Position of Rider on a Horse

[bruce johnson]

Chuck Stormes in The Eclectic Horseman

The Tree

The Seat

The Rigging

Johanna,

Thanks to you and thanks to Greg for bringing this up again. Great links, and ought to be required reading for everyone.

[David Genadek]

I have openly and honestly offered my view of the situation. On several occassions pictures have been posted of this only to be met with attacks. I did just put up a link to Harry Whitneys site which has real pictures of real horseman in one of my saddles and clearly shows what I am talking about. This debate has gone on since the beginning of horsemanship. I personally think you guys are some really incredible saddle makers and I have been referring people to Rod for his trees because in my opinion he is the most knowledgeable tree maker out there. However,there is more than one concept of fitting a saddle because there is more than one concept of how to ride a horse. It is unfair for the people that are trying to learn, not to be presented with alternative concepts. There is more than one path.

David Genadek

[ArtS]

All I can say as a newby to saddle making is thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge and views. I can see that saddle making is like horsemanship - lots of opinions. All are valuable and should be filtered by the listener. When I started riding I learned to listen to everyone and take away from that what made sense to me. I think I've become a pretty good horseman because of it. I'm trying to do the same with saddle making. I respect all your abilities and opinions and THANK YOU VERY MUCH for sharing them. I have MUCH more to learn. I'll be dead before I ever get this right but I sure am enjoying the process. It's discussions like this that we all learn new ideas from and grow.

A couple of quotes that fit here are;

“The forest is a quiet place if only the best birds sing.”

- Kay Johnson

“Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.”

- Will Rogers

Thanks,

ArtS

[JRedding]

Once again I'm on the road, (D.C., Va., and Fl.) and missed the first parts of this discussion but wanted to add what I've found. "I wouldn't choose A as my choice to sit on a horse because it's putting all the weight he's carrying on the front end, the smoothest gaited horse will ride rough and have no choice but to learn to work on his front end, there goes any caliber of an actual stop and a horse couldn't rein very well when his front end is too heavy to get off his front feet and work on his butt. The result of riding a horse that far forward would prevent him from doing the job I need him for, if he stops on his front end and has to walk a circle to turn around he's rendered pretty much useless in a corrall sorting cows." -JRRedding. Not meaning to offend anyone so I'll just say that from what I've learned that is the opposite of what history teaches. The Spanish were the "Supreme" mounted warriors because they could rein their horses and get them to work off their hind ends BETTER than anyone else at the time and this is due in large part to where they sat. The Native Americans out rode the cavalry and you can still see spectacular bareback riding including sliding stops and spins at Crow Fair and the big endurance race the Nez Pierce have each year to testify that sitting over the withers does not impede the horse but rather helps it. It is also why the early California saddles were center fire. How we rope cattle has more to do with the rearward movement of the saddle than horsemanship. And the effects of that rearward, movement and it's relation to roping, has also contributed to the increasing popularity of the slick fork, low horn Wade saddle in recent years. The bigger and bigger swells meant a rider did not have to stay above the withers in order to stay on a horse that was getting a little catty but a slick fork meant the rider had to be "fork-ed" and if you look at Randy Steffens drawings of a ol' time bronc stomper you will see them sitting right over the withers and he points out that that was the benefit of the slick fork. Also the reiners and cutters I've dealt with in the Dallas/Ft Worth area a do not advocate a lot of weight in the stirrups. If you balance with too much weight in the stirrups you are actually RAISING your center of gravity so again your horsemanship suffers. David had me do a little balancing in the saddle and it is the same thing the cutters were trying to get me to do which is center you weight in the saddle and NOT put a lot of weight in the stirrups. Try sitting in a saddle with your weight in the stirrups and have someone push you from behind. You tip over like a tea pot and the more weight you push into the stirrups the easier you tip! Some of the reiners do put a lot of weight in the stirrups but their horses are performing in spite of the handicap which is what good horses do. Our horsemanship evolved out of the Spanish riding tradition including the cattle work but it seems there has been a bit lost in the translation. I know this does nothing to help Jennifer but I wanted to point these things out. A lot of what David says did not make much sense to me at first (I thought he was a kook) but then I got to visit with him in person and got a clearer picture of where he is coming from. His video is pretty good and it is clear to me now that while I've seen and met much better and much worse saddle makers as far as saddle making goes David is trying to understand the biomechanics of the horse anatomy and physiology, the human anatomy and physiology and the interplay between the two which is the totality of horsemanship. He is really doing quite a bit of research and though he may be a bit kooky......he is not a kook!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Bob Marley - Ride, Natty Ride

Alan, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree like gentlemen here, I will respond breifly in my own defense and then I'm done.I won't compare Spanish history notes and try to draw conclusions from old pencil sketches because It really doesn't pertain to the topic. I've seen Indians ride horses I've lived on the border of the largest reservation in the state my entire life. I do understand how to cinch a bronc and ride a cutting horse I've done both of them. I'm genuinely not interested in how rearward movement will affect my roping, I've roped thousands of cattle and it's working fine, wouldn't want to foul that up. If someones pushing me from behind while I'm sitting on my horse I'm just gonna pray she has brown hair and I don't turn around to find a mustache with Copenhagen breath. And I never called David a kook.

