Rivets Pulling Loose

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I've got a problem with my rivets. They keep pulling loose on me.

I'm using Springfield Leather's "Medium" Double Cap rivets http://springfieldleather.com/store/product/17192/Rivet%2CD-C%2CSB-Np%2CMed%2C50pk/

They claim they are "Identical to the Leather Factory's"...by which I assume they mean Tandy.

I've got the Tandy "Deluxe" Setting kit which Has the correct setter and anvil for these Double Cap rivets. I'm using a Urethane Mallet to whack the Setter.

The rivets are the correct length, I've tried the "Small" and "Large" rivets as well, they are just different post lengths. The "Small" is too short and the "Large" is too long. I'm sure I'm not using a rivet with a wrong length post....

Are these double cap rivets just not up to the task in terms of holding power? Should I be using Tubular rivets if Strength is what I'm after?

This is the piece in Question...

and the rivet...

The head is just pulling right off. I'd say its happening on about 20% of the rivets I set.

[dirtclod]

I belive your problem is the material is seperating and the rivet comes out. Try punching a circle out of leather then punch a hole in it and use your rivet. The leather piece will act as a washer.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Yeah I'm already doing that. You just can't see it in the first pic and the second pic its already fallen off when the other side of the rivet fell off.

These rivets are actually seperating, not pulling through the fabric.

[dirtclod]

Hit them harder or get a heavier mallet. I've used a bunch of them over the years and never had that problem.

[Spinner]

I have noticed that one some of the double cap rivets. The problem is if they are too long, the shaft will simply bend and not mushroom correctly. if they are too short, well they simply don't hit the cap and won't mushroom either. First solution is as Dirtclod mentioned...get a bigger hammer and strike solidly against a solid surface like a granite or marble slab. Trying to set them on wood will not give sufficient support for them to impact the cap. If this is still a problem, take the large version, measure the length needed (thickness of the materials + the depth of the cap) and use a pair of wire cutters to trim the shaft to the right length.

In situations where strength and security are necessary, I would go with a rivet & burr combo instead of the double caps. They don't have quite the same finished look but you'll have one hell of a time removing it let alone ever having one pull loose.

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/search/searchresults/11280-00.aspx?feature=Product_11&kw=burr

you'll need a different type of setter for these as well:

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/search/searchresults/8110-01.aspx

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Along the same lines... is there a tool that will press the rivets together without the need for me to swing a hammer? Does such a tool work as well as a mallet and setter?

[Spinner]

Yep, a standard bench top press will work just fine. You can pick them up at any Tandy for the nice gear action ones or you can go a little bit less expensive and get one from Harbor Freight for about $40.

Tandy: http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/search/searchresults/3990-00.aspx?feature=Product_3&kw=press

Harbor Freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-ton-arbor-press.html

Just found one from Sears that is a cam action like the Tandy one: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00974879000P?mv=rr&i_cntr=1288799001555

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Very interesting... I can't help but notice the Tandy one uses Setting Dies and the other two don't. Do they offer dies for the less expensive types or are they less expensive because they don't use dies?

[Spinner]

Very interesting... I can't help but notice the Tandy one uses Setting Dies and the other two don't. Do they offer dies for the less expensive types or are they less expensive because they don't use dies?

The Tandy one is made specifically for leatherworking (stamping, setting, etc). whereas the other two are made for general purpose anywhere you would need one (automotive, machine shop, leatherworking, etc) so they would need a little more input from the user to position/hold dies, setters, etc than then Tandy one would.

For the price difference, I'm ok with holding my setters being a non-production shop. If this was something I did all day long everyday, I'd spend the extra to get the one made to use with leather specific setters.

[busted]

I've got a problem with my rivets. They keep pulling loose on me.

I'm using Springfield Leather's "Medium" Double Cap rivets http://springfieldle...p%2CMed%2C50pk/

They claim they are "Identical to the Leather Factory's"...by which I assume they mean Tandy.

I've got the Tandy "Deluxe" Setting kit which Has the correct setter and anvil for these Double Cap rivets. I'm using a Urethane Mallet to whack the Setter.

The rivets are the correct length, I've tried the "Small" and "Large" rivets as well, they are just different post lengths. The "Small" is too short and the "Large" is too long. I'm sure I'm not using a rivet with a wrong length post....

Are these double cap rivets just not up to the task in terms of holding power? Should I be using Tubular rivets if Strength is what I'm after?

This is the piece in Question...

and the rivet...

The head is just pulling right off. I'd say its happening on about 20% of the rivets I set.

Is this material nylon? If it is you should burn a hole through it instead of cutting a hole.

