Slaughter Free Leather Not Selling As Expected

[whinewine]

Steven:

I just ordered 2 hides... the price is absolutely right and I have no philosophical axe to grind - I sell to vegans/pagans/cannibals/omnivores & all persuasions in between lol.

[Go2Tex]

The issue here is one of semantics stemming from the demonization of the entire meat industry and anything to do with humans generally by people who have been brainwashed by the self loathing, anti-human liberal media. The idea that death by any means other than dying in one's sleep, doctor assisted suicide or a drug overdose can be anything other than entirely unpleasant, is as laughable and deserving of complete ridicule as Algore's man caused global warming.

Anyone who would pay 10x more for something because it was killed by "mother nature" rather than a captive bolt slamming against its skull, or a lead slug from a politically incorrect "assault rifle", deserves to be taken to the cleaners by every snake oil salesman who comes along...... and I mean that in the good way, Steve.

If you can sell grain damaged leather for 10x what it would otherwise sell for, I say more power to ya but I'm still trying to figure out how to sell the undamaged, horrifically slaughtered stuff I have on hand due to the bottom falling out of the "normal" market because some smarmy liberal politicians decided to force banks to give home mortgages to people who couldn't afford to over-eat at McDonalds 7 days a week.

But, if some sandal wearing, tree hugging, whale saving, earth worshipping man hater comes along and is looking for some humanely euthanized cow hide leather chaps to wear to an Obama rally, I'll just tell her that all my leather comes from happy cows raised in my back yard....or, maybe down the road a piece.... but, hey, they died,... eh, passed away, with smiles on their faces and a full belly of natural, organically grown, Coastal/Bermuda wild grass hay. And if she believes that, maybe I can sell her a nice, earth friendly, cat-o-nine-tails whip to complete her ensamble.

[UKRay]

Okay folks, thanks to Mr Siegel's generosity (many thanks for the opportunity Steve!) I'm now in a position to pass constructive comments on the hide he sent me.

First off: The side is very big and slightly darker in colour than I am used to seeing (veg tan over here in the UK tends to be pale coloured). The extra length is extremely useful for making strap goods and I'm in no doubt, having started to work with the leather, that this is a quality product.

It cuts very well with a plough gauge, the rather stiff texture helps the cut.

It has a number of fairly superficial surface marks that are of no consequence - in fact, IMHO, they tend to add character to the leather.

If I were to be picky, I'd say there are a lot more marks on this hide than the ones I purchase from my UK supplier but this is entirely in keeping with its story - we have already been told it was dragged, but lets not get carried away with this. The marks are small and inconsequential and the leather, IMHO, is completely suitable for purpose. I have worked with it this afternoon and it is good to use.

Compared with the British leather I have been using recently, this leather tools exceptionally well. It is dryer than my regular British tanned leather and soaks up the casing water like a sponge but takes an embossed impression very well indeed. The leather also dyes and finishes well. I gave it 2 x coats of Leather Balm and Atom Wax and it looks great!

Jim's question about enzyme activity and longevity will take quite a while to prove or disprove, but to be honest, on the surface I can't see any reason why this leather won't last just as long as any other leather. If I didn't know its history I wouldn't question it for a minute.

For anyone in Europe considering buying this leather, the price compares extremely well with UK suppliers but as you might expect, shipping a single hide from the US, at around 60 dollars, is a tad too high for me to feel entirely comfortable. I suspect shipping a larger quantity will bring the price down considerably.

Right now, I can't see any reason not to buy 'Happy Cow' leather and if you have the gumption to come up with a good sales pitch you may find you can expand your market. I'm certainly going to try.

I'm happy to answer questions about the way this leather handles and cuts so fire away. If I don't have an answer I'll tell you!

Ray

[rawhide1]

Thanks for the good laugh!! And also for expressing my own thoughts in such a elegant way.

Mike

The issue here is one of semantics stemming from the demonization of the entire meat industry and anything to do with humans generally by people who have been brainwashed by the self loathing, anti-human liberal media. The idea that death by any means other than dying in one's sleep, doctor assisted suicide or a drug overdose can be anything other than entirely unpleasant, is as laughable and deserving of complete ridicule as Algore's man caused global warming.

