Picking The Right Saddle Tree For Fat Or Inshape Horse?

[bdt46]

Ross, as someone who has been making saddles for over 40 years, I for one agree with you wholeheartedly! I think there is too much emphasis put on whether a saddle fits correctly or not. I almost exclusively make saddles for working cowboys here in Oklahoma. Most of them ride several different horses with the same saddle. They mostly realize that if properly taken care of, a well made saddle will outlast most horses! I try to make the best quality saddle that can be purchased, and one that will fit a variety of horses. Generally by the use of different thicknesses of pads and blankets, a fit can be made on about any horse. These are not pleasure horses, but ranch horses that are are used to do ranch work. You are right that the majority of horse people do not use a horse or saddle enough to sore one whether a saddle fits or not. If they have a decent quality saddle, then the average person will be fine with its use. Just my opinion!

[GrampaJoel]

ahhhh Ross......

While I can't find anything to disagree with in your post I will add this.

If there were never any conversations to sit around and stew about stuff,,,, we'd all be working way to much.

Joel

[Traveller]

I'm only concerned about soring my horse because my horse refuses to be sored. He bucks when the saddle doesn't fit and who wants that. The one I have him in now isn't perfect - I can tell there are places where it doesn't quite meet "perfect" saddle fit criteria - but he's not bucking or going around tight and stressed. And that, to me, is perfect.

[bdt46]

I'm only concerned about soring my horse because my horse refuses to be sored. He bucks when the saddle doesn't fit and who wants that. The one I have him in now isn't perfect - I can tell there are places where it doesn't quite meet "perfect" saddle fit criteria - but he's not bucking or going around tight and stressed. And that, to me, is perfect.

Traveller, when you say your horse refuses to be sored by bucking when the saddle doesn't fit leads me to believe there is some other problem! Generally if a horse is broke at all, he won't get sore until after a ride with something that hurts him. Especially when you say that the saddle you use now is not a perfect fit. How many different saddles did you have to use before you found one that doesn't bother him? Seems to me like it could have been something sticking out of the bottom of the saddle or pads that caused the discomfort. Many of the factory made saddles have nails and screws in the bottom to hold the skirts in place and these sometimes work out and it is amazing how small a protrusion can cause discomfort to a horse. Just wondering how many saddles it took before you found the "RIGHT ONE"?

[Traveller]

Thanks for your thoughts, bdt46. It would usually take a while before he'd complain (although some got to him right away), and he was often good walking, sometimes good trotting, but cantering would make him nuts if it didn't fit. The last one he launched me out of (it was a couple of saddles ago) actually caused a sore spot behind his whithers (there was a fairly long thread about this a while back, with a lot of good help from members of this forum). The most recent saddle didn't actually sore him but somehow interfered with his movement, and he objected to it, though not to the point of causing me pain, if you know what I mean. So I suppose my earlier post wasn't quite correct - he had been sored by saddles, just not irreparably. He doesn't let it go on long enough for that to happen.

I've had some very good saddles on him, about 7 over the past 5 years, including one handmade saddle. Plus he launched me out of a borrowed and beautifully crafted handmade saddle. He's no snob. Some he objected to rather loudly, others just made him uncomfortable. The current saddle seems to be doing the job, at least for the time being. I don't love it but I do love that he's keeping his back end on an even keel with his whithers, and that's a very good thing indeed.

He's an appaloosa with a halter-bred quarter horse for a sire.

Halter breeding does strange things to a horse's conformation.

[Traveller]

To get back to the original point of the thread, it seems to me that you can never fit a saddle perfectly to a horse, winter or summer weight, paleontologist opinions notwithstanding.

Where are the areas you folks check to see whether a saddle fits? And do you do it with or without the saddle pad?

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

People have become too concerned with how their saddle "fits" horses.... I wish more people would just cinch their horse up and ride him instead of worrying about whether or not they will sore him. I wish that I could tell some of my customers that they never ride enough to sore a horse.

I try to make the best quality saddle that can be purchased, and one that will fit a variety of horses.... You are right that the majority of horse people do not use a horse or saddle enough to sore one whether a saddle fits or not. If they have a decent quality saddle, then the average person will be fine with its use.

