Splitter Or Skiver?

[ShortBBL]

I'd like to know what is recommended for the following needs.

1) I want to be able to take some 7/8 or heavier leather straps and split them down to maybe 4oz to use for making bullet loops on gun belts. (Corect me if that's not a decent way of going about making loops!)

2) I need to be able to make differant size welts for knife sheaths.

3) I would like to be able to make some lap (I think thats the right term) skive's.... I'd be tappering (skiving?) the leather for instance, where I will attach a belt loop to the back of a heavy sheath. Tapered would work best and is what I have seen several makers do.

So... is there a skiver that would work GOOD for all these needs? Am I better off with a splitter?

What Skiver or splitter is a good one to get? What do YOU use and/or prefer?

Thanks a lot for the help!

[bruce johnson]

For one thing to do all of what you probably want a handled splitter. Good ones to looks for are either an old Osborne #84 splitter or one of the new Keystone ones from Campbell-Randall. You can do level splitting with these and lap skives with a little practice.

[ShortBBL]

<br />For one thing to do all of what you probably want a handled splitter. Good ones to looks for are either an old Osborne #84 splitter or one of the new Keystone ones from Campbell-Randall. You can do level splitting with these and lap skives with a little practice.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Thanks Bruce.

If you were to get seperate machines for these operations, would you recommend something differant?

I prefer to buy once...... if two machines is better, then I'd just as soon get it over with!

Thanks again! I'm just learning and this is a super place to do just that!!

[Frank]

Whatever you decide, I would recommend two different things: Make sure you purchase 2 blades for the machine, that way you can put a new one on while you are sharpening or sending the other blade out to be sharpened. The other is purchase a side of leather already split to 4-5 oz for the cartridge loops and possibly hammer tabs or thongs, depending on what type of holsters you might make. This will definitely save the sharpness of the blade. I purchased 4 different sides of English bridle leather consistent with the colors of Veg. Tan that I use for belts and holsters. I had them split by Wickett & Craig, to use strictly for that purpose.

Frank

[bruce johnson]

If I had got a good Osborne #84 to start with, I wouldn't know as much as I do know. I started off with TLF's knock-off version that a manager sold me for probably close to cost on a "I need to cut inventory drastically by the end of this month" deal. An old friend sold me a Landis crank skiver and an American crank splitter. I bought a Chase pattern splitter and it was a dream for a pull through splitter. After that I sold the TLF to a guy who has some machining expertise and he corrected some of the issues with it. Since then I have developed an interest in splitters and have bought and sold several different splitters.

For lap skives I sure like the crank skiver. I have a Landis and it has smooth wheel on top so it doesn't mark the grain of the leather. American has two versions, I think the original version has a milled wheel on top, and the American "B" has the smooth wheel. There is a version that has a wider blade, but mine is the regular 1-3/4" blade and is fine for my needs. There is a skiver on the 3-in-1 and 5-in-1s and they sometimes sell for less than a crank skiver, just watch the feedwheel on top and make sure it is smooth. I like doing longer laps on an old Spittler pattern splitter, it was Osborne's #83 splitter with the plier grip handle.

For splitters, I am torn here. I really like the Chase style splitters. The blades are thinner, there are rollers top and bottom to feed the leather square into the blade, and they are pretty safe. There is no exposed blade in use. I have two bolted down - a 10" Osborne left at an 8 oz setting and a 12" Hansen that I adjust for other thicknesses. There is no dial or setting for splitting, you adjust the top roller position kind of by trial and error. My other favorite splitter is the Krebs style. I have a Randall Krebs style right now I like alot. I think there were three manufacturers of them. Osborne called theirs the "#85". They have top and bottom rollers for good feeding and safety too. The bevel on the blade is pretty good. The real plus is they have a pointer and dial on a drum that sets the height. You can write down a measurement and 6 weeks later go back to that position and split the same. Some guys do laps by moving the setting handle as they pull. I have some other oddities and variations of splitters, but the two Chase styles, the Krebs, and an American crank splitter are my users.