Anyone who would pay 10x more for something because it was killed by "mother nature" rather than a captive bolt slamming against its skull, or a lead slug from a politically incorrect "assault rifle", deserves to be taken to the cleaners by every snake oil salesman who comes along...... and I mean that in the good way, Steve.

If you can sell grain damaged leather for 10x what it would otherwise sell for, I say more power to ya but I'm still trying to figure out how to sell the undamaged, horrifically slaughtered stuff I have on hand due to the bottom falling out of the "normal" market because some smarmy liberal politicians decided to force banks to give home mortgages to people who couldn't afford to over-eat at McDonalds 7 days a week.

But, if some sandal wearing, tree hugging, whale saving, earth worshipping man hater comes along and is looking for some humanely euthanized cow hide leather chaps to wear to an Obama rally, I'll just tell her that all my leather comes from happy cows raised in my back yard....or, maybe down the road a piece.... but, hey, they died,... eh, passed away, with smiles on their faces and a full belly of natural, organically grown, Coastal/Bermuda wild grass hay. And if she believes that, maybe I can sell her a nice, earth friendly, cat-o-nine-tails whip to complete her ensamble.

[Denise]

JC Javelle,

Absolutely no offense intended, but your comments are a perfect example of how much misinformation is getting to the public from people with strong agendas and how far away most people in North America are from the "living, breathing, bleeding animal side" of food production. And we as leatherworkers need to do our own educating of customers about the realities of where the leather came from and that it IS NOT the result of abuse of animals. For example, you said " I don't know if the hides from cows raised specifically for meat consumption are used in the leather industry or not." Yes. The truth is that pretty much ALL cattle are raised primarily for meat. Even old show cattle and rodeo animals end up there eventually. They don't call them "bologna bulls" for nothing! And this is where all the hides come from, except for these ones offered by Mr. Seigel. No cattle are raised primarily for hides. They aren't worth that much! Leather is a by-product of the meat industry, plain and simple.

"Corn is believed to cause ulcers in cows so large that they will punch holes in the sides of the animal. You can reach your hand, from outside of the cow, to inside one of the cows affected stomachs." This is plain and simply not true. If you can do that, the animal is dead (unless it has had surgery to put that hole there permanently.) Fact - grain overload (any kind) can kill animals, but it is an acute condition where a bovine gets into large quantities of grain when their ruman flora (the bugs in the stomach that start the digestion process) are not used to them. They don't ulcerate and rupture. It affects their body's acid/base balance and electrolytes and they get wobbly, go down, can't get up, go to sleep and die. One of the more peaceful ways to go actually. (No, I'm not kidding. I've seen and treated it as a vet.) This is why cattle feeders take such care when they start increasing the grain in the ration to do it slowly, letting the rumen flora change to the type needed to digest that volume of grain. Cattle also die from eating alfalfa (a common grass and hay) when they are not used to it. These ones do bloat, which causes their death, but they don't rupture either. Cattle are put on high grain diets at the end of their life to gain fat more quickly and efficiently. Cattle can fatten on grass, but it has to be really good quality grass, lots of it, in a breed that fattens easily. It is a lot more expensive and difficult to finish cattle on grass than on grain, and that is probably the major reason for feeding grain. It comes down to economics. We don't have the land base or climate in North America to fatten the number of animals on grass that we eat, nor are most consumers willing to spend the extra money that fattening cattle in this way requires. Grass fed cattle in North America are a niche market for the people who will spend the extra dollars and from the producers willing to take the risk and put the effort into private marketing.

