Tooled Purse

[FatSmitty]

Very nice!!! Bob if you don't mind giving up secrets or such, how do you do the round border pattern? Do you use a plain seeder or is that acheived with a Carlos border style tool? Thanks for any advice. I really enjoy viewing your work, there is nothing better IMHO than a true craftsman/artist making something that they put all their heart and soul into. Your work is a true benchmark in the leatherworking world.

Nevada

[BruceGibson]

Here is a project recently finished for the gear show in Elko. Made of 5/6 oz Hermann Oak and lined with 2/3 oz. Panels and bottom of gusset all have 4 mil styrene stiffeners.Shoulder strap lining, gusset exterior and interior lining all are finger carved. Sewn with 69 nylon thread. Sterling silver is from Silver King in CA . All critiques welcomed as always.

That's just flat-out amazing. Beautiful, as always Bobby.

[Athenah]

Oh wow, that is amazing. I would never use it as it is so beautiful!

[Jazznow]

Well i think it's time that somebody says something other than "amazing", "beautiful work" or "stunning"...

Alway read the same must be boring...

It'S the worst piece i have seen in the last uhm... 1 1/2 minutes.

But since it is the only piece i have seen in that time, it's the best, too

Now i stop joking and become serious (it's hard to me, but i'll try):

I'd like to be as good as you! I've got only respect and admiration for your skills and your work.

Keep on Carving!

Jonathan

[FiremanRob]

Three words... Oh My God...

[hidepounder]

Very nice!!! Bob if you don't mind giving up secrets or such, how do you do the round border pattern? Do you use a plain seeder or is that acheived with a Carlos border style tool? Thanks for any advice. I really enjoy viewing your work, there is nothing better IMHO than a true craftsman/artist making something that they put all their heart and soul into. Your work is a true benchmark in the leatherworking world.

Nevada

Thanks Nevada! That border is just a large seeder between two bead borders.

Take care....

Bobby

Thanks for all the great comments, everybody! You are too kind.........

Bobby

[Slickbald]

I got to see this in person today. The pictures don't do it justice! Great meeting you Bob!

[PANTHER]

Bob,

Just OUTSTANDING!!! Thank you for posting.

Panther

[kseidel]

Hey Bob,

Beautiful job on the handbag! Nice use of the border stamp. Decorative knife work adds great accent. The insides take a long time to make and I appreciate the amount of effort you put into them. I respect the amount of time it takes to make a piece like this. The time to do extra nice work multiplies!

Any critique on something this nice would be only personal preference. I feel that the maker mark on the back panel is unnecessary, as you already have one on the front panel. I would have liked to see it worked into the tooling with more imagination equal to the rest of the design. Also thread is a size smaller than I like on the construction of an item of this thickness. Silver hardware for the front closure and shoulder strap buckle are great. Matching hardware for the side strap attachments would have been a worthy finishing touch. Only my opinions... not criticism.

Is this a custom order or is it for sale? How much do you charge for this bag?

A beautiful job! Thank you for posting for us to admire.

Respectfully,

Keith

[gtwister09]

Bob,

For some reason I have missed this thread. I did see it on another forum. As you already know I am a huge fan of these types of "broken" borders that use any design elements like these seeded ones, beaded, ribbons, meandering (San Carlos), various combinations and so forth. I really like the beaded/seeded borders and especially the seeded borders that are graduated. I likewise appreciate and study your style.

I agree with Keith and others about the quality of the work as always. A beautiful job as Keith stated is certainly in order.

Keith pointed out three things and I would certainly agree with a couple of them. The hardware attachment for the straps were the very first thing that jumped out at me... my impression is that these just don't complement the rest of the silver work. Just something to consider to complete the "whole" impression. On the maker's mark on the back, I always struggle with placements but on this one my preference would be in line with Keith. As Keith stated these are preferences. I on the other hand respectfully disagree with Keith and do like the 69 thread on this piece. I might have tried 92 (this may be what Keith is alluding to or maybe a 138) but I would have had to look at it. As we have discussed many times I feel that people go too far the other direction and use "heavier" thread than needed as well as longer stitches. My preference for these type of items is smaller stitches per inch and smaller thread versus using a 207/277 thread and 5 stitches per inch. However with that said I have had people request a "saddle stitch" just like that for a wallet because they want it to look stout. I just feel (my preference) that the higher stitch count and lower thread sizes make products like purses, handbags, wallets, etc look more refined.