FULLY AGREED!! And it is our job as tree and saddle makers to make that best quality saddle that does fit a variety of horses. A lot of our own main customers still build for working cowboys (though we build trees for all sorts of markets), and we know that if our trees work for them in all the variety of riding that they do, it will work for the recreational rider too. But working cowboys, on the whole, have some things the recreational market has lost - knowledge and confidence. Knowledge of how a horse works, how to take care of him well, how to change padding for different back types, what a "good back" on a horse is and how to avoid bad ones, how to decide if a saddle is of "decent quality" or not, how to take care of their gear properly, etc. etc. Confidence in their own ability to determine how to pad a saddle, if a different saddle should be used on this horse or not, if a horse is sore or not, and their ability to deal with a problem if it arises. This is why you rarely hear working cowboys or people who build for them talking about "saddle fit". They KNOW the basics, the tolerance levels, and how to deal with the idiosyncrasies, etc. But the recreational rider, on the whole, has not grown up with this basic knowledge and in today's world looks to "experts" to help them do what is "best" for their horse. This is where the "saddle fit" discussions are occurring - among the recreational riders - and where the "saddle fit" information is coming from - the "experts" who service them. (Some of the information is good and does come from reliable sources, but a lot of it isn't, and how is a lay person supposed to know which is which?) It seems this has come originally from the English market and has slowly been moving over to the Western area, but without differentiating the distinctions between them, and often (as I tried to point out) without the "facts" having any basis in actual fact . People read "experts" on the net and in the books and believe what they say, then come to us as professionals in the industry with all this misinformation in their heads and expect us to fit "the rules". When a potential customer comes with questions about how the saddle you will build them will work for their horse, "just trust me" may not cut it anymore (sometimes with good reason). A lot of customers will just trust us. People who really know horses don't need us to tell them stuff they already know. But for those information seeking customers it is a good thing for us to know what is being promoted, decide which parts of it we agree with and which we don't, and know on what basis we have made those decisions. We also need to be able to explain the basics (position of the saddle on the horse, don't dig in anywhere and distribute the weight over as much surface area as possible after the first two points) in easily understandable terms.

The reasons I (Denise) want to know more is because of an insatiable personal curiosity to know the "actual facts" and frustration with the myths that are becoming more prevalent and more heavily promoted. I post it on here at times to hopefully debunk some of the myths and to help saddle makers know that there IS a foundation for the things we do that may not fit "the rules" - and possibly save a few sales that may otherwise be lost to people who believe some of the myths "the experts" are promoting. I seriously have wondered if it is better just to go out to the shop and glue up some more wood and ignore all the "saddle fit" discussions as well, but the inaccurate information is just getting more and more prevalent and accepted as fact, and unless those of us who do know the "actual facts", either from personal experience or academic knowledge, are willing to say something at appropriate times, I fear the voice of reason will be drowned out in all the confusion.

[GrampaJoel]

Denise

Ya know , young lady.

The more I hear you talk ( read your words) the more I like you.

You seem to me to have a very good head on your shoulders. You know your product and stand your ground when it is being discussed.

You also seem to have a heart of gold when it comes to sharing your knowledge. A sometimes rare thing now days.

Thank you for being here.

Joel

[ASMA]

One of our members informed us of a study done by New Mexico State University. Given that the study looked at three veriables, it is very comprehensive. This is the only study on saddle fit that I have seen. Their results, observations, and conclusions are very interesting and food for thought. The link is below.

Study link

Edited September 26, 2010 by ASMA

[Aggiebraider]

Not to burst your bubble or anything ASMA, but this study has some major flaws in it to say the least. First off, any equine based research that revolves around things like exercise and training can have many sources of error inherent within the project. The first of which is the error associated with rider differences. These can be things like weight, balance, ability (training and riding), what exercises are performed, etc. Now these statements are fairly generalized for all exercise based equine research, and not necessarily associated with this project alone, but I dont really feel like reading through this project again and finding all of the flaws. Denise and I discussed this project ad nauseam one evening and so I will let her weigh in on most of the problems as she has read through it many more times than I have.

The major problem with this project is that it was performed by undergrads. While I am sure they had an advisor that oversaw the project and the experiments that were performed, that doesnt mean it was done correctly. One problem that I (think) remember from reading it was that they basically put one maybe 2 saddles on each horse and took the measurements based on where pressure was alloted over the horses back. The problem with doing it this way is that by doing a survey type study and looking at how one saddle affects that one horse, you have no replication within the study. This basically nullifies any type of statistical analysis that they could have run being as that they didnt look at how multiple saddles affect that one horse. Now I am not saying that they should have just used one horse for the whole study, but they should have limited their pool of horses to say around 20 and looked to see how multiple styles and manufacturers saddles fit that group of horses. While 20 may seem like a few, you can get a fairly good representative sample of the entire population this way. Now the counterpoint argument here is the fact that you should try to make the group all of similar stature and breed (not testing QHs against longer backed TBs or even drafts), and that would represent that subset of horses within the population.