As far as the beef industry goes, fast food outlets don't have as much say as they may have on something like poultry production. Like Bruce said, McDonalds buys hamburger. McDonalds has had an influence on the way the slaughter houses do their work, but it doesn't extend down the line to the beef producers. Cattlemen are working to produce steak, not hamburger. That is where the money is - top graded young animals with a fair amount of fat. Restaurant steaks are a huge market in North America, and it is the restaurant trade more than anything else that dictates the type of cuts available in your local grocery store. You end up with a lot of hamburger even from the top end animals, let alone the cull cows and bulls (old breeding stock and milk cows whose days are over) so no one grows and feeds animals for that market. While there are only a few major companies who own a lot of the meat packing plants, there are still lots of smaller packing plants out there servicing their local communities. And even the major companies do not (yet) own or feed all (or even the majority, I would think) of the cattle they slaughter. Beef production is still, at its roots, started on the privately owned ranch or farm. It isn't till the cattle are ready to hit the feedlot that large companies get really interested in them, and there are still lots of smaller, privately owned and family owned feedlots in North America too. The family farm is still very much a part of animal production, especially in the beef industry compared to other meats. Groups with agendas and big budgets try to portray it all as "big business" trying to rule the world, and it just isn't true - but they get the press. Family farm owners are too busy taking care of their animals to put out press releases and make videos. I'm not saying that big business isn't involved, but not to the extent and not in the way a lot of the "documentaries" portray it.

JC, I wrote this with the intention of clearing up some misconceptions and helping you learn more about the beef industry and where our leather comes from. We don't ranch full time, but we do run a few feeder cattle on our grass in the summer and a lot of our friends are ranchers. Making a living with cattle is getting tougher all the time. The inputs are higher and the profits are less. The last thing our industry needs is lots of false information being strewn all over the internet and the media, but that is just what is happening more and more. Writing this post is my attempt to get some of the "actual facts" out there. I hope it helps.

[Denise]

We make our own rawhide to cover saddle trees with, and from experience, we know that age, sex and breed all play a part in what a hide is like. Hides from younger animals (yearling bulls for example), even if they are as big, aren't as thick or as firm as from older animals. Cows have thinner belies than bulls do even if the hide over the backbone is as thick. When we get a Hereford hide, it is always thicker than a similar size of other breeds. We have used the occasional dairy hide from local people who slaughter a steer for their own consumption. Definitely thinner than a beef hide of similar age and size. But I knew that from another experience. When I was working as a vet, we had a really large Holstein heifer come in with calving problems. I ended up doing a C-section to get the calf - my one and only on a dairy cow. When I started the incision I used the same amount of pressure I'd been using to cut the skin on all the beef cows I'd done surgery on that spring. Went through the skin, all four layers of muscle, the peritoneum and fortunately not quite all the way through the rumen wall. Yup, they've got thinner hides all right!! I reajusted the amount of pressure for the rest of the incision. Got a live calf and the heifer went on to do well in their milking string too!

[mendedbowl]

Reading some of the unwarranted assertions that have been posted in this thread ( and a few others ), makes me wonder how many members of PETA have joined LW. They do love their infiltration "undercover" work.

ken

[UKRay]

Reading some of the unwarranted assertions that have been posted in this thread ( and a few others ), makes me wonder how many members of PETA have joined LW. They do love their infiltration "undercover" work.

ken

I'm not sure I understand you, Ken. Want to explain?

Ray

[roo4u]

the members of peta, not the general membership who just think they are helping animals, but the leadership, they work very carefully from behind the scenes to impose their beliefs on others...getting legislation passed, even influencing what is taught in schools. the money from peta, from all those animal lovers, is funneled into an outfit called ALF the animal liberation front. alf is a terrorist group that is organized into cells and they are heavily armed. they have been raided a few times and each time the feds found large stashes of weapons. all those lab raids were animals were turned loose and facilities were destroyed thats what peta pays for. the founding leaders of peta also formed alf...they are ira trained terrorists that originally formed in the uk in an attempt to disrupt the british economy. now they are doing the same thing in this country.

[mendedbowl]

I'm not sure I understand you, Ken. Want to explain?

Ray

Ray, I'm happy to explain my comment, or at least attempt to do so. I'm not sure which part you didn't understand. Was it the first part about "unwarranted assertions" posted within this thread? If so, then I would say that there have been a few people make untruthful statements about how the beef, dairy, and leather industries work (whether they believed them to be true or not I can't say). Those misunderstandings have already been addressed above by capable and professional people who have first hand knowledge about actual practices within those industries. If that part is still unclear, I can only ask that you please read the thread again.