This piece is certainly a beautiful stunning piece.

Keith... I likewise like the refined look of your products as well. If you wouldn't mind sharing with us, I would like to know what thread and stitches per inch you would have utilized in this situation. I would also assume that you and your shop have some sort of standard that you utilize for not only these but other gear as well.

Regards,

Ben

[hidepounder]

Hey Bob,

Beautiful job on the handbag! Nice use of the border stamp. Decorative knife work adds great accent. The insides take a long time to make and I appreciate the amount of effort you put into them. I respect the amount of time it takes to make a piece like this. The time to do extra nice work multiplies!

Any critique on something this nice would be only personal preference. I feel that the maker mark on the back panel is unnecessary, as you already have one on the front panel. I would have liked to see it worked into the tooling with more imagination equal to the rest of the design. Also thread is a size smaller than I like on the construction of an item of this thickness. Silver hardware for the front closure and shoulder strap buckle are great. Matching hardware for the side strap attachments would have been a worthy finishing touch. Only my opinions... not criticism.

Is this a custom order or is it for sale? How much do you charge for this bag?

A beautiful job! Thank you for posting for us to admire.

Respectfully,

Keith

Hi Keith....

Thanks for your comments. I'm always glad to hear from you and I respect your opinion. You're so right about the time these pieces take. I've done enough of them to know better and I still under estimate what it takes to build the interiors, LOL.

You know I hadn't given the makers stamp much thought and now in retrospect I have to agree with you. That's a good tip!

Jill and I both agree with you about the side strap attachments also. When the bag was finished, the lack of attention there was obvious. Unfortunately, at that point it was too late to get swivels made....now I think we will.

I made the bag specifically for the gear show in Elko as I had to be there for the carving class anyway and we won our category. The price for the bag is $2000.

Thanks Keith...

Bobby

[hidepounder]

Bob,

For some reason I have missed this thread. I did see it on another forum. As you already know I am a huge fan of these types of "broken" borders that use any design elements like these seeded ones, beaded, ribbons, meandering (San Carlos), various combinations and so forth. I really like the beaded/seeded borders and especially the seeded borders that are graduated. I likewise appreciate and study your style.

I agree with Keith and others about the quality of the work as always. A beautiful job as Keith stated is certainly in order.

Keith pointed out three things and I would certainly agree with a couple of them. The hardware attachment for the straps were the very first thing that jumped out at me... my impression is that these just don't complement the rest of the silver work. Just something to consider to complete the "whole" impression. On the maker's mark on the back, I always struggle with placements but on this one my preference would be in line with Keith. As Keith stated these are preferences. I on the other hand respectfully disagree with Keith and do like the 69 thread on this piece. I might have tried 92 (this may be what Keith is alluding to or maybe a 138) but I would have had to look at it. As we have discussed many times I feel that people go too far the other direction and use "heavier" thread than needed as well as longer stitches. My preference for these type of items is smaller stitches per inch and smaller thread versus using a 207/277 thread and 5 stitches per inch. However with that said I have had people request a "saddle stitch" just like that for a wallet because they want it to look stout. I just feel (my preference) that the higher stitch count and lower thread sizes make products like purses, handbags, wallets, etc look more refined.

This piece is certainly a beautiful stunning piece.

Keith... I likewise like the refined look of your products as well. If you wouldn't mind sharing with us, I would like to know what thread and stitches per inch you would have utilized in this situation. I would also assume that you and your shop have some sort of standard that you utilize for not only these but other gear as well.

Regards,

Ben

Hi Ben and thanks!

Yes we both enjoy some of those "old timey" borders. It is hard to come up with new ones to use....everything has already been done at one time or another so we have to resurrrect some of the old stuff.