Like I said earlier, either a good #84 or a Keystone should do you fine. They can tightern down to level split or push the handle as you pull for laps. I just went another way because of how I fell into things. I have had a couple #84s since and liked them well enough. The only real problem is sometimes a strap can hit a hard spot or flip up, ride the bevel of the blade, and chop off. I am not a fan of the #86. The blade has no guard and you can't really do a decent lap on it without making a tapered jig to stick under the piece you are skiving. This is my least favorite type of splitter and the only one Osborne sells now.

[ShortBBL]

Thanks again Bruce! Good info there!

Jon

[rawhide1]

Jon

I agree with Bruce. I have a old Osborne #84 and I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's nice to split a piece and then be able to skive it on the same machine. I don't have a lot of room so the least amount of stuff I have to have around the better.

Mike

[KathrynHD]

What about this one?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275030817581?hash=item40091d3b2d:g:ZM8AAOSwyNdhgpwD

Says the spring metal opener  is broken and missing??  for the pliers. Is this fixable? Is it mad to buy an untested machine?  Certainly looks nice. I would want for splitting and skiving

Edited November 18, 2021 by KathrynHD
Punctuation

[KathrynHD]

Another option I am considering is a new #86a....it seems to have addressed the problem of the lap skiving with the addition of the little wheel.  Nigel Armitage does a good review.  I have been asked what I want for Christmas and am thinking if everyone just puts a bit towards instead of buying a gift it brings the cost down a bit.  Some have dissed the new #84 as not as good as the old ones ??  And they seem very expensive here in the UK and from the videos of Nigel Armitage on both the #86a and #84 the 86a seems a little more straighforward to use.    If I could get a good vintage one I would prefer that.

[KathrynHD]

The other which sounds good is the Randall Keystone Splitter.  Very pricey like the new Osborne's but would be a new blade and sounds like it is set up well and going by Bruce Johnston's review  

[jcuk]

On 11/18/2021 at 10:27 AM, KathrynHD said:

What about this one?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275030817581?hash=item40091d3b2d:g:ZM8AAOSwyNdhgpwD

Says the spring metal opener  is broken and missing??  for the pliers. Is this fixable? Is it mad to buy an untested machine?  Certainly looks nice. I would want for splitting and skiving

Maybe a better option for you.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284535536029?hash=item423fa3b99d:g:u6gAAOSwmlhhmANc

JCUK

Edited November 21, 2021 by jcuk

[bruce johnson]

Eleven years and a couple hundred splitters later and I've evolved in thinking from my post above. 

The tutorial page on my website has one on splitters that kind of sums it up - https://brucejohnsonleather.com/tutorials/

In a nutshell. I dont like the pliers grip Spittler pattern splitters as much as I used. A good one is good, a poor one is a lapskiver only in my hands. I was lucky early on and had some good ones. Not so as time went on. If the spring is weak or the pliers have a bit of wear they wont hold the position when released as well. I am way more of a fan of the Osborne #86 than I used to be. Simple design and if you follow the principles - good splitter. I may be in the minority but I don't like the Osborne #86A. The consistency from one to the next is variable. One might allow you to split to 1 oz. the next one might max out with a 1/16" gap between roller and blade. The bolt and nut arrangement on the adjuster can come loose when the nut twists off - LocTite is your friend. OK, I don't like the #86A as much as others, enough said.  Still like the Chase and Krebs patterns a lot, and a good #84 will work for most needs.; 

 

 

[KathrynHD]

12 hours ago, jcuk said:

Maybe a better option for you.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284535536029?hash=item423fa3b99d:g:u6gAAOSwmlhhmANc

JCUK

I spotted this last night and the seller has sent me photos of the blade...I am very tempted.....thanks for your reply...will let you know 

[KathrynHD]

6 hours ago, bruce johnson said:

Eleven years and a couple hundred splitters later and I've evolved in thinking from my post above. 

