the time to post the pics of your progress. There will be a LOT of members benefitting from this.

[switzforge]

The little round knife is complete and appears to be a functional tool. It cuts and skives. And I haven't even finished putting the edge on it yet. So as a test project to confirm that you can in fact make a tool with common tools and no heat treatment. It still remains to pit the final edge on it and give it a good test run to see if it's a good tool or just so so.

After removing the clamps the handle is shaped by sanding, filing or carving. What ever technique you want will work for the wood and any epoxie squeeze out. A file or belt snder will help when you get doen to the tang portion of the blade.

Sand as fine as you like 220 or 340 grit. This handle is curly maple and is stained with feric nitrate to bring out the figure. The final finish is hand rubbed tongue oil.

Now for the critical analisis. This is a bit light and delicate feeling for my taste. The handle is only 3/8" thick, 3/4" - 1" wide and 4" long. Just making the handle thicker would do wonders for how the tool feels in use. The blade is 3 1/2" tip to tip and about 0.03 thick.

So it is a delicate and precise tool. I'll report back after giving it some more serious work.

There was some concern about saw blades not being hardened though out. This blade tests with a sharp file the same on the edge and on the parts cut from the center, so I am confident it is fully hardened.

I guess I'll try to make a second one from a larged blade and of course at some point I will forge one from tools steel bar stock

[thenrie]

Great thread, thanks much. Answers a lot of questions for me. I have been saving my old blades for just such a purpose. As for the cost/benefit ratio, there are those of us who just get a kick out of making stuff.

I've never tried it, but I have read that a regular kitchen oven will get 1080 steel to the proper 430 degrees or so for heat treating the blade to proper temper. Maybe some of you who actually know could comment on that process.

Switzforge, that little hole in the blade is for inserting a nail or screwdriver to lock the blade in place so you can loosen the spindle nut while changing the blade. Some grinders and saws don't have a locking mechanism.

Edited September 7, 2013 by thenrie

[walter roth]

Hi guys...

I can only bad English, but I have followed the issue leather knife with interest.

I would like to say something about.

I'm sattler for 35 years now, and I needed to in the time now 7 half-moon blade from 20 cm size until they just 10 cm were little.

I have used almost every brand and grinding by hand and with the machine.

I've had married once metallurgical explore some of my knives.

54 to 56 Rockwell hardness, what hardener is are the best has inferior grinding properties, or keeps the cut less well.

the blades are too hard or not the right steel, they get at the likes to grind the bad BREW is to grind away.

This is just for the chrome steel knives case. These have become modern in Europe after the war, but soon disappeared, the Sattler didn't like these knives. I myself have used it and don't like it either.

You are not cut to size and unpleasant to grind.

The old blades were forged under the machines-hammer, and then polished, these are the best to the grind and keep the cut best.

There are also manufacturers the "raw form" forged the knife in a "die".

From the Internet,...)) Industrial production: here one finds knives made with conventional mass production. The blades are die-forged first (raw metal pressed into a are form the or) to mass produce the blade blanks, then passed through a special furnace to be hardened and annealed, tempered or. ((

So have a mold in which the molten Tin was inserted and came under the press.

From walz - steel - sheet made that are bad as the old forged.

as I said, I sure on the 50 of them over longer time ground and used.

the knife by dixon have been bad 30 years ago who were company "Herder" in Germany by "Pick-Ass" so to brittle steel, and that 30 years ago.

I have one still in my arsenal.

The crescents of the other manufacturers are all made from thin sheet metal, they are all bad.

The best are still the Blanchard, we must forget everything andre.

I hardly know the half moon blades in the United States, which are mostly too small to us Europeans.

For the saddlers, old school the good qualities to the grinding are as important as because everything else on a blade, he grinds it under the circumstances every day new.

And just when one his bank stones by hand on the schleifft, is it very quickly once revealed how good they are. Greeting Walter

[klickitat]

What grind do these knives have on them? Flat, Scandi, Convex?

[walter roth]

You will find the description of "Lea-Compound" in my tread page 2 or 3.
http://Leatherworker.NET/forum/index.php?showtopic=49437&page=17
so I'm doing that. http://www.Lea.co.UK/help-and-advice/reference-charts/greaseless-abrasive-compounds.php
greeting
Walter

[StrigaMort]

Great thread, thanks much. Answers a lot of questions for me. I have been saving my old blades for just such a purpose. As for the cost/benefit ratio, there are those of us who just get a kick out of making stuff.

I've never tried it, but I have read that a regular kitchen oven will get 1080 steel to the proper 430 degrees or so for heat treating the blade to proper temper. Maybe some of you who actually know could comment on that process.

Switzforge, that little hole in the blade is for inserting a nail or screwdriver to lock the blade in place so you can loosen the spindle nut while changing the blade. Some grinders and saws don't have a locking mechanism.

A household kitchen oven can indeed temper 1080, or most any steel. That, however, leaves the hardening step out. 1084, 1080, 1075, 1070 etc... steels are usually worked in an annealed state, that is, soft. After grinding away whatever is not what you want to keep (in this case, a head knife) the steel needs to be hardened. The above mentioned steels are great for the home enthusiast because they are easily heat treated. It's worth mentioning that "10xx" series steels numerically higher than 1084 become more difficult to heat treat (ht) without specialized equipment. With eutectoid steels like 1084, the requirement is fairly straight forward for ht. With a very small blade you can use a torch to get the steel hot enough to become non-magnetic (actually using a magnet to check for when this occurs, it'll be bright red hot), then allow the steel to get about two shades of red past non-mag. This is all that is required to get the carbon into solution. Immediately quench in "medium fast" oil, or canola oil is fine. At this point a new file should skate on the freshly hardened steel. If it doesn't most likely you didn't get it hot enough. You can try a few times without damaging the steel. That hard steel now has all kinds of stress in it. The hardening process is not kind! So! It must be tempered. Tempering cuts back on the hardness, increases toughness and relieves some of that pent up stress. It should be done right after the oil quench. THIS is where your oven can come in handy. I'm greatly simplifying all of this, but you aren't creating a super high end custom knife... 400° (f) for two 1 hour cycles in the kitchen oven is fine for tempering.