Sometimes I have a hard time deciding what thread size to use. As time goes by I seem to be drawn to smaller and smaller thread and I sometimes wonder if I'm getting carried away. It seems I'm always going to some extreme or another, LOL! I'm not sure what size thread Keith would have used on something like this, but I can tell you about something he and a few others do that I really like. Keith often will antique over the thread so that it is colored to match the rest of the piece. The sewing still looks refined and decorative, however, there is less contrast and everything blends better. I have come to really like that effect.

Thanks for your comments Ben!

Bobby

[kseidel]

Keith... I likewise like the refined look of your products as well. If you wouldn't mind sharing with us, I would like to know what thread and stitches per inch you would have utilized in this situation. I would also assume that you and your shop have some sort of standard that you utilize for not only these but other gear as well.

Regards,

Ben

On items like this I use 138 thread top and bottom and stitch at 10 stitches per inch. For saddles, I use 277 on top and 207 bottom and stitch at 8 stitches per inch. On strap goods requiring a bit heavier thread, I use 207 top and bottom and stitch at 9-10 stitches per inch. I like tighter stitching and a thread size that fills the needle holes, so I tend to use smaller needles and awls relative to thread size.

Hi Keith....

Thanks for your comments. I'm always glad to hear from you and I respect your opinion. You're so right about the time these pieces take. I've done enough of them to know better and I still under estimate what it takes to build the interiors, LOL.

You know I hadn't given the makers stamp much thought and now in retrospect I have to agree with you. That's a good tip!

Jill and I both agree with you about the side strap attachments also. When the bag was finished, the lack of attention there was obvious. Unfortunately, at that point it was too late to get swivels made....now I think we will.

I made the bag specifically for the gear show in Elko as I had to be there for the carving class anyway and we won our category. The price for the bag is $2000.

Thanks Keith...

Bobby

Bob,

I wrestle with maker stamp placement. I don't want my name all over an article, but I want it some place that it can be found, but not be the focal point. I usually put it under a flap like you have on your front panel. Some makers have put their mark in a flower center and some put shell borders around the stamp..., I just have not settled on how I like it best for me.

I made a new handbag for my wife about a year ago, and at the last minute realized I needed silver and engraved rings for the handle. Thankfully I did not have a deadline to meet. I spent so much time making the insides and getting the construction precise that it made it less than profitable. I determined that I would charge $4500 for one like it. (It had a $1000 multi color gold concho on the front) I really do not care if I never have to make another one. HAHA

I'm not sure what size thread Keith would have used on something like this, but I can tell you about something he and a few others do that I really like. Keith often will antique over the thread so that it is colored to match the rest of the piece. The sewing still looks refined and decorative, however, there is less contrast and everything blends better. I have come to really like that effect.

In addition, I use natural color thread. I like the look of linen thread, but do not like it for durability. So I use a natural color of nylon thread.

Question for you Bob....

You have a section of basket stamping on the back panel between two finished panels. Is there an outside back pocket? Why did you chose this type of construction?

Always great to talk with you guys.

Keith

[kid terico]

Hidepounder thats some beautiful work your showing. Great design and carving. KT

[gtwister09]

Bob,

Thanks! It really doesn't matter how old the patterns are but how we creatively apply them in new and refreshing ways. You have successfully accomplished that!

I have studied Keith's pictures, web site and such and see exactly what you are saying about the blended stitching as well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keith,

Thank you for the response. I tend to favor straight, deep-set and completely filled thread holes. This to me is the ultimate quality thread. My next choice would be a slanted one that is deep set and has a filled thread hole or ones that are partially visible. I likewise utilize the stitch counts that you use as well as sticking to smaller needles (usually have to use them to have filled stitch holes).

Your thread selections are certainly in line with what I consider more refined looking stitching on various pieces of gear. Likewise a compiled listing from numerous sources confirms your selection as well. Of course going from the 69 to 138 thread you have doubled the strength of stitching.

A question for both of you... Do you guys consider using 92 thread or do you use the others due to availability?

Regards,

Ben

[kseidel]

I use 92/99 thread for a lot of things, since most of my work is done with hard leather (skirting), I like the 92/99 size best for smaller items. I seldom use 69 for hard leathers. I do use 69 for light weight leathers and garment leathers. Heavier chap still gets 99 or even 138.