Getting back to the statistics part, they really didnt run the proper stats for this type of study or even any for that matter. Just looking at the means within a group of measurements doesnt tell you exactly whats going on or if those differences in the means are even statistically significant. Significance is the absolutely most important piece of information when it comes to statistics and research for that matter. The other problem that I saw was the fact that this project was done by a group of students in a Marketing Club and was designed to be a research project that could be used by a prospective saddle maker to get a loan for starting a business designed at making properly fitting custom saddles. The idea was a great prospect, but wasnt executed properly in my opinion. This is why the project was never published in a refereed scientific journal such as The Journal of Animal Science, The Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association, etc.

There are other issues associated with this paper, but I really dont feel comfortable going into them without all of the information. I just tried to look at it for the scientific validity alone, and found very little. Proper research is a huge pet pieve of mine, and the major reason why sometimes people (especially saddle makers) are having trouble convincing a customer something that contradicts something they have seen on the internet. Every "expert" can come up with a statement they believe to be true and publish it where people can read it as gospel.

I feel that saddle fit and back pressure is an area of research that is left wide open and could benefit from proper research, but the fundamental needs of research today dictate the difficult nature of doing so. A vast majority of research is done through funding from either private individuals, companies (such as nutrition and supplement companies), and government funding. Government funding usually revolves around problems associated with an entire population or an extremely severe problem such HERDA or Equine Infectious Enemia. Companies in the equine industry will typically only fund research that will make them money (and I dont blame them). This may come in the form of a new feed that could improve the efficiency or production of broodmares or ones that may solve a problem such as Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome. So this leaves private individuals that may have a hugely vested interest into the equine industry and want to solve a problem they themselves are having or one they are passionate about. This funding issue really comes from the fact that no one (to my knowledge) has come up with the money or the want to spend the time and energy involved with running a study designed at fixing this problem mostly likely due to the fact that the problem can be fixed so many different ways (proper padding, changes to trees, proper construction, etc.)

Well its late, and I cant think of anything else to keep my on my soapbox lol. I hope this can help at least a few people look at research in the future as somewhat of a skeptic and really question its validity.

CW

[Billy H]

To GrampaJoel, Rod and Denise and all others who have added to this thread: Thanks it has been a great read!!

Now I would like to add a little to it if I may.

First: I must defend horses that are not mean and lean. My little girl rides a little Icelandic Pony that was born fat and round and will go to her grave fat and round!! My daughter rides that little horse 5 or 6 days a week when school work allows it, and in the summer she and her best friend are 5 or 6 hours a day-- 7 days a week. I tellya watching that fat little pony take off into the sunset with my little girl and her perfect fitting Slick Fork saddle I made her under the Tolt gait is pure poetry in motion. LOL!

Second: As I said earlier in the thread, I think saddle fitting can be made more complicated than needs to be. But I do not fully agree with those who think a ill fitting saddle will not sore a horse even though the average pleasure rider only rides for a short time. I have seen horses sore within 15 minutes of a trail ride and before you know it the rider is on the ground and the horse is crow hoping 20 yards down the trail.

Now I know you folks might come back at me and say that ill fitting and not a perfect fit are not the same thing. I get it.

But what I have not picked out of this thread is over all performance of the horse and rider. Creative padding to me is a accident waiting to happen. The saddle should fit very well in order for that horse to perform well wich in turn helps the rider to perform well. My thought is-- if the saddle does not fit well then both horse and rider are out of balance and it becomes a Domino effect. In the end the horse is slow to learn and the rider becomes discouraged and looses confidence in themselves and their horse. The end result is a dusty saddle and horse used as yard art.

My personal feeling is that everybody who owns a horse should have at least TWO Custom Hand Made saddles for each horse and the different seasons.

I would like to add that this forum is very cool!!!!