Hope I haven't been too technical.

Heat treating is a bunch of processes, for stainless, it gets very technical. But ultimately ht is:

Annealing

Normalizing (if you hammer forge, if you just use belt grinders or files to remove steel you can skip this)

Hardening

Quenching

Tempering

If that doesn't answer your question, or adds more, I'll do my best to explain further.

[StrigaMort]

Oh, I should point out that if you need to ht a larger portion of steel than what you can keep at a constant heat using a torch (a head knife, or most any aside from a very small blade falls into this catagory), you'll need a way to evenly heat it. This can be done many ways, but one of the easiest is to build a small forge. I can help with that if need be.

Otherwise, if you don't mind (this hasn't been mentioned), you can always send the blade out for professional ht. Going this route, you can use super high end steels and not have to deal with ht at all. Arguably, the best, most practical way to go about it.

[KWosnig]

Haven't been on for awhile and so I decided to make a couple after reading this.

I had a damaged ten inch table saw blade, round and I made a pattern from info in Stohlmans leathercraft tools.

I just finished cutting the blanks for a head knife and a round knife. Attached a photo of them.

After I finish them, I will make handles out of oak and most likely rivet them on.

I did attempt to flex these pieces, I couldn't get any flex. I did not measure thickness, but I estimate a little over a sixteenth.

Tomorrow I will grind smooth and prep for handles. After handles are on, then I will set bevels and sharpen.

Later.

[KWosnig]

I have the sharpening process to perform on the head knife yet, however this is what I came up with. I used oak for the handle and screws and nuts to attach. Next few will be what it is now.

[KWosnig]

This is what the Head knife looks like now.

[switzforge]

Looks like you've got a good tool there

[KWosnig]

Thanks, I haven't finished sharpening process yet. I wanted to avoid cutting myself while braiding handles, after I finish the head knife handle(about 1/2 way now)I will wrap handles in plastic wrap and tape over that, then proceed with sharpening. I am using a vixen to cut the chamfers, then a three stone process and final stropping, then use it.

I started with some simple handles and then decided I needed better ones. The screws make changing it simpler. I went with a full tang, I thought about just driving a tang into a file handle or something, but I am partial to full tangs.

I have a couple of Japanese bayonets from 60-70 years ago and they were the examples I had in mind.

I am originally from Pueblo. Been in NW since 1972.

[Ole South]

I already had a circular-saw blade head knife roughed out when I first ran into this thread back in '13. I was just beginning my leatherwork adventure and thought $90-150.00 for a blade I'd seldom use was an unwise investment (silly me). So.... armed with pictures of round-knives and ancient brain surgery implements I went rooting around in my tool junk. I emerged with probably one of the first 5 1/4 carbide toothed skill saw blades (note the diamond arbor in the pics), my Grandfather gave me, ever sold (bear in mind I'm a grandpappy myself) more'n 25 years prior.

Like Switz, never expecting this to be more than a utility knife, I carefully roughed out the blade profile (minding the temper) by-guess-and-by-golly with an edge grinder, a bench grinder and finished with a belt and disk sander. More by luck than good planning it turned out almost the same as our beloved Osbornes. Note: the Osborne has a more elliptical curvature whereas the diy has an almost perfect arc.

Version 1.0 got equipped with an Oak handle from a salvaged 1" dowel rod. You'll note the wicked pointy tips. Thinking these would facilitate tight inside curve cuts I thought they would be a good idea.

They are not.

They stick you in the wrist at the most inopportune times.

Version 2.0 corrected this and got a new handle (Rosewood). By this time I had procured and rescued a vintage Osborne and had a better idea of what fit my hand.

The third picture shows the Osborne sbs with my diy saw-blade round knife. The other two.... ummm, edged implements(?!!?) were made with scraps left over from the saw blade. The little skiver is tang-less unfortunately, but it works very well. The weird pocketknife/straight razor looking thing was just for fun. It's dangerous but cuts well, I use it for trimming edges. I may one day re-profile it into a single bevel fold-up skiving knife,

Okay... so how do they work???

Pretty well. The head knife when struck, rings like a chime. It sustains a ring longer than the Osborne ( if that matters).

Holding an edge:

The diy Round blade is a little more robust than the Osborne (both are mol .060" (+/- .001) at the handle but the Osborne tapers to about .046" (+/- .002) at the meat side of the bevel while my diy is .055". Both are convex beveled. The diy is better balanced.

I find I don't sharpen the diy Round as much as the Osborne but do sharpen the little diy skiver (same metal) more than my right handed Al Stohlman English skiver (which has nearly 2.x the cutting edge).

Usage:
I use the diy Round for heavier weight / stiff leather and the Osborne for thinner 2-6oz veg tan and most all the chrome tanned stuff. The Osborne works best when guiding around a template but the diy rocks free-hand thick work.

Net-net... they all hold an edge well and don't lose them when not in use. Considering there has been no heat-treatment applied... I'm very happy with the results. I've ended up with three knives from one worn out circular saw blade that I use as much as my store bought knives.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Ole South