I fold, deal me out

[awharnessshop]

David, the first diagram makes so much sense with the color zones for strength of the back. I come from the Morgan Saddlebred Hackney industry, worlds apart from the stock horses. Growing up in 4-H we were always taught the horse carried 60% of their weight on the forhand, with the saddlehorses the further back you can get the neck, the higher you can get the head and rocked back the higher the horse will trot. 50/50 on the weight some horses are built for this, most are not, it seems as thought a lot of the horses that redistribute their weight in this manor break down behind a lot faster, where all the impulsion comes from, thinking that on a lot of the horses the riders are dropping back into the weaker zones of the back. A lot of it comes down to the conformation, I feel that the horse that has a natural carriage, whether it be high or low is a lot better off. From pushing penuts to puking a full bridle with their heads cranked back unnatural carriage of the head is going to lead to problems. I know that I am opening a whole can of worms mentioning this, but my point is from roping and reining, to dressage and saddle horses the benifit is to be on the strongest point of the back. Dr.Raun, a vet and hackney pony breeder did a demo and he suggested on the show pony that the back pad be more centered in the back, roughly 4" from the withers, pm a 4 wheel viceroy the back pad carries little to no weight however but even that is in the stronger part of the back. But very valid points on the weight forward aspect of rider positioning, trends seem to move riders this way, that way, and every other way. A good friend of mine is a 6th generation morgan breeder and trainer always says he does it the same way he learned from his grandfather who learned from his grandfather, (who was a vet), Basic, simple and no gimics, let the horse choose what they want to do and go with it.

-Andrew

[Alan Bell]

I guess I should at least have a morning coffee before I open my mouth and insert my foot. JR no need to bow out. I'm quite sure your experience far exceeds mine and I am still trying to process a lot of the things I've gathered from all the different sources especially when they seem to contradict each other. I may come down on the wrong side now and again but I'm still trying to get it right. I'm not home now but I have a book that talks about "forward seat" and it has some interesting things to say and a lot of it is quite controversial, too. I was not trying to infer that you called David a kook it was just my vague attempt at comedy. My apologies for that. Like you stated this is far from the original post.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

We refuse to be what you wanted us to be; We are what we are and that's the way it's going to be!

Bob Marley - Vampire

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

David,

I am struggling to understand your entire philosophy of saddle fit. I know how much easier it is to see fit with a bare tree than with a real saddle. Pictures are harder yet. I looked at the site you linked. I saw three small pictures side on, which I copied and enlarged so I could try to get what you are talking about. I understand that you would like to place a person at position A in your pictures. Studying the pictures on the Whitney site I see him as sitting at least at B, and in different body positions.

This is where my frustration is coming in. A picture of a saddled horse being ridden doesn’t tell me what the shape of the bottom of your bars look like. It doesn’t tell me how you judge where to set the tree. It doesn’t tell me how you rig it to hold it in that place. I have seen your drawings of rocking chairs as your example of how a tree bar should be shaped and used to show rigging types. But drawings and the links you have given do not give us a real picture of your idea. That is what I and a number of people on this forum have been asking from you – real pictures of your trees, where you mean them to be placed on the horse and how you rig them to hold them there. It would really help us understand better. And once we understand the “what” we will be better poised to understand the “why” which I am even more unclear on but which is vital, as we all understand.

I appreciate you commenting on our knowledge of tree making, but honestly, we are no different than the other hand made tree makers we know. From what I have read in your bios on your site, the ESI site, your old post in the member gallery etc. you have come to the saddle making business from the production end of things. While we don’t know a lot about that way of making trees and saddles, we do know that it is a lot different than what hand makers do. A worker in a production company probably is more interested in his paycheck than saddle fit. I imagine most of the time of the owner and manager is taken up with keeping the equipment running, the employees working, business moving and trying to come up with new customers. If there is an R and D department, it is pretty insignificant. As far as I can gather, this is what you are referring to when you talk of “the industry”.

A hand maker is different. You spend a lot of hours alone in the shop shaping wood or leather. When you individually hand shape the bottom of every bar you make (to specific patterns) you think a lot about shape, fit, horses, riders, and occasionally what is for supper… The saddle makers we deal with also THINK!!! They spend a lot of time alone working with leather, and thinking about what they do. And most of them have hundreds and thousands of hours with their backside on the top side of a saddle. That gives you lots of thinking time too. (This is where the Dorrance brothers worked out their philosophies on horses and riding – thinking during thousands of hours in the saddle over all types of ground doing all types of jobs.) Also, your name and reputation goes out with every one of the 10 to 20 saddles or 150 trees you make a year. One unhappy customer is too high a percentage and can cause too much damage to your reputation and business to ignore. So when we talk with saddle and tree makers, we don’t talk about “what my daddy told me to do” (I assume you recognize the quote). We talk about real life, real trees, real horses and how things are really working – or not. We talk anatomy, movement, etc, maybe not in academic terms but in functional ones. I doubt this happens in the production world, but it sure does in the hand made world – and these are the people on this board. I am not sure that you are understanding your audience correctly here.