As for needle holes, I like angle holes. I set my awls at an angle for hook and awl machines, and use leather left needles for straight needle machines. I can get closer stitches with angle holes without "cutting" the stitch line. Besides, I like the look.

Keith

[hidepounder]

Bob,

I wrestle with maker stamp placement. I don't want my name all over an article, but I want it some place that it can be found, but not be the focal point. I usually put it under a flap like you have on your front panel. Some makers have put their mark in a flower center and some put shell borders around the stamp..., I just have not settled on how I like it best for me.

I made a new handbag for my wife about a year ago, and at the last minute realized I needed silver and engraved rings for the handle. Thankfully I did not have a deadline to meet. I spent so much time making the insides and getting the construction precise that it made it less than profitable. I determined that I would charge $4500 for one like it. (It had a $1000 multi color gold concho on the front) I really do not care if I never have to make another one. HAHA

In addition, I use natural color thread. I like the look of linen thread, but do not like it for durability. So I use a natural color of nylon thread.

Question for you Bob....

You have a section of basket stamping on the back panel between two finished panels. Is there an outside back pocket? Why did you chose this type of construction?

I can't tell you why I put my makers stamp on twice....I don't have an explanation for that. It does seem redundant. Maybe I'm compensating for all the times I forgot to use it. :>) I struggle with how to present it also. I told Jill it must be time for a new stamp because I'm always trying to dress this one up. I am starting to settle on leaving it plain when I incorporate it into a tooling pattern and adding some decoration when it occurs in a geometric pattern.

Price is always difficult for me. I really wanted this hand bag to sell quickly so I reduced my shop rate and didn't mark-up the silver. I even signed my patterns and included them in the deal so that they could never be duplicated. My hourly wage on this one is pitiful! The next one will cost considerably more, LOL!

Yes, there is an outside pocket on the back of the bag. Are you are asking why I put a seam at the back of the flap? Partly because it allows me to make better use of my leather, however, the real truth is I like the way it looks. I think it adds a little interest. On the next one I am going to try to skive the edges where the outside pocket attaches so that the width of the burnished edge remains consistent along the entire length. Seems there is always something to improve on!

A question for both of you... Do you guys consider using 92 thread or do you use the others due to availability?

Regards,

Ben

I like 92 thread and use it a lot. It would have been my next choice for thread size on the hand bag. Something I have discovered (you all probably already know this) is that if I think my stitching looks a little too light, a few passes over it with a stitching wheel makes it appear to be a heavier thread.

As for needle holes, I like angle holes. I set my awls at an angle for hook and awl machines, and use leather left needles for straight needle machines. I can get closer stitches with angle holes without "cutting" the stitch line. Besides, I like the look.

Keith

I'm going to go back to your site to look again, but, I'm not sure I understand about "left" needles. I do use some leather needles, but is there a difference which direction they twist? I'm so ignorant, LOL!!

Troy told me a little while back about using "natural colored" thread which I thought was a good idea. Then when we were all talking in Elko, I discovered that everyone is using "natural colored" thread and I am the only guy still using white thread. I never got the memo!!!! Anyway, so now I'm ordering all new thread.....It's tough to keep up with you guys, LOL! BTW.....do you prefer nylon or polyester and is there a brand you prefer?

Love these discussions!!!!

Bobby

[gtwister09]

Bob/Keith,

Thanks for the responses. Even though many of the sites no longer list 92/99 in their needle and thread combinations, I am glad to hear that people are still using it. In talking with several makers around here many of them have said that they were tending away from the 92/99 thread in favor of the 138 or the 69. They also were headed to all natural thread instead of white except for special items.

Bob,

I assume that Keith is referring to the LL needle point. There are also some others that come close as well. Take a look at that document that I sent you that shows the point, stitch, needle, slant, fill and set in a matrix format. There you can see what they look like as compared to your R, S and LR needles. You will notice on the stitch appearance that the LL is a straight seam with filled stitch holes as well as denoted in the stitch and fill columns.

