Slaughter Free Leather Not Selling As Expected

[jimsaddler]

Sorry to put a damper on this Leather. But from experience a Non Slaughtered Beast usually hasn't been bled at death. This causes enzyme decay to set in quickly. Making the Hide "Dead Leather" from the Tanners point of view. In the 60's when Slaughtered Hides were bringing Au$7-12. a Dead hide brought 50cents if you could sell it. (US$1.00 was equivelent of 48cents Aust then). Good Bridle sides sold for Au$9.50-12.90.

One Tanner actually used these cheap hides and tried to palm them off on the Saddlers by filling them with a a smelly component. I bought 14 sides at $4.50 per side! I still had most of them when Fire Burned my Shop 5 yrs later as the stuff was Junk as it had no strength was hard to cut or skive as the many cuts I recieved when trying to cut out or skive it. Good Tack was out of the Question. I made a few Tap washers and work Belts out of one side and lost Customers as it fell to pieces. The Tanner later gave me a credit to keep my trade and appologised, then told me it was what he had learned from his Indian Adviser as that was the only source of Hides he was used to using as it was illegal to Slaughter Cows in India, so the untouchable Caste picked the Sacred Cows when they died as a source of Leather (and whatever??) I don't think that anything has changed in recent years as a Dead Cow is a Dead Cow and decay sets in quickly if the Blood is not removed.

Convictions or Motivation does not compensate for a Bad or inferior Product which DEAD Hides Produce.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

People who hold strong convictions about something are often very motivated to put their money where their mouth is and will pay extra for products that fit into those convictions. You can see this with organic food, a large proportion of which is purchased by more affluent moms with small children. Working with leather of this kind would be a niche market for sure, but one that could be very profitable for those motivated to get into it. Those of us who live a more rural lifestyle don't have access to that market since our community/culture is anything but vegan, but for those working in the larger centers that are more likely to have friends/family/connections to the vegan world, and I can see a small niche market for this leather. But figuring out what to make and how to sell it would be a big job.

[Russ]

There are a lot of PITA's here, but I'm not sure they are all members of PETA

So how does one determine that the hide they purchase was in fact from a cow that had died of natural causes? ROFL

So is this forum turning into a PITA hangout?

[UKRay]

Jim, as you know, I have a huge amount of respect for your knowledge and I accept that your early experience of 'dead leather' was negative but I feel it might be best to see if this is actually the exact same stuff before condemning it publicly...

Right now, as far as I can see, this is simply your opinion (albeit based on your personal experience of someone else's leather made 50 years ago) rather than hard evidence that anyone is currently selling a 'Bad or inferior' product.

In fact, unless you are absolutely sure of the scientific processes used to make this leather (technology has moved on even in the leather industry) and/or have personal experience of using this particular product over a period of time then, IMHO, it would be unfair to label these hides in any way.

Ray

[Lurker]

I think the problem is that the market that the vendor is selling to is not the same market as the people buying the finished products. I'm going to generalize here so I apologize ahead of time for those who don't quite fit this explanation (even I don't fit it totally, but anyhow... )

A lot of the leatherworkers in North America are old cowboys and people from ranching backgrounds. People who have heard more than a few whiny rants on leather and beef and consider those rants extremely offensive and attacks on their livelihoods. Because of a few radical and uninformed "animal lovers" these leatherworkers have a chip on their sides to the entire bunch. "City folk" ya know. Leatherworkers are trying to market ALL leather as humane and environmentally friendly. By having this "second product" out that brings up questions.

That said, I'm going to be working out of an urban area where I bet I could find a few horse(wo)men that'd eat this stuff up. I wouldn't charge any extra for it though...and most certainly wouldn't pay extra for a blemished hide (after all, I'm not a vegan hippie!)

The marked down price certainly looks attractive and tempting though...

[JC Javelle]

This is a very interesting topic. And knowing that the majority of beef in America that goes to slaughter is geared towards the biggest buyer (McDonalds), a type of quality comes to mind. There are no ethics in the slaughter industry. As most cows in America raised for meat consumption are corn fed, and corn kills cows, I would rather ask the question: Which is of better quality, corn fed hides or forage fed hides? There is obviously a difference in the taste of the meat. I would assume that everything, to an extent, would be different. Now, I don't know if the hides from cows raised specifically for meat consumption are used in the leather industry or not. But if there is a known difference between the two, I would find that more interesting as a buyer of leather, than whether or not the cow died of old age, accident, or slaughter. The animal ends up in a similar place regardless of how it died. How it was raised is far more interesting to me than how it died.