Your rivets appear to be to long, what are you using for backing when you set the rivet?

I use a 16 ounce ball peen hammer and a small piece of 3/4" flat steel 3x6 my rivets don't

come loose with this setup.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Generally I've got a piece of 1/8" latigo strap as backing, then 1 or 2 layers of 18oz Canvas then another piece of 1/8" latigo strap.

I tried cutting the rivets down with a wire cutter but it just deforms the shaft and then it won't fit into the rivet head.

I did some yesterday and switched to a big ol claw hammer and I have more success than previously but still had a few pull out.

I'd go for the Rivet/Burr fasteners but they are like 20 cents apiece! I love the look of copper and all but that's pretty steep. Riddle me this, would a Tubular rivet offer equivalent strength to a rivet/burr fastener? They seem pretty tough and the price is a little more up my alley.

[Charke]

I'll pass along what little I've learned about rivets. My work is generally on leather armor, which has to take a lot of weight. Losing rivets is simply going to eventually happen in this case so I've had plenty of chances for repairs and rethinking. I started with a rubber mallet which was just terrible. Plastic or metal creates a sharper strike which creates a better mushroom. If the rivets are leaning over, if the top and bottom aren't lined up straight, something is wrong. Usually the rivet is too long, but it can also happen if you are not striking the rivet straight on. When I started I always used 3 rivets per critical joint. I'm more comfortable with my riveting and I've gone down to 2 rivets. One thought about multiple rivets is that they aren't supporting as much weight that way.

Twisting and pulling are a consideration. Are your rivets comming out of the some locations but not others? There might be more force on certain areas, especially as the product is used, that you may not have considered. I can not say looking at the pictures. It's a stab in the dark. You might try enhancing your rivets with stitches - but I don't know the pattern of what you are doing so that might not be possible.

It does sound like you are using knock-off rivets - especially if they are comparing themselves to Tandy but skirting copyright by avoiding their name. That could be your problem. I would try some Tandy rivets and see how they hold up.

I've never used double caps. I have some. They just haven't gone into anything yet because most of my rivets are hidden on one side. So I am speaking here without a gap in my knowledge.

I do swear by Chicago Screws for strength, but you've already mentioned costs are an issue. Screws tend to cost about 50 cents each which is a LOT more than a rapid-rivet. Screws never break (that I've seen) but they are notorious for working themselves undone unless you use thread-loc or screw-lock on them. Even then, there is always the odd one determined to come out so you end up checking your gear on a regular basis.

I hope I've been of some help.

Mark Charke

[busted]

Generally I've got a piece of 1/8" latigo strap as backing, then 1 or 2 layers of 18oz Canvas then another piece of 1/8" latigo strap.

I tried cutting the rivets down with a wire cutter but it just deforms the shaft and then it won't fit into the rivet head.

I did some yesterday and switched to a big ol claw hammer and I have more success than previously but still had a few pull out.

I'd go for the Rivet/Burr fasteners but they are like 20 cents apiece! I love the look of copper and all but that's pretty steep. Riddle me this, would a Tubular rivet offer equivalent strength to a rivet/burr fastener? They seem pretty tough and the price is a little more up my alley.

You have half of the battle won (16 ounce hammer). You need something that is solid to back up your rivet. A piece of latigo will not do the job.

It allows the rivet to sink into the leather when you strike it. Try a piece of 3/4 inch steel flat stock and don't put anything behind the rivet other

than that now strike it with the hammer.

When you get the double ended rivet set properly you will not need the tubular rivets.

Copper burrs are for material 1/2" or over I use the 1" burrs for the nose bands I make you don't need anything with that much holding power.

Usually a tubular rivet is not stronger than a solid rivet.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Charke, Twisting and Pulling is exactly the situation I've got where the rivets are coming out. They are holding on leather attachment loops which dangle the bag from the mounting points on a bike saddle. I considered Chicago Screws as well but again, for the price point I'm working at they are too expensive. Although the biggest expense is having a bag fail because of a bad rivet, so the cost of using something like a Chicago Screw might be well worth the safety factor.

Busted, I must not have explained myself clearly. I'm using a steel Anvil on the bottom side of the rivet, the Latigo is what's being riveted.

I've got it like this: Rivet->Latigo Strap->Canvas(2 layers)->Latigo Strap->Rivet

I put one side of the rivet on my anvil, the other side I hit with the setter and my claw hammer.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[busted]

Charke, Twisting and Pulling is exactly the situation I've got where the rivets are coming out. They are holding on leather attachment loops which dangle the bag from the mounting points on a bike saddle. I considered Chicago Screws as well but again, for the price point I'm working at they are too expensive. Although the biggest expense is having a bag fail because of a bad rivet, so the cost of using something like a Chicago Screw might be well worth the safety factor.