Or did you misunderstand the part where I wondered how many members of PETA had joined LW? That's about as clear as I can think to say it, so I can only say it again. I wonder how many members of PETA have joined Leatherworker.net.

Maybe an analogy will help:

If I hear mooing in my back yard, it is only logical that I will wonder if cows have somehow found their way into my back yard. If the same "mooing" that is heard from members of PETA begins to show up in LW forums it is only logical to wonder if PETA members have wandered into the LW forums.

The last part of my comment was that PETA loves to do undercover work. They themselves call them "undercover investigations". Their investigators have no problem bending the truth and pretending to be someone they're not, telling lies so that they can gain entrance into universities and private locations for the purpose of their "investigation" work. Although I hate to direct anyone to their website, that's about the most direct way to prove my statement. If you doubt that PETA loves to use undercover investigation videos to spread their propaganda, just go and look. They seem to be proud of them.

PETA hates the leather industry. They don't believe in using leather or fur from any animal for any reason. Their view is if you support the leather industry in any way, you are sentencing animals to a lifetime of suffering (all of this can be found on their website). So if they hate any supporter of the leather industry, it's safe to say they aren't happy with LW.

If any of my comments have offended you Ray I'm sorry, that wasn't my intent. I'm a straight forward person. I believe honesty with friends, colleagues, and customers is always the best policy. If I post a compliment or praise for someone, I mean it wholeheartedly, if I offer any advice, it's truly an attempt to help someone, and if I have an opinion about a subject...well, I'm not ashamed of it.

ken

[Johanna]

Let's stop talking about PETA. I get enough hate mail as it is. There is no reason to give them any additional publicity or incentive to want to come here. To the best of my knowledge, no PETA members belong to LW. If they do, they aren't causing trouble.

This thread is about the potential slaughter-free leather has in the market. Let's stick to that conversation. Thank you!

Johanna

[UKRay]

[flintlock]

I am new here, and I know this topic is a litle old, but just because the animal died a natural death, does not mean it was humane. Sometimes, animals ar in pain long before they die and to put them down to ease the suffering is much more humane. IMO

[JohnBarton]

As far as marketing value: with the examples of: $100- conventional leather product, $500- slaughter free, $70- synthetic .... there is marketing history to indicate that SOME people really would pay the $500.

Just trying to offer something to the trade where an additional profit could be made by the maker, with the intent of helping the industry. I just believe so strongly that leather is grossly underpriced in value when compared to other commodities AND the leather worker is not generally rewarded for his efforts when compared to other industries.

Best Regards,

Steven Siegel

Not really weighing in one way or the other but I'd like to point out that to me there is a bit of a disconnect here when you are trying to connect the prices that leather workers receive for finished goods and the "morality tax" that some people are willing to pay for supposedly bio-ethical things.

If any leather worker is not getting the amount of money that they feel that they deserve for their work then they should either quit, make better things or improve their marketing. The argument that leather work is grossly under priced has nothing to do with the type of leather used. We all know that some people get great money for their stuff and other people don't. That's just life and has to do with many many factors. No one is ENTITLED to a certain income JUST BECAUSE they spent x-amount of hours learning their craft or because they work so hard at it. People earn what they can according to their ability AND market forces.

I agree that there IS a market for so-called "green" materials. Whether there SHOULD be a market where people are asked to pay more and willingly pay more for these items is another topic. In my mind what should happen is what is already happening and that is that companies are finding out that being environmentally friendly and bio-ethical saves them money and preserves profits. Thus, instead of having to market SOME materials as more ethical while implying that other materials are not, we can all benefit by knowing that industry as a whole is more ethical and humane.

Personally I think that any leather worker who markets their products as being made from "free range" cows is painting themselves into a corner because then they have to pretty much NOT use any other type of leather. And let's say the price of material is double that of other leather. Why increase the price of the finished goods by 3-10x ???

Is that ethical and moral to take more money away from a person just because you can play on their emotions and sense of morality? This seems like the wrong way to increase one's income. I mean if we really care about these things and I am linking the vegan lifestyle with the green movement here, then one has to consider the carbon impact that making the 3 to 10x extra money to PAY for the "slaughter-free" leather goods has on the world.