I have learned a mountain full, thanks to all you folks. Billy

Edited September 27, 2010 by Billy H

[ASMA]

No bubble burst or parade rained on. All points taken. We were just providing additional information and adding another voice to the conversation. Given the resources in the industry, a definitive study of "saddle fit" is not feasible, as the question is too complex. We agree the there have been "studies" done, but these have been conducted by individuals and companies to support their products or interests and these studies should be questioned. In this case the students that did the study have no dog in the fight.

To summarily dismiss the students study because their methods are seen to be flawed is not fair to these students and if a formal method is required for validity, then a lot of information in this forum should also be summarily dismissed as it is based on opinion and life experience not a formal method. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Even if their study may be flawed, they have done something that no individual, Corporation, Vet College, or University with an Equine Science program has done and made available to the general public to our knowledge. If someone is aware of other studies, please let everyone know and how one can access the study.

Yes, the study was narrow, but given the scope of the question and the complexities, small studies looking at specific variables will hopefully provide building blocks towards answering the question of "saddle fit". In reality we are at ground zero in answering the question of "saddle fit" in a formal or organized way that some are looking for. So, any information is helpful even if it is questionable as sometimes a segment in the questionable info will answer another question. A lot more work and conversation is needed.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I was a youngster then, but; as I remember, it seems to me that this was the subject that was being discussed at the OK Corral when all the fuss started!!!! Dosen't seem as though there is an answer to the question that satisfies every one yet!

Guess it is more of a , "what works for you ?" question. For me, I have always found that if I send my tree maker, a set of templates that accurately represents the horses back and conformation, and trust them to send me a tree that fits that group/type of horse, the results are that when I get the finished tree, it fits. ( the only caviate is that I use good makers like Denise, and others that know their craft) and I have made quite a few saddles now, and yet to have a fit problem with the trees I use. I always check them before I start on the saddle, just in case, but; to date I have never been disappointed.

I have actually had calls back from customers commenting on how much better their horses work with the saddle I made for them, and in one case one woman told me that she was about to sell her horse because he kept going lame after 15 or so minutes of use. She said that she had exhausted a fair some of money trying to have the problem diagnosed by her vet, and also by Mich State Equine Center, and they could not find anything wrong with the horse. Bottom line since I made that saddle for her, he not only stopped going lame, but; she still had the horse, and had me make 2 additional saddles for her niece and sister-in-law. So, with all that said, I guess, that's what works for me. A little common sence goes a long way.

Bob

[BOB BRENNER]

To get back to GrampaJoel’s original post -

Saddle fit is a moving target. Things change. The goal of a saddle maker is to design and build a saddle that will achieve a good fit over time, not at a point in time. One will not have a "100% " fit every time one saddles up. Horses are individuals just like you and I. One horse will hardly any change at all, while another could need a new saddle in a couple of years for various reasons. It is the nature of the beast and we have no control in the matter. If saddle fit is a deal breaker, then would suggest that an experienced saddle maker will fit the bill.

In arriving at a good saddle fit one has (as I see it) basically three main variables [ horse - saddle - rider ] and two secondary variables [ pad - use ]. Each of these variables have their own sub-set of variables. Therefore, the combinations are large and complex. In our tech savvy world, I think people want a "system" that will simplify the process of saddle fitting and deliver the silver bullet result (quick and easy). It is my opinion that saddle fitting is more an ART than a science. One develops this art over years of experience and a lot of gray hairs. While the basic concepts of saddle fit can be taught, only working with the variables on a day to day basis will lead one to an understanding of the art. As we all know there individuals, the "experts", out there who tout their "saddle fitting system". To be fair here one could use one or more of these systems as a tool ( with the understanding their strengths and weaknesses ) in arriving at the final conclusion. A "good" saddle fit requires one to use the variables at hand and then to allow for possible changes in the variables to arrive at a combination that give the best saddle fit over time. Folks, that’s the art, that only experience can achieve. Each maker generally has developed the art in a way that best works for them. If the end result is positive, how one arrives at the result is not all that important.

When it is all said and done "saddle fit" is a guess although in many cases an educated guess, it is still just a guess. If one understands this, then they can act accordingly and hopefully the riding experience will be more joyful.