The tutorial page on my website has one on splitters that kind of sums it up - https://brucejohnsonleather.com/tutorials/

In a nutshell. I dont like the pliers grip Spittler pattern splitters as much as I used. A good one is good, a poor one is a lapskiver only in my hands. I was lucky early on and had some good ones. Not so as time went on. If the spring is weak or the pliers have a bit of wear they wont hold the position when released as well. I am way more of a fan of the Osborne #86 than I used to be. Simple design and if you follow the principles - good splitter. I may be in the minority but I don't like the Osborne #86A. The consistency from one to the next is variable. One might allow you to split to 1 oz. the next one might max out with a 1/16" gap between roller and blade. The bolt and nut arrangement on the adjuster can come loose when the nut twists off - LocTite is your friend. OK, I don't like the #86A as much as others, enough said.  Still like the Chase and Krebs patterns a lot, and a good #84 will work for most needs.; 

 

 

Hi, thank for your reply...I have read through the details on your website of your splitters...you don't mention the Joseph Dixon ones, and I had a post from you before when I was looking at the other Joseph Dixon I think, which I can't find.  I am tempted by the one jcuk mentioned above (which I noticed after I posted yesterday) I haven't seen any chase splitters here for sale and from what you said you cannot skive with these which I would want to do.  I am still learning so can't afford to have two!  Maybe one day.... I have searched for a Krebs one but can only ever find old ads where they sold a while back. Campbell Randall have new ones but haven't responded to my email...may end up being way too expensive with postage and customs  but would be interested to know.  Then this one came up, the Joseph Dixon one and thought mmmm, maybe that's the one!!  So considering that one at the moment.  You confirmed my thoughts on the plier grip one, especially as it said the spring had gone, so have dismissed that one.  Much appreciate all your comments....it's tricky to know when you haven't used any  ..... oh and also do you know if you can get replacement blades for the Joseph Dixon and new rollers?  

Edited November 22, 2021 by KathrynHD
to add another question

[berkan]

hi, 

you need this machine ,

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275031742278

[bruce johnson]

1 hour ago, KathrynHD said:

Hi, thank for your reply...I have read through the details on your website of your splitters...you don't mention the Joseph Dixon ones, and I had a post from you before when I was looking at the other Joseph Dixon I think, which I can't find.  I am tempted by the one jcuk mentioned above (which I noticed after I posted yesterday) I haven't seen any chase splitters here for sale and from what you said you cannot skive with these which I would want to do.  I am still learning so can't afford to have two!  Maybe one day.... I have searched for a Krebs one but can only ever find old ads where they sold a while back. Campbell Randall have new ones but haven't responded to my email...may end up being way too expensive with postage and customs  but would be interested to know.  Then this one came up, the Joseph Dixon one and thought mmmm, maybe that's the one!!  So considering that one at the moment.  You confirmed my thoughts on the plier grip one, especially as it said the spring had gone, so have dismissed that one.  Much appreciate all your comments....it's tricky to know when you haven't used any  ..... oh and also do you know if you can get replacement blades for the Joseph Dixon and new rollers?  

Since Joseph Dixon is no longer in business. It will be hard to get original parts. As far as blades, they are pretty simple and a good bladesmith should be able to make one. Rollers - any machine shop can make those. The Dixons are OK,  not sure how easy they'd be to skive with. They are just not that common in the US although I've got one or two sitting here to be refurbished but don't come across maybe one a year usually. 

[KathrynHD]

6 hours ago, bruce johnson said:

Since Joseph Dixon is no longer in business. It will be hard to get original parts. As far as blades, they are pretty simple and a good bladesmith should be able to make one. Rollers - any machine shop can make those. The Dixons are OK,  not sure how easy they'd be to skive with. They are just not that common in the US although I've got one or two sitting here to be refurbished but don't come across maybe one a year usually. 

Okay, food for thought, thanks for the repy. seems people have their favourites which they learn by trying out all sorts, and different ones suit different people and what they need them for... I suppose at some point I just need to get one and see.  I am reticent as I have made a couple of howlers in buying in the very beginning....a bit taken with the look of old machinery.....    