Life is really a viscous circle isn't it?

[Horsetutor]

OK, So, if I make saddlebags out of Steven's hides, which costs me quite a bit less, and looks good, profit-wise,-- can customers tell the finished product from the ones I have been making from those cows who ran afoul of IBP's captive bolt?

Would I be able to do some creative marketing, and get better prices? Cause this ol' fat cowboy is interested in that.

Plus, also, if I build up a nice niche market, can those unscrupulous devils just make knockoffs and CLAIM THEIR LEATHER WAS FROM "NATURAL" LEATHER, AND THUSLY BENEFIT FROM MY CLEVER MARKET WORK???[

Just curious. What little mind I have works that way.

As far as a lesser carbon footprint, I fear it takes more emissions to harvest range dead cattle than normal ones. Th normal cows go efficiently to the slaughter house, 50 or 60 to a trailer. The other requires a separate truck, and a front end loader, most likely, both using that awful fossil fuel for only one hide. I don't know where one of Segal's hides go to be treated, but I doubt it is as handy to the tannery as, say S. B. Foote is to Swift Packing. ( about half a mile. in Cactus, TX) Probably gonna require more trucking than that. More fuel, more time, more special handling, bigger footprint..

I guess I have my doubts.

Is this the same Steven Segal who whacks folks around in the movies? Great flicks, bud, if it is. I love 'em.

I'm an old Marine and I still kinda like violence.

BTW, before You city folks get out your pitchforks, shovels and lynching gear, I'm mostly just kidding. My tongue is firmly in my cheek, OK?quote name=JohnBarton' timestamp='1295498963' post='182691]

Not really weighing in one way or the other but I'd like to point out that to me there is a bit of a disconnect here when you are trying to connect the prices that leather workers receive for finished goods and the "morality tax" that some people are willing to pay for supposedly bio-ethical things.

If any leather worker is not getting the amount of money that they feel that they deserve for their work then they should either quit, make better things or improve their marketing. The argument that leather work is grossly under priced has nothing to do with the type of leather used. We all know that some people get great money for their stuff and other people don't. That's just life and has to do with many many factors. No one is ENTITLED to a certain income JUST BECAUSE they spent x-amount of hours learning their craft or because they work so hard at it. People earn what they can according to their ability AND market forces.

I agree that there IS a market for so-called "green" materials. Whether there SHOULD be a market where people are asked to pay more and willingly pay more for these items is another topic. In my mind what should happen is what is already happening and that is that companies are finding out that being environmentally friendly and bio-ethical saves them money and preserves profits. Thus, instead of having to market SOME materials as more ethical while implying that other materials are not, we can all benefit by knowing that industry as a whole is more ethical and humane.

Personally I think that any leather worker who markets their products as being made from "free range" cows is painting themselves into a corner because then they have to pretty much NOT use any other type of leather. And let's say the price of material is double that of other leather. Why increase the price of the finished goods by 3-10x ???

Is that ethical and moral to take more money away from a person just because you can play on their emotions and sense of morality? This seems like the wrong way to increase one's income. I mean if we really care about these things and I am linking the vegan lifestyle with the green movement here, then one has to consider the carbon impact that making the 3 to 10x extra money to PAY for the "slaughter-free" leather goods has on the world.

Life is really a viscous circle isn't it?

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

It would have been nice to have a rug made from the 1,200# show steer I rolled under the front end of my 3500 Dodge 4x4. Man it had a nice thick all jet black coat. They ended up just burying it with the rest after butchering it out that night.

Someone else hit, and killed it, dropping it into my lane. It was dark, and I didn't see it till it was too late, so all I did was tenderize it a little more. Drove the truck home with a bent center link. Aaaahhh, life in a rural area. When the insurance agent asked if here were any fatalities, I told her yes, there was one. Just wish I could have keep a straighter face when she asked for details.

Edited January 21, 2011 by BIGGUNDOCTOR

[tg lucas]

Oh wow, I never thought that one post would have had such a carry thru from so many and on such a long range of view points. I love this website for this aspect alone.