The "saddle fit" problem in my opinion is generated from the retail saddle purchase. I am not going to beat up the production saddle companies or the retail stores. The majority of the production saddle companies produce a product that serves their market well and most retail stores do their best to serve their customers. The problem as I see it is lack of information. First of all, typically one of the major variables is missing – the horse. Next, the basic information on the saddle is not generally available to the retail store or consumer; gullet width, bar angle, etc. Plus, the ability of the rider generally can not be observed. So, we have a situation where a decision regarding "saddle fit" may be determined with only around 50% or less of the information needed to make that educated guess. I would think that given this, the "saddle fit" failure rate will be high. The rider has spent good money for a saddle they can’t use. Once burned the rider has questions and looking for information, thus the interest in "saddle fit" giving rise to the "experts" who as we know have a lot of "information". The individual saddle maker can get dragged into the middle by the rider wanting the saddle maker to be a miracle worker and make things right.

When the rubber meets the road it is the individual rider/horse owner who ultimately responsible for "saddle fit". The rider must educate themselves as best as possible. It is the responsibility of our industry as a whole to provide the rider with the proper information so they can make an informed decision. To date, we as an industry in general have not fulfilled that responsibility, therefore the rider is at a disadvantage as the information they need is almost nonexistent and the validity of the information available maybe suspect for numerous reasons. Given this lack of valid information from the industry, the rider is prone to seek the "experts" for guidance.

The other day did a search on the internet for saddle fit. Then looked at each result for ten pages. Was an interesting exercise. Only found 3 entries from saddle makers that had written an article or were quoted in an article, who were not trying to sell or promote their own deal. References to the NMSU study popped up 11 times. As with all internet searches there were numerous duplicates and information from one site is repeated on other sites. Found one site that did a good job explaining saddle fit except of their explanation on how one determines quarter horse, full quarter horse, semi-quarter horse bars was completely wrong, and this information was repeated on 7 other sites. Given what I saw, I have a lot of sympathy for the rider, and understand their frustration.

Until good valid information is available, the saddle fit question will be with us for a while. This forum is a positive step in that direction.

Just some thoughts and observations for your consideration.

Bob

[Hennessy]

there's good saddle makers and tree makers,good horsemen and all the rest drag along behind.dave jones back in the 60's wrote a book on his three way dee rig.how it eliminated a saddle from crawling into the shoulder blade[scapula].monty foreman also in the 60's invented his own flat plate rawhide back'd front rig [no crawl].both of these men were well known horsemen and very successful.both did ok in the saddle world, also.back then they gained some followers,even a few innovative imitators created their own versions of a no crawl saddle..sad to say,the competitive big shops avoided it,or rigg'd wrong and nothing big ever got going..i've been hearing of people x ing their cinches and snugging everything down and the saddle stays put.,it came via a mule man when i heard it.people who ride a bunch need to watch their horses for sore spots and mannerisms[most do]but we've all got a horror story or two of ignorant ,know alls who learnt from their father who learnt from his father and so it goes. ignorance to them is bliss,my thoughts are be prepared to own several blankets and if your saddle slips to you when you step up,take a blanket off or tighten your cinch or write in this forum for help

[roperdad]

Wow! What a thread. My opinion is based more on application and expereience than schooling or theory, and it touches on what some previous posters have opined.

My Dad is an old school cowboy. When I was a kid he had one well-made saddle because it was what he could afford (technically trade for, but that is another story). He rode more horses for others and himself than I can enumerate, and he rode a lot. Hours and hours in all kinds of weather and he never had a sore horse or worried if his saddle fit. He swapped blankets quite a little and still cinches a horse tighter than anyone I've ever known. He'd rope bulls if he had to, drag cows out of dams or just sort. He'd loosen his cinches when he got off and pull it down when it was time to go again.

I think the difference is that his horses were always in condition. If they were wore out he swapped horses, but they were all in shape. Fat and/or soft horses are what you tend to see get sore more often than not. On AVERAGE, about any saddle can sore a soft horse, and on AVERAGE about any saddle is fine on a horse that is in good shape.

Different analogy, but an out of shape person can't run a mile in any kind of shoe, but some great runners run in sandals and do very well.

[Denise]

roperdad,

Your post is a great example of why "saddle fit" isn't an issue for most working cowboys. They start with a well made saddle - the best they can afford at the time - knowing how important that is. They ride enough that they ride well - quiet in the saddle, not bouncing all over the place. They know how to use padding properly and take care of it, changing and cleaning as necessary. They take care of their horse - loosening cinches when taking a break, "airing out their back" or unsaddling over lunch to give the horse a break. They ride in shape horses that are generally pretty close in body type. Round, mutton withered horses don't make it long on a real ranch string. And if they have to ride an out of shape horse to get them in shape, they notice if anything is starting to go wrong and act on it - changing padding, giving a few days off for an early cinch sore, etc. Put all that basic common sense stuff together and "saddle fit" isn't a problem.