Just my take on things.

Edited January 7, 2011 by JC Javelle

[bruce johnson]

JC,

I sure respect other opinions, but have a few observations here. As you will read, I have some biases. First off, McDonalds may be a big beef buyer, but percentage wise very few cattle are specifically geared entirely to McDonalds. The biggest value in a carcass are the prime cuts - McDonalds are not grinding $10/pound filets and T-bones for $1 double cheeseburgers. They are grinding meat from cull cows and less valuable meat cuts for hamburger. I just have to ask about the statement that corn kills cows. What's the basis of that? I have decent enough family background in cattle feeding, meat packing and processing, and just enough nutrtional courses to be dangerous, I just don't see the correlation. Moldy corn can do it, cattle not acclimated to a "hot ration" can have problems, but corn as a rule does not kill cattle offhand. To answer one of your questions - yes, the hides from the cattle fed for slaughter are used in the leather industry. Some are fed cattle and some are older cull dairy and beef cattle. That is pretty much the source of most all the hides except for the identified slaughter free hides sold by Steve Siegel. Even the slaughter free hides may have come from a pasture or a feedlot. As far as the quality difference between the forage fed cattle vs. feedlot cattle - hard to say because anymore very few cattle are finished on forage and their hides specifically separated and tanned to be sold as grass cattle hides. It would be interesting, some rawhiders have definite opinions, but the tanned hides are just for the most part fed cattle. Probably the biggest difference in decreasing hide quality and size has to do with "progress" in the cattle business. Hides are smaller, and the quality is not what the older guys tell us it used to be. These cattle have been bred up to gain faster, more efficiently, and result in a more consistant product at a younger age than cattle in the past. The hides are still a by-product, not the primary goal.

My great-grandfather used to buy a trainload of long yearling and two year old feeder cattle to put into the feedlot. He fed them and they went on the train to Chicago. He used to feed a pen of "steamers" for the fun of it - big overdone cattle whose steak would have an inch or more of fat left on it and spill over the plate. They were called steamers because they were served to the wealthy on steamships. You aren't going to find many cattle like that anymore. Think how big those hides were.

We've all seen the videos on slaughterhouse abuses. They happen, but aren't widespread in the industry. There has been a lot of improvements in livestock handling, and slaughter procedures in the last century and some would argue that improvements have doubled in the last 10 years. I just have to take exception that there are no ethics in the slaughter industry.

Respectfully,

[StevenSiegel]

Hi Jim

This is Steve Siegel.

I am sorry that you had an unpleasant receipt of leather in the 1960's from someone who was trained in India to produce leather.

By the mid 1960's the English had already and were continuing to make a fortune from the "cow" coming out of India. Eventually, the Indian government made export of this leather illegal. Some of the leather was referred to as EI Kips.

I agree with you in some respect in terms of decomposition of the hide, but this is also a function of temperature and other factors. When the hide is tanned, it is very easy to see if the leather is suitalble for the intended use. If the vendor chooses to sell a product unsuitable for the intended use and the buyer accepts delivery of same product, then both the vendor and the buyer must share responsiblity for their mistake.

I know all the "stories" about the cows that died by "accident" in India which were myths.

I am just puzzled why this is such a touchy topic for many as the leather which we had produced already exists. I put a tremedous amount of effort to establish a "chain of custody", source hides which were still suitable for finished leather and present an opportuinty forall leatherworkers to add another "line" for customers who were not otherwise their current accounts AND for the leatherworker to make a GREATER profit for their timei invested than they would otherwise. The intent was to help the leatherworkers who I feel are grossly underpaid for the skill set which they possess. .

My primary intent was to help y'all.