Human nature is interesting. Our perceptions vary depending on our viewpoint. You say you are feeling attacked. I honestly don’t see a personal attack on you anywhere in this thread. (Alan Bell and yourself are the only ones who have used the label “kook” and Alan obviously wasn’t attacking you.) I do see some people who are frustrated because they have repeatedly (in earlier threads as well) asked you for clarification and none has been forthcoming. On the other hand, your comments on “a real horseman” (and the one you pointed to seems to fit the criteria) could easily be interpreted as saying that none of the people participating in this thread are “real horsemen”, and by saying that you only make for people who are “seeking the higher levels of horsemanship” you may be interpreted as saying that everyone else doesn’t care about horsemanship. If that were so, it could be construed as major insults by a lot of people who spend their lives sleeping, eating, breathing horses, saddles, and how they connect. I hope this helps you understand a bit more of where I and others are coming from. Please help us understand what you are saying by clearing explaining, with pictures, your “big picture”. Then we will have a correct and common basis for considering your position. Thank you.

[greg gomersall]

I generally saddle my colt early every morning and go ride thru my cows before I go to the shop for the day. this morning I decided to mark the spot in my saddle while sitting in it that i felt was center underneath me. When I got of I tied a knot in the mane as a reference point and measured back going thru the handhole to the mark i had made on the seat. I then pulled the saddle and measured back the same distance on the horses back and placed a piece of tape. This colt is narrow so I use an old hamley I own on it. I then caught the big gelding, saddled him with a saddle I made for myself and went thru the same process. I took photos of these points on the horses marked with tape( unfortunately on 35mm film so the pictures will be posted after I get the film developed). In both cases I was sitting towards the center of what David reffered to as position B, no wheres near what he says is where most saddles put you position C. I also know most of the better makers are putting thier low spots of thier seats in the same areas as me so thats why I get my hair up when I get challenged by someone with a different viewpoint who can't back up what they are saying without sending me on a wild goose chase for a little info here and a little there with the sum total of it all still not amounting to anything. David you might be light years ahead of the rest of us or you could be the one off track. Please show us something we can base this info on. I have talked to one of your former employers and they said you were a good carver and a very aimable person, spoke well of you, I'm not trying to fight with you I would like to understand you. We are all allowed our own opinion's on things, but when you tell us we are all wrong you need to back it up concisely in simple short terms. Respectfully Greg Gomersall

[Blake]

Hello David

I think that you can clearly see that no one is attacking you. They/We just want reasonable answers .

You have always stated that your way is superior to what the mainstream is doing and all we have asked for is a credible explanation. A few pictures of your tree on a horse with some decent instruction will go a long way. I think that we are all a bit puzzled by your lack of response to this request.

We are not so set in our ways that we would not be willing to change our approach if there really is a better method and the industry could benefit. Modern Industry calls that upgrading and some call it progress.

I think that Greg at one point even offered to build on one of your trees. It might be a good thing for you to get with a Saddle Maker/Horseman like Greg.You might both come away a bit better from the experience.

Greg, The "C" position is fairly common on Gaited horses being ridden with a flat saddle. Like you, I have never seen this with a western saddle .

Kind Regards

Blake

[Ben]

I jump in here as a rider and a builder of one saddle for myself but looking to learn all I can. Greg mentioned drawings by Will James. I have a few Will James books my uncle gave me years ago when I became interested in horses. My two Spanish Mustangs, from the Brislawns, http://www.spanishmustang.org look very similar to the horses Will James illustrates in his books. When I lope my striped back grulla over rolling prairie he wants me as far forward toward his withers as I can get. My feet just touching the stirrups and my butt never in contact with the cantle. He is happy to go for miles like this. However, if we are going north and need to slide to a stop and pivot to go east I have to lift rein, slide back to the cantle, let him stop, raise his front, pivot, and head out again. I move back up toward his withers and he is happy. If we are going down gullies then weight back to the rear. My other horse, covering the same country, very similar in build, doesn't like me up there and prefers my weight more toward the cantle. Riding the horse is always a dynamic enterprise, I would think any conclusions with respect to tree, saddle fit, and horsemanship must be drawn from rider and horse in motion. Appears to me there are many many variables in a human navigating the country or arena from the back of a horse. Luckily for all the different tasks that we want to perform from the back of a horse there are plenty of varied makers to build the equipment needed.

Ben Knickerbocker