I feel compelled to add my perspective to the original post and here it is....

First of all, the product is not selling as projected or hoped for. There are many view points as to why this is the case but what are the actual reasons? From a marketing and design background of over twenty years (Most of you in America have at least one example of my work in your cabinets right now) I see a fatal flaw in the marketing of this product that is no fault of Mr. Siegel. Whenever you introduce a new product to a line of products that are well established and are a majority of your income, the new product must not be in direct competition or worse yet, demonize your older and more established line of products. To do so is a death wish to your economic stability on all fronts of your product line because it introduces doubt on various levels. Branding a product, to create a brand loyalty and eventually establish expanded additional sales is a sought after knowledge every business person in the world has struggled over since the beginning of commerce.

Let us examine just this one case. The branding of "Slaughter Free" leather is problematic for the consumer as it portrays that any leather not harvested in a "slaughter free" manner has been acquired by less than humane or morally correct means. Rather if this is true are not, it still does imply a moral issue with manufacturers and consumers alike and will suffer a backlash as we have seen on this forum. What this simply translates to is the failure of expectations, if not outright death of the product. No pun intended. Hundreds of products lay in warehouses all across America because of this very lack of branding. It does not matter if the product exists as Mr. Siegel has stated a few times in his posts, if it does not sell it it is a mute issue. The obvious rejection by the majority of consumers of leather products of this forum by not purchasing the product is indicative of a absence of proper branding and education.

I have no doubts of Mr. Siegel's vast knowledge of leather however marketing is a ever changing area of expertise and no one person should ever consider themselves comprehensive of all it's facets. This is the reason for the many branding companies out there, some being more successful than others depending on their individual niche and experience. Make no mistake these companies are very expensive and often used by other advertising agencies to facilitate their clients needs when millions of dollars are on the line and failure is not an option, although there are never any guarantees. The branding companies spend lots of money and time

trying to understand consumer wants and needs, then translating those to clients. All of this research comes together in creating a "brand identity" and that is what we the consumer see, the logo, colors, the advantages of the new product. However as a supplier, one is also obligated to educate buyers of any shortcomings of the offered product if their are any and "manage their expectations". This kind of specialized help is, to be honest, out of financial range except for the larger companies. However; whether we produce wallets, belts, holsters and saddles or produce automobiles we are all subject to our end customer needs or wants and a more complete understanding will be the difference of shoppers versus buyers.

So this would be my humble suggestion, first rebrand the product to something less controversial, for instance "Natural Selections" brand, or something in the same genre that signifies that this product is different but in no way competitive or offensive with your traditional offerings. Leather artisans and craftsman are very traditional group due to the very nature of their unique relationship with their chosen medium. They instinctively know that leather came from a living breathing animal and that their work only enhances and extends the legacy of that animal and no other group of craftsman share that "bond" save perhaps those that work with wood. They understand that each animal is different and therefor the work they will produce will be different but the relationship of artist and medium is constant. I personally as Cherokee, have have almost a spiritual bond with my craft and to some level so do most artists whether it is something that they are aware of or would admit to in varying degrees. To imply, even most innocently, that my art or livelihood is some manner is less than morally honorable with have an immediate and intense reaction, most likely being negative to any product being offered. Most of us have a fairly decent functioning moral compass and would shy away from any product that we felt was damaging our environment or was endangering to our long term continuation of our craft, to presume otherwise or even accidently would be a marketing disaster.

Secondly, I would put great effort in communication and education about the product. Explain how it could be marketed to the end consumer, it's advantages to the leather worker over traditional offerings. Is there any shortcomings of the product and what can be done to overcome them if any. Can it be used for some products and not for others? As a supplier, be proactive in managing the expectations of your customers and not wait for negative feedback to crush the product before it can gain a place in the market. Bad news travels ten times faster than good and unfortunately remains in memory ten times longer. Circumvent this by an honest evaluation and comparison to other products beforehand and make this readily available to consumers. It will prevent unfulfilled expectations, limit complaints and generally excel the perception of your dedication to your customer's satisfaction.