In regard to the cattle industry in the USA, I can truthfully say that I have done 2 things to help this industry: 1) I was personally responsible for having all of the PETA posters which had been at the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport (which had been "up" for several years) removed AND 2) throuh the Secetary of Agriculture, directly had former President Clinton change his decision in favor of the cattle industry in regard to a pending BLM chanage. #1 was from speaking up ALOT and #2 was because our business was in Santa Ynez at the time and when I called the Department of Ag as a member of the cattlemen's association, they mixed me up with a guy who lived in town at the same time with the same name as mine who is a movie actor. I don't have any special magic, but I have tried my hardest to do what I thought was correct even if it seemed impossible..

Truthfully, I just feel so discouraged from this thread.

It willl be interesting to see what the fellow in England who received a free side has to say about the leather.

[wildrose]

Steven,

I've been following this thread on and off, and having read your most recent post I feel a need to reply. Any time a new product comes out, there will be positive and negative feedback. Even when we think we are doing something right in "creating" a new offering, it will not always be seen as the "next big thing". I guess my best advice would be to take it as a lesson and keep doing the great work customers say you're known for.

[StevenSiegel]

JC,

I sure respect other opinions, but have a few observations here. As you will read, I have some biases. First off, McDonalds may be a big beef buyer, but percentage wise very few cattle are specifically geared entirely to McDonalds. The biggest value in a carcass are the prime cuts - McDonalds are not grinding $10/pound filets and T-bones for $1 double cheeseburgers. They are grinding meat from cull cows and less valuable meat cuts for hamburger. I just have to ask about the statement that corn kills cows. What's the basis of that? I have decent enough family background in cattle feeding, meat packing and processing, and just enough nutrtional courses to be dangerous, I just don't see the correlation. Moldy corn can do it, cattle not acclimated to a "hot ration" can have problems, but corn as a rule does not kill cattle offhand. To answer one of your questions - yes, the hides from the cattle fed for slaughter are used in the leather industry. Some are fed cattle and some are older cull dairy and beef cattle. That is pretty much the source of most all the hides except for the identified slaughter free hides sold by Steve Siegel. Even the slaughter free hides may have come from a pasture or a feedlot. As far as the quality difference between the forage fed cattle vs. feedlot cattle - hard to say because anymore very few cattle are finished on forage and their hides specifically separated and tanned to be sold as grass cattle hides. It would be interesting, some rawhiders have definite opinions, but the tanned hides are just for the most part fed cattle. Probably the biggest difference in decreasing hide quality and size has to do with "progress" in the cattle business. Hides are smaller, and the quality is not what the older guys tell us it used to be. These cattle have been bred up to gain faster, more efficiently, and result in a more consistant product at a younger age than cattle in the past. The hides are still a by-product, not the primary goal.

My great-grandfather used to buy a trainload of long yearling and two year old feeder cattle to put into the feedlot. He fed them and they went on the train to Chicago. He used to feed a pen of "steamers" for the fun of it - big overdone cattle whose steak would have an inch or more of fat left on it and spill over the plate. They were called steamers because they were served to the wealthy on steamships. You aren't going to find many cattle like that anymore. Think how big those hides were.

We've all seen the videos on slaughterhouse abuses. They happen, but aren't widespread in the industry. There has been a lot of improvements in livestock handling, and slaughter procedures in the last century and some would argue that improvements have doubled in the last 10 years. I just have to take exception that there are no ethics in the slaughter industry.

Respectfully,

Hi Bruce,

I have a question for you regarding hides from your personal and family experience: I have a lot of experience in sorting leather made from hides world wide. Currently, many of the US heavy native steers will have weight run-off in the ribs, but this is not present in the Continental Breeds which come from Canada or the "Contintent". This is the reason that we will only use Continental Breeds in the production of our skiritng. My question is this: Besides feeding practices, do you believe that the "stock" that is currently raised is different than what was raised in earlier days? I would be very interested to know about this and I know that you would provide a thoughtful response.

Best Regards,

Steve

[azrider]

Just thought I would chime in again. I ordered one of these hides, mainly because the price was right and I was curious. I have no idea if it will help me with my sales, but the market might be there. The hide is large, and is actually really nice. I will try to market it as slaughter free leather, but even that doesn't work, this is a nicer piece of leather than some I have ordered in the past, and I can use it. I have to agree that the people who this will be evenutally marketed to are not the ones who would buy it, but it can't hurt to try.