[KathrynHD]

8 hours ago, berkan said:

hi, 

you need this machine ,

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275031742278

Oh, I have dismissed any of those I have seen thinking they were a cobblers machine.....Just too much for me in cost at the moment, though when I have a minute I will look and see if there are any videos....I have looked at crank handle ones online and thought that would be much easier and not stretch the leather....but they always come more expensive and I haven't proved myself yet to justify.   It does sound a good one from the description but I can't justify spending that at the moment.....it would increase too with shipping and customs.  They add 20% here of the price paid before it can be posted!  Thank you very much for the link... it's another type to look out for.  

[KathrynHD]

I started off with all this as I saw what I thought was a very expensive leather martingale collar online which I would have liked for my dog.  It got me thinking I could make one for him myself!!...I am pretty good at making things sewing and upholstery wise,, self taught and had repaired a couple of collars for my other dogs.  I had no clue at that time what making a good quality dog collar was all about.  I was going to machine stitch the one I made.  I do have a machine capable of stitching but once I started the process of getting some leather (you don't even have a clue at first what to buy for that!)..That then started the interest and maybe I could make more than one!..So I haven't been near a sewing machine (I have 4)  as once I started watching videos and tutorials and reading up, I much prefered the option of hand stitching.  I bought scraps off ebay, a few tools going by recommendations on tutorials or videos recommending what to buy,  but I didn't choose the right leather or some of the right tools initially as I didn't know what thicknesses you use for any of it and didn't have a clue really what the tools were expected to do.   

A few months on and I have got the gist of some of the types of leather and what is good to use, wasted a fair few strips in the process of trying to cut and design a collar....(I struggled to start intially as I was scared to wreck the leather...but thought if I was training it would cost me to train and you can't learn without starting !!) My plan is to make all sorts but I didn't start with the easiest type and think in hindsight I should have.. I have messed about with word (not the ideal thing) designing what I wanted for my dog and creating a template and have made him a padded hound collar and then my son's dog quite a lot different and I have added a tweed insert.....I did scrap a lot of leather trying to perfect the cutting etc etc but I am pleased with the two I have completed...I made an okay job of the first hound collar,  but I messed up on the one part so made another.  So I have actually fully completed only 3! 2 which are good enough!  .... but had a fair bit of practice in the process.......Time is the main issue as it's fitting it in. 

So, I have had a few occasions where it would have really helped to have a splitter when I was trying out what lining to use and if the leather was too thick.  But I can't really feel at this stage I need one, I have managed without, and can keep managing without, but know from what I have done, and watching tutorials where they just 'nip to the splitter to split or skive', that it would be a great benefit to have one.  Also have read many articles where people say they didn't have one, could have managed, but once they acquired one, wouldnt want to be without it.   

I am pleased with my hand stitching on the top but it's not as good on the back, particularly when you use a padded lining but I aim to make really nice collars, wallets (I have made one simple wallet and one card holder....not perfect but I was pleased with the card holder and if I made another it would be better ...my son has bought a few and says it's the best one he has used) 

So I kept checking on ebay for a splitter/skiver. I have wasted money on a couple of old machines with wheels which were not suitable.  The only thing I have tried splitting on is one I bought for about £20 which looked twice the size on the photos and it kind of did the job on a very narrow piece of leather.  It's a funny little thing, kind of quirky,  but it's not up to the job, the blade snapped initially and my husband repaired it.  I really would like to get one which would be okay for the foreseeable future....if I make a success of it.  There is no reason why I shouldn't it's just getting to the point of being confident enough to take orders and I feel I need to make a fair few variations before I do, and become more accomplished and pick up some speed.....so I have a few more to make for friends and family in return for their feedback and they won't mind if they are not perfect. I have ended up mostly now, getting strips of leather as the hides are so expensive and noticed that you pay the same no matter what the thickness so would seem good sense to have a splitter for that and buy the thickest hide.  