Contrast this with a very common senario, a mid-forties to early fifties woman who finally has the means to own her own horse, which has been a dream of hers since childhood. She still doesn't have time to ride a lot, so her seat isn't great. Average rides last less than an hour. She rides a cheaper made saddle on an overweight horse. And one weekend she does a clinic where she rides her horse for maybe six hours a day - and he comes up sore. I'm not putting down recreational riders. Far from it. They are a major component in the horse industry these days. But we have to face reality. This is the rider scouring the internet for information on "saddle fit" or consulting the "experts" of varying kinds because what else could have made her horse sore but the saddle??? That is how she likely thinks. The other factors aren't even in her thought process.

If you build primarily for working cowboys, "saddle fit" and its myths are pretty much a non-issue. You know what type of trees to order for the body type of horses your customers ride, and they take if from there. But if you build for recreational riders (and that can be a lucrative market) then you will face all sorts of questions arising from the mis-information that abounds and is copied and re-copied throughout the internet. My question is how can we as saddle and tree makers get that "common sense" information out into places that these types of riders can find it?

[Denise]

We agree the there have been "studies" done, but these have been conducted by individuals and companies to support their products or interests and these studies should be questioned. In this case the students that did the study have no dog in the fight.

Regarding the New Mexico State "study" - actually the students did have a dog in the fight. The group that did the study was the New Mexico State Universities National Agri-Marketing Club http://aces.nmsu.edu...ml#anchor_73619 They did it to enter a marketing competition, which they won.

http://www.namablog.org/?cat=277 And the marketing plan based on this "study" has both the name of the company they were marketing and all the names of the NMSU students and advisors on it. http://www.ayurveda....dent/10NMSU.pdf This makes me suspect that in some way the company had a financial interest in the work. How else did they just "happen to be there" to try their saddles on some horses?

So I see this work more as a survey than a study. What did it show? If you test the random combinations of riders, horses and saddles that are used in real life out there, you will find a lot of high pressure areas. I don't think anyone has published that as recorded fact before, though it is one of the things that we all kind of "know" to be true. Now we have proof. But as far as testing anything about saddle fit to determine why the high pressure areas are there and therefore how to correct them - no. This "study" didn't do that.

You asked about other studies being done. I have done a fair amount of digging into the academic literature and I have yet to come up with anything in regards to western saddles. I did hear via the grapevine that some of the studies that ended up being about pads were initially started to be on saddles but they couldn't come up with anything consistent or significant enough to make a proper study so they wrote on what they could, which ended up being the pads. I can't confirm this though. There are a few studies in the literature using the pressure pad testing with English saddles. A 2007 study called "The influence of the width of the saddle tree on the forces and pressure distribution under the saddle" done at the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna, Austria starts off its abstract with "As there is no statistical evidence that saddle fit influences the load exerted on a horse's back this study was performed to asses the hypothesis that the width of the tree significantly alters the pressure distribution on the back beneath the saddle." In other words, 2007 was the first time it was confirmed that differences in trees really do cause different pressure patterns on the horse! Some of the very few other studies done (all with English saddles) are about the pressure under the saddle during mounting, comparing from the ground versus from a mounting block, or the difference in pressure under the saddle when a rider on a standing horse leans 10 degrees forward or back or to either side. This is the current state of academic research as far as I can find so far.

The truth is, as so many have pointed out, there are just so many variables that to isolate just one and test it is a difficult thing to do. Yet if we are going to find real answers to some of the real questions (what is the best shape for the front bar tip to avoid pressure points during movement? How do different rigging positions really affect the pressure under the saddle?) that is what needs to happen. And as Aggiebraider says, it comes down to who will pay for these studies to be done and done without bias?

Do we need academic studies to build good trees and saddles? Of course not. A lot of us make our living by doing that right now and there are a lot of satisfied riders and horses out there that show that. The places these studies would come in useful are 1.) settling areas where there is disagreement among those of us who build them as to what is best (when we do things differently and they both work) or 2.) having proof to back what we say when in there is contradictory information being touted as "fact". Experience and anecdotes only go so far with some people when what we say is different than someone with Dr. in front of their name.

So if anyone else knows of other studies being done, I would also be very glad to hear about them. The more we learn about what others discover or prove, the more "facts" we know that we can share with others.