In that you will also see the comparisons for nylon versus polyester (bonded and so forth).

On the compensating and making up for missed makers marks in the past. That is as good a reason as any.

Regards,

Ben

Edited February 22, 2011 by gtwister09

[Shelly]

Bob/Keith,

Thanks for the responses. Even though many of the sites no longer list 92/99 in their needle and thread combinations, I am glad to hear that people are still using it. In talking with several makers around here many of them have said that they were tending away from the 92/99 thread in favor of the 138 or the 69. They also were headed to all natural thread instead of white except for special items.

Bob,

I assume that Keith is referring to the LL needle point. There are also some others that come close as well. Take a look at that document that I sent you that shows the point, stitch, needle, slant, fill and set in a matrix format. There you can see what they look like as compared to your R, S and LR needles. You will notice on the stitch appearance that the LL is a straight seam with filled stitch holes as well as denoted in the stitch and fill columns.

In that you will also see the comparisons for nylon versus polyester (bonded and so forth).

On the compensating and making up for missed makers marks in the past. That is as good a reason as any.

Regards,

Ben

Keith has been very helpful to me, regarding thread, type of thread, and sizes of needles, awls, and thread combos...I would like to see your document - do you have it posted somewhere, or do you send privately? I have a flatbed Consew that I stitch some light stuff with - mainly chap leathers - running 138 on top, and 92 on the bottom...a Schmetz needle size 130 - has a 3-sided chisel point...have always wondered if I would have prettier stitching with a different needle...what do you, Keith, and Bob think? What would you suggest?

Edited February 22, 2011 by Shelly

[kseidel]

I can't tell you why I put my makers stamp on twice....I don't have an explanation for that. It does seem redundant. Maybe I'm compensating for all the times I forgot to use it. :>) I struggle with how to present it also. I told Jill it must be time for a new stamp because I'm always trying to dress this one up. I am starting to settle on leaving it plain when I incorporate it into a tooling pattern and adding some decoration when it occurs in a geometric pattern.

Price is always difficult for me. I really wanted this hand bag to sell quickly so I reduced my shop rate and didn't mark-up the silver. I even signed my patterns and included them in the deal so that they could never be duplicated. My hourly wage on this one is pitiful! The next one will cost considerably more, LOL!

Yes, there is an outside pocket on the back of the bag. Are you are asking why I put a seam at the back of the flap? Partly because it allows me to make better use of my leather, however, the real truth is I like the way it looks. I think it adds a little interest. On the next one I am going to try to skive the edges where the outside pocket attaches so that the width of the burnished edge remains consistent along the entire length. Seems there is always something to improve on!

I like 92 thread and use it a lot. It would have been my next choice for thread size on the hand bag. Something I have discovered (you all probably already know this) is that if I think my stitching looks a little too light, a few passes over it with a stitching wheel makes it appear to be a heavier thread.

I'm going to go back to your site to look again, but, I'm not sure I understand about "left" needles. I do use some leather needles, but is there a difference which direction they twist? I'm so ignorant, LOL!!

Troy told me a little while back about using "natural colored" thread which I thought was a good idea. Then when we were all talking in Elko, I discovered that everyone is using "natural colored" thread and I am the only guy still using white thread. I never got the memo!!!! Anyway, so now I'm ordering all new thread.....It's tough to keep up with you guys, LOL! BTW.....do you prefer nylon or polyester and is there a brand you prefer?

Love these discussions!!!!

Bobby

HaHaHa You make me laugh this morning! All of those things you are saying, I feel the same about! Especially about keeping up with the pack and not getting the "memo." I do not get them either! When I do, I will be sure to forward it to you.

Sewing machine needles are available in a plethora of styles. "S" point, "tri" point, "round" point, etc. LL (leather left) and LR (leather right) are chisel point needles that angle to left or right. I usually have to special order them. With the hook and awl machines, I use the chisel point awls and set them at an angle to achieve the same effect. Left or Right is personal preference. I use Left because it tracks straighter in the hook and awl machines. So I got the same look with the other machines by getting LL needles.