Definitely would have been much cheaper to buy the expensive collar for my dog  

Edited November 22, 2021 by KathrynHD
Last line

[Matt S]

10 hours ago, berkan said:

hi, 

you need this machine ,

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275031742278

I don't suppose that your recommendation of a totally inappropriate machine would have anything to do with the fact you happen to be trying to sell that one and that you've been spamming your ebay links around the place since Wednesday? 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Matt S

[Matt S]

Hi @KathrynHD,

Please forgive me if you've mentioned it somewhere and I've missed it, but exactly what sort of leathers are you intending to split/skive, and in what sizes? The sorts of fixed-blade machines you're looking at are a useful tool but certainly not universally useful. In my experience (which admittedly is mostly in cheap ones) they are best used on stiffer leathers like bridle where the leather is resistant to stretching. Like all skiving tools and machines the condition of the blade is absolutely crucial in addition to technique, or else you will get uneven, inaccurate or just plain cut-through splits. Pull-through splitters also tend to need a lot of upper body strength when splitting everything over 2"/5cm wide, irrespective of the blade width. Crankers are a little better, but the ones I've used tend to designed for splitting shoe soling and are rather... cranky when dealing with thinner and softer leathers.

[KathrynHD]

 

38 minutes ago, Matt S said:

Hi @KathrynHD,

Please forgive me if you've mentioned it somewhere and I've missed it, but exactly what sort of leathers are you intending to split/skive, and in what sizes? The sorts of fixed-blade machines you're looking at are a useful tool but certainly not universally useful. In my experience (which admittedly is mostly in cheap ones) they are best used on stiffer leathers like bridle where the leather is resistant to stretching. Like all skiving tools and machines the condition of the blade is absolutely crucial in addition to technique, or else you will get uneven, inaccurate or just plain cut-through splits. Pull-through splitters also tend to need a lot of upper body strength when splitting everything over 2"/5cm wide, irrespective of the blade width. Crankers are a little better, but the ones I've used tend to designed for splitting shoe soling and are rather... cranky when dealing with thinner and softer leathers.

Hi Matt S and thank you for your response.

What I am using at the moment is Veg tanned leather mostly around 2.8mm to 4mm of leather, a few different types including bridle leather. I have found it more economical to buy in long strips rather than buy a hide for now, especially as I am not entirely sure the best options to use and at the trial and error stage.  A wrong hide is a big error!   I have also used pigskin as a liner and nappa leather as padded lining.   My needs for a splitter/skiver in the foreseeable future (providing people want to buy my collars) are around the 2.8 to 4mm (- ish) type of thickness for the face of the collar and 1.0mm-1.5mm for the back or for making card holders and wallets.    What I would like to be able to do is sometimes be able to thin a piece of leather the same as I have used on say, the face of the collar, to be used as the liner, so it matches, yet doesn't make the collar too thick.  It's difficult for instance to get two reds to match of different types.  Mostly what I am using leather which is recommended for belts and will no doubt make belts too as they will be very similar and easier than the collars I am making. 

I have seen when looking at hides that you can buy 3 different thicknesses say 1.5mm; 2-2.4mm, and 3-3.2mm. What seems practical is to buy the thicker hide which you can use for all projects, whereas I would have to buy 2 hides and I may not want to make that many collars in that colour, or in fact sometimes I may want a contrasting colour.   Also, it seems to be an advantage if you have the ability to skive the ends to create a tapered skive rather than doing it by hand with a knife....I have attempted tapered skives with a knife and had some success and do intend to perfect this, but on a belt for instance where they are quite wide and a larger item it would be good to be able to use a machine to do it too.

One of my collars had an insert of tweed so the face had a cut out for that and I wanted to put a finer leather on the back which would  be strong enough to account for the top section being cut out, but stronger than a nappa leather and hold the shape.   Ideally I would like to have used the same colour...2 x the original thickness was too much so if I could thin a piece of the same leather so the overall thickness would be  as I wanted....With the leather's I had available, I used a different colour on the back and dyed the edges to help it look right, which worked out fine, but it wasn't what I wanted to do. 