Lastly, understand the economics of your customer base completely. This is probably the most volatile aspect to any marketing campaign as it changes depending on a myriad of circumstances. If a product is not vastly superior or economically obtainable without sacrificing expected qualities, it will have a slow or non-existent interest in the intended market. If a product does not give me the majority of qualities I require, no matter what it's cost, then I have no motivation to buy it. It may be another of hundreds of products out there that started out as good ideas or simply ahead of there time, but just do not have the market share to sustain sales or manufacture. Unless you have a deep belief and even deeper pockets to hold out until a product could gain a wider acceptance within your customer base, it may be advisable to discontinue that product and provide the products that your consumer base is actively seeking and allows a better cash flow for innovation later.

In closing, I applaud your efforts to expand the offerings of our craft and your obvious dedication to it. Innovation and imagination is one of the reasons that made America, in particular, such a place of freedom and possibilities. Don't be discouraged and never stop trying to make a difference for the people or businesses you are involved in. Some efforts

are never rewarded but those that are will be more gratifying.

ps. I can personally see a market potential for the "tree hugging hippies" that make up half my clientele for my wildlife carvings. So if you ever need an honest, no holds barred review of your product for that purpose let me know and we can talk. Oh I can see it now... "yep poor Bessie spent a lifetime of happily producing milk as farm family pet until a lightning strike called her home to the Creator and now she is immortalized in your carving of the American Bald Eagle, that also with your purchase a percentage will be donated to such and such foundation. Yes, you have a wonderful piece of art and helped save the planet... doesn't that just give you a warm fuzzy feeling?" Cha-ching.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Hmmm, a name that sounds better than slaughter free for the intended customer. Natural Selections , pasture perfect, no kill, end of the pasture, happy cow (from UKRay), Au natural, Mother nature, naturally demised, organic, .....................................

One thing that has always bugged me is paying more for something due to its size, quantity, etc. Why is whole wheat flour more than the stuff that has far more processing? Why is that individual serving ham steak 2x more in cost per pound than a whole ham? Why is organic anything so much more than the "non healthy" stuff. My point is, make items with this leather and sell it at the same rate as regular leather, or say 50% higher. That way the cow huggers won't feel that they are being taken advantage of, and you may end up selling a lot more. It isn't like this leather works any differently than what we normally use, it just came to be by a different route. So why use it if you can't make a much higher profit? To attract a new customer base that would otherwise buy something else. An option, that's all. I know that a much higher profit could possibly be made, but if it is too high of a difference it may not sell at all. Just explain that there are fewer naturally demised hides than the other style, hence the slightly higher premium in cost. Most nature loving hippie types that I know have one thing in common, they don't have a lot of cash.

I pay extra for USA made items because I like to support the home team, and they generally have the quality that I am looking for. So, I do understand paying more when principals are involved. With that being said I do have a pain level. If the cost is too high, I do without, or find an alternative; used, import, etc. I haven't been able to go USA, or nothing, due to so much being made overseas now.

[mendedbowl]

Label your product what you will, whether it be "Slaughter Free", "Natural Selection", or "Happy Cows", and when your customer asks for the details about this wonderfully humane product what are you going to say? Will you tell them the truth? That "dear old Bessie was in line for the slaughterhouse just like all the rest of the cows. She wasn't treated any better. She just happened to drop dead BEFORE she reached the killing floor, and for that I get to charge you more for your new wallet, and you get to have the erroneous belief that you've made an ethical purchase "

Or will you tell them something less than the truth?

If your potential customer wouldn't normally buy leather goods because of their personal moral beliefs, and you tell them anything other than the truth, you're attempting to trick them into breaking their own moral code. While I may not agree with their beliefs, I respect their right to have those beliefs, and I'm not going to lie to them just to make a sale. I sell products made from the skins of animals. These skins are by-products of the meat industry. End of story. If someone can't buy leather goods because of some moral objection to those conditions they need to look elsewhere for alternatives. My integrity and my reputation are more important to me than selling a product.

ken

[tg lucas]

Ronflmao, I guess sarcasm isn't big in Ken's world but it just goes to prove my point. Leather from cattle by any means acquired is still a byproduct.