I have been using Natural colored thread for nearly 20 years now, and it seems many others are doing the same. It is still hard to find in stock from most suppliers. I got mine from Eddington Thread Co. and they had a 25# minimum per size So I have a pretty good stock on hand. I do prefer Synthetic thread co., but they are harder to special order from and I have not found any supplier who stocks the sizes I want in the colors I want. I like a thread that is medium in stiffness. Soft and limp frays and unravels too easilly, and too stiff does not always lay well into the hook points, ending up in missed stitches, so for me medium lay works best. Also, I like lots of lubricant and that too varies between manufacturer. I have used both poly and nylon, and, though there certainly is a difference, I do not have a real strong preference.

Love your comment about making up for times you forgot to use your maker stamp. There are so many times I have not planned for that stamp and had no place to put it! I love reading historians write about how a certain maker never made anything without his maker mark.... just proves how little they know about the real world of craftsmanship.

Price? I think every time I make a purse, the price doubles for the "next one." I suppose I will never make any profit! And you are so right that there is always something to improve upon. It can be exasperating at times!

I have enjoyed this exchange with you and the others. Thanks for brightening my day.

Keith

[Billy H]

Hey Bobby,

Looks like some- things went to Cyber world last night.

Thought you might want mention the classes you will give at Sheridan again.

[hidepounder]

Hey Bobby,

Looks like some- things went to Cyber world last night.

Thought you might want mention the classes you will give at Sheridan again.

Hi Billy.....

I noticed that here were several posts that disappeared. Anyway, having had a great experience in Wickenburg I have agreed to teach at Sheridan this year and I'm already excited about it. I will repeat Finishing Edges and Basic Floral Design. Both of those classes filled up quickly in Wickenburg and I felt they went well. I am also doing a Swivel Knife class and we haven't determined if it will be a half day or whole day yet. There is also some discussion about doing a carving class but we'll see. Thanks Billy for giving me a chance to mention the classes.

Bobby

[bruce johnson]

There were some hardware updates last night on the host server and some of the posts put up yesterday were lost from time of the last backup until the new hardware came on. It is a pain, but hey, not anything like the entire meltdown a few years ago. Thanks for reposting.

[hidepounder]

There were some hardware updates last night on the host server and some of the posts put up yesterday were lost from time of the last backup until the new hardware came on. It is a pain, but hey, not anything like the entire meltdown a few years ago. Thanks for reposting.

Hi Bruce! You're right it could have been a lot worse. Missed you at Wickenburg!

Bobby

[Bar C Leather]

Hey Bobby... Of course, at risk of a little redundancy I'll say; awesome work! Would you mind sharing your antique methods with us? I've tried a few different methods and I'm not sure if I'm not applying enough oil or neat lac/ super sheen etc. but I always tend to get a little darker effect than I'd like and sometimes too much "character" if you will. I think the 'character may have been partially due to the fact I wasn't using the highest quality leather (just got my first large order of WC today after trying my first side of HO...excited to try it out!) I want to barely be able to tell there's added color, leaving only a light brown look and of course I know that antiquing really accents the tooling. Basically I want mine to look like yours!! HA HA. Of course I've got work on the actual tooling but until I can reach that caliber, at least I'd like the antique to look good!

Thank you for your guidance, you are clearly a mentor and an idol to many here!! It's awesome that artists like yourself are willing to share some of your secrets.

EDIT!! ~~ Okay... did some research and found some info on old posts. I see that you recommend cleaning with oxalic acid. I've got some and have used it but could you tell what dilution you use? I've read one teaspoon per cup of water but not sure where I read that!! What kind of gloves do you use for that, I've had it eat through a kitchen glove but I suppose I could have been rubbing too hard with an old glove???

I also see that you possibly oil before sealing with resist/sealant. What oil do you prefer? Is there a magic number of coats? I have been doing one light coat but how do I know what is too light? Does it make a huge difference?

I also see that you use Fiebings Paste and that all of your applications for sealant and paste are wool scrap as well as paste removal and buffing, got that part down!

Again...THANK YOU!

Edited March 16, 2011 by Bar C Leather