I would like it to be a bit future proof to still be able to use if I progress on to other things in the future.  I doubt I will ever want to be making shoes, think my limit will be bags and maybe a simple briefcase ,   I also have a couple of watch straps to attempt for my sons...so would see how that went too. I have a hectic time up until Christmas with other work and commitments but will be able to make more set time in the New Year.  It has been very much done in very restricted spare time up to now.    I have seen one tutorial where the maker said once he had bought his splitter/skiver it meant he was using up most of his leather. Inspiring him to make things to use it up.   He uses a hand crank model, I think he says it is a similar design to a Cowboy model from the US. I think similar are $2000 or more, and yet he still was recommending a few little adjustments to it to make it work more efficiently.  That kind of cost is out of the question for me at the moment.  For collars I would need to split up to say 40mm wide, and if I split down thicker leather for wallets maybe a tad more, but my main need at the moment would be for collars. So far the widest part of my one collar was 38mm but I did pad this rather than line it with a flat single piece of leather, so not so essential for that one.    The other collar I made needed a 32mm at the middle point width and that is what I used the pigskin for (It was called Pitsford Saddle Pigskin) but this replaced what I would like to have created from splitting the face of the collar.  May be that unless I spend a lot I cannot cover all those things especially on larger collars or belts.  I know on the bench top Osborne like ones you have to pull quite hard.  I have used this silly little one I have and been able to pull that through, but do understand it can sometimes be quite tough to do.   I imagine the sharper your blade the easier it is. 

So,  are you still awake?    bet you wish you hadn't asked .....or does that help you advise me ?

 

 

[KathrynHD]

On 11/22/2021 at 3:01 AM, bruce johnson said:

Since Joseph Dixon is no longer in business. It will be hard to get original parts. As far as blades, they are pretty simple and a good bladesmith should be able to make one. Rollers - any machine shop can make those. The Dixons are OK,  not sure how easy they'd be to skive with. They are just not that common in the US although I've got one or two sitting here to be refurbished but don't come across maybe one a year usually. 

What is the likelihood of a Krebs machine being available anywhere?  

[berkan]

On 11/22/2021 at 12:55 PM, KathrynHD said:

Oh, I have dismissed any of those I have seen thinking they were a cobblers machine.....Just too much for me in cost at the moment, though when I have a minute I will look and see if there are any videos....I have looked at crank handle ones online and thought that would be much easier and not stretch the leather....but they always come more expensive and I haven't proved myself yet to justify.   It does sound a good one from the description but I can't justify spending that at the moment.....it would increase too with shipping and customs.  They add 20% here of the price paid before it can be posted!  Thank you very much for the link... it's another type to look out for.  

If you want to bid, I will discount the price.
I'm selling all the beautiful tools I love as I'm leaving my workshop and going abroad.

Keep in mind, see you

 

 

[RockyAussie]

On 11/22/2021 at 7:42 PM, KathrynHD said:

Okay, food for thought, thanks for the repy. seems people have their favourites which they learn by trying out all sorts, and different ones suit different people and what they need them for... I suppose at some point I just need to get one and see.  I am reticent as I have made a couple of howlers in buying in the very beginning....a bit taken with the look of old machinery.....    

Like you I think I bought a lot of howlers when I first started off. I bought a roller type for a way lotta money and found that I then needed to become a master at sharpening to get anywhere near to predictable results. That also takes a fair time to do. I have had the boot repair style cutter/skiver and for shoe repairing hard sole leather but not any use for general leather goods making. I would suggest you keep an eye out for a good priced bell skiver. I have band knife splitters but early on I did a lot of my splitting requirements with a bell knife skiver and they have the advantage of being able to be sharpened by the machine within a few seconds normally. I would recommend either a Fortuna or a Fav AV2 machine as my first choices and you can see in this video I did awhile back a little of what I am talking about. There are a few others as well if you check while your there.  They are not hard to resell if you decide to later on.