Busted, I must not have explained myself clearly. I'm using a steel Anvil on the bottom side of the rivet, the Latigo is what's being riveted.

I've got it like this: Rivet->Latigo Strap->Canvas(2 layers)->Latigo Strap->Rivet

I put one side of the rivet on my anvil, the other side I hit with the setter and my claw hammer.

OK I was misunderstanding the structure of your pile. Try doing away with the setter use just the hammer. Try this on scrap pieces.

What you are doing should work just fine.

[Xander]

I had a similar problem. As it turned out, the shaft of the rivet (I used rapid rivets) was too long for the ounceage of leather. I slipped a "washer" in there, and that did the trick. No more skewing to the side!

[MedusaOblongata]

I've successfully used similar rivets. I've found that without the setter, the top of the rivet comes out looking very ugly. But I've been able to get them to stick using the setter. Other than hitting them pretty hard, I usually hit each rivet twice, then flip it over (since the two parts of the setter are not identical) and hit it twice more. Then I try to pull it apart. Once in a while, one will come apart, but if it doesn't come apart right then, it won't come apart later either.

If you're just making one or two bags, by all means go with the more expensive and stronger chicago screws. If you're making a lot of them, then it'll have to be rivets.

Has anyone else found a difference hitting a rivet more than once?

[Thistledown]

Ahhh..not having any personal experience with the type of rivets you are using, I was just wondering. Do these type of rivets come in different widths ? Is it possible that the heads are too wide to lock on properly even if the shaft has mushroomed ? Just my ignorant two cents worth . I normally use the copper rivets and roves, properly done, they'll never pull apart, leather will rip first.- but they are much more expensive

[KateC]

I repair saddle bags that loose their rivets all the time. These are set commercially. Sometimes setting another rivet works, but if its going to have alot of abuse, Chicago Screws are the way to go. Also You can grind down a long shaft to be the proper lenth to set. Works well for me. I use the ones from the Leather Factory (Tandy).

[roo4u]

i use double cap rivets for my dog stuff but i dont use the elcheapos i get the solid brass ones as they set better and the metal is tougher so they dont pop off...but for aggitation collars that take alot of abuse i use chicago screws with locktite on them.

[LeatherLori]

i use double cap rivets for my dog stuff but i dont use the elcheapos i get the solid brass ones as they set better and the metal is tougher so they dont pop off...but for aggitation collars that take alot of abuse i use chicago screws with locktite on them.

Hi...I'm new to this site & like to ask you a question on the chicago screws....i also make custom dog collars & lately was having an issue with the double cap rivets not setting tightly....didnt know if i was skivin the leather too thin. but i see you are using the screws? how do they work for the buckles? are they secure? thanks for the info

[Tree Reaper]

Try setting the same rivets in leather to see if they will pull apart.

That might tell you if it's a rivet problem.

If that works, try setting the same rivets in leather where the thickness of two pieces of leather is too thin for the rivet and see if they pull apart.

That might tell you that the rivet you are using is too long for the project.

It could be that the material is just too soft and won't support the rivet as you set it.

In order to find the problem it will be a process of elimination.

Kevin.

[bkingery]

Hi...I'm new to this site & like to ask you a question on the chicago screws....i also make custom dog collars & lately was having an issue with the double cap rivets not setting tightly....didnt know if i was skivin the leather too thin. but i see you are using the screws? how do they work for the buckles? are they secure? thanks for the info

Chicago screws are just that, a screw and a nut. If you use a little locktite on them they will never come loose, well maybe not never but pretty dang close. There are two kinds of locktite red and blue. The blue stuff is good for things that you don't want to come loose but may have to take apart. The red stuff is super duty industrial and it takes a jackhammer to get it apart. The biggest thing to remember is "A DAB WILL DO YA". I have used both on oilfiled trucks that take a ton of abuse and it works like it says.

Peace

Bryan

[roo4u]

the thing about using the chicago screws is they are bigger than rivets so if your collar is smaller then it will look funny..plus because they are screws there is only a couple different thicknesses so if your skiving the leather down fairly thin they will not be tight.....perhaps just change the length of rivet you are using or go to a higher quality rivet....

[mike59]

Here's what I've learned and works every time. For double cap rivets,...forget the cheap rivet setter I think you're using to set the cap,....use your hammer and anvil. If you have trouble striking the cap dead center, practice with your hammer a few times first. If the small rivets are too short, and the large are too long, use the medium rivets. I use them on most applications, and if you're worried about them holding,...try taking one out without damaging the project,...it ain't easy.