In twenty years of working with leather in various forms I have never had a potential customer ask how I got the leather. They are interested in the end product only.

I illustrate this by a conversation I overheard while behind a couple of women in a checkout line at the grocery store the other day. One woman was chiding her companion because of the various meats she was purchasing and how she could never eat any thing with a face. Remembering this post, I started paying a little closer attention to what this woman was saying as insight is always valuable. So I listened to her expound as to the virtues of the vegetarian lifestyle and how it made her feel closer to Mother Earth.

Turning around to finally take a look at this woman, I almost laughed out loud. Standing there, skinny as a rail wearing a woolen sweater dress, a wide leather belt, a pair of Ug boots and a Coach purse, the only thing that she was wearing that didn't come from something with a face was her tights (they could have been silk for that matter, but do silk worms qualify as having faces?). By her conversation she really believed in what she was saying whether or not it was this week's fad of enlightened lifestyle changes or a long held belief, but it struck me as rather shallow given the circumstances. Normally, I would not say something but I had to really bit my lip to stay quiet as she was very vocal about her ideas, but being in NW Arkansas we have an abundance of neo-hippies due to being surrounded by several colleges and the university and you can normally just ignore them. I paid for my purchases and left out of the store to the parking lot and guess who was parked next to my truck. Thats right, veggie and friend getting into a big SUV with a really nice leather package from what I could see.... and I kid you not a bumper sticker from GreenPeace and one from PETA. Well, the devil in me won out and I put on my most charming smile and approached her driver side window. As she smiled and rolled down her window a bit, I said "I heard what you were saying about about vegetarian diets and that how you would not anything with a face. It really got my attention". Bigger smile and down came the window a little more as she leaned out a bit. "Yeah" I continued, " But it makes me wonder about the five sad faced ones". She looked at me with a look of serious concern and questioning asking " Sad faced ones?" Keeping a straight face as best I could I replied "Yeah, you know, the sad faces of the cute little wooly sheep that made your boots and at least five of the big brown-eyed cows that made your belt and the seats that you and your pretty friend are sitting on". Then I just turned around walked back to my truck. As I opened my door, I flashed another charming smile, tipped my hat and got in. As backed out, she was still just staring blankly, eyes and mouth wide open as if hit in the back of the head with a 2x4. I laughed all the way home as I envisioned her on the cell phone frantically calling Daddy or maybe her husband, demanding that he sell this vehicle immediately and get her a Volt or a Leaf.

Bottom line is you are more likely to get hippie protesters at your booth or show than anybody asking for leather that was "Naturally Selected". But if you ever did, would it not be nice to say "Ya know, I do have a source for just that kind of thing, it's expensive but available"

Edited January 25, 2011 by Johanna
Removed humorous remarks to prevent flaming.

[Johanna]

tg lucas- I would have loved to see the look on her face!

I think part of the problem (at least here in the US) is that the average consumer is so removed from what was once normal common practice for 10,000 years- kill the meat and eat it. Only the rancher and farm kids have ever seen an animal slaughtered and served. The rest of the kids think it comes in pretty packages at the grocery store. They purposely hide the butcher shop in most stores now- blood turns people off. 200 years ago, ordinary people knew how to kill and pluck a chicken or slaughter a hog, now almost no one does.

Johanna

[tg lucas]

Omg it was hilarious, I was still laughing when I made it home and it took me 10 minutes to explain to my girlfriend what I thought was so funny. She kept interrupting me asking me which Coach bag it was and what style the Ug's were, lol.

But you are so right about the disconnect of people, food and it's sources. I just recently sold my Boer goat farm, I think it was the only no-kill meat goat farm in Arkansas mostly due to my significant other making pets out of every one of my stock, lol. But she was raised in San Francisco so I do not need to say more. Of course, I have always believed as a society develops a higher consciousness they seem to develop a lower I.Q.

Edited January 25, 2011 by tg lucas

[Timd]

" I have always believed as a society develops a higher consciousness they seem to develop a lower I.Q. " Very profound, and very true.