"can I Have Your Design?"

[TwinOaks]

That part of it ISN'T surprising to me. One of the things about this craft is the ability to get something totally unique. That quality is what allows us to keep doing what we're doing. It's not a bad thing at all. If you were to purchase an item designed and carved by Bob Park, and paid $x amount for it, you would be pretty ticked off if you found out you could have bought the same thing from me for 1/3 the price. If I could get his designs, that would directly cut into Hidepounder's profit margin. Would you like to have YOUR profit margins slashed because somebody decided they can sell YOUR design cheaper than you can? A perfect example of this is curved belts. A while back, the topic came up on here as several people were making curved belts. They fit better, they required less break-in period, and were typically more comfortable, and wore better because the belt didn't need to be stretched to get the natural curvature that belts get from being worn. I think most makers were at or above the $50 mark for a good quality belt. Guess what you can NOW pick up at ChinaMart for under $10? Pasted back, poorly finished, dried out drum dyed Crap leather belts. Someone took a design (biting tongue on other comments here....) and started mass producing them. Now the leathercrafters who helped develop that design are losing business because of it. We're having to push the edge on design and development a little further with every product, and squeeze every bit of profit from it before somebody else reverse engineers our designs and steals the money from our pockets. [deep inhale] Okay, rant off. Now, is sharing a design necessarily a bad thing? No. There's some things that are ubiquitous enough that there's no longer any secret to them. Wallets are an example. Some long while back, somebody was looking for a wallet pattern. Working off the design elements of Kevin King, I drew up a simple wallet pattern and posted it here. Did I cut into anyone's profits? Not likely, as the design was very basic and only a layout pattern. No material requirements, no special designs, etc. One could look at a store bought wallet and figure it out IF they'd spent enough time building different things out of leather. So, I guess I "open sourced" that particular design......which wasn't all that original to begin with. If I had KK's design notebook, complete with measurements for the overlays, inlays, and all the little things he does that makes his products so unique, and posted those.....then I would have been getting into his pocket. His ability do design new things is what keeps him in demand. There's only so many things you can do with leather, only so many ways to wrap it around a person, or a blade, or a gun, or money and credit cards. The "it" factor of any designer's work is where they make their name and money. If someone has "it" for a while and they're using the designs to make money......I don't blame them at all for not wanting to share that info.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I look at this a different way. Would the people that shop at China Mart pay $50 for a custom belt in the first place? Probably not, that is why they shop where they do. People who look for quality will pay for it.

As to the holster design. The internet has changed this ball game all together. Anyone could pay for one pattern than copy it, and post it up. A copyright is only good if you have the $$ to enforce it. Have you priced an attorney lately? I had to contact one on a totally different matter, and he charges $300 per hr. I weighed the cost benefit value, and dropped it. The only person that was going to benefit was the attorney.

Now that the picture of the holster is up on the net, anyone can make a good copy, if they know the basics of holster making. Download the pic, scale it up to size, and you have the basic pattern. Even easier if you took multiple angles, or were proud enough of the item to discuss the quality details. Here is what I would do. Share the pattern. Later if you need to make a living off that holster you still can since it is your quality, your name, and your skills that will hopefully differentiate your holster for the other ones. I can look at a Bianchi holster, a Gucci purse, or whatever else I want to in a store, and start to reverse engineer the construction. I don't know any craftsmen who don't do that.

When I go to craft shows I am looking for things that I like. If I find something that I like I will take a picture, or make notes, so that I can make it at home. By nature those of us that have skills to create like to make things ourselves, and are called craftsmen. Those who do not have the skills to create are called consumers. Maybe toss your design into the ring, and just have your name attached to it as the designer.

I don't know how large of a market there will be for custom holsters for surplus CZ82's to use it as a fall back. I love my E.German Makarov, but it resides in an original surplus holster. I sold a lot of original unissued Mak holsters for $5 that I got for $1 ea. How many people out there do you think would make a holster of your design? 10? 100? 1000? and how many of them would you be able to sell one of your holsters to , if you chose to sell them at your price? If you don't want to give up the design, just post a price, and tell the forum members that you are ready to start selling them completed holsters. If you wait too long, someone else will,IF there is a ready market. Why wait to use it as a possible all back if you can sell them now? Go get the $$ while it is available. When tough times hit your customer may be broke too, get to them when they do have extra cash. You may find out that your holster is a hit, or you may only sell a couple. Better to find out now than when you are relying on it to feed you,and your family.

Edited March 27, 2011 by BIGGUNDOCTOR

[dirtclod]

Thing is do you want to give away something that you have spent a few minutes to a few hours designing ? Not counting the materail you may or may not of messed up to get the design right. It seems the world has turned into a give me that or i want that give it to me. Most don't want to take the time to make a pattern of even try to make a pattern. I know on here i have told several folks how i would make a pattern they wanted but they say they can't make a pattern. Well i wonder if they even tried to make one ? I'll be the first to admit that i have took patterns i bought and copied them and most of the time changed them some to make it work better for me. Bottom line is if your going to make custom items you need to be able to make your own pattern. Their not hard to make it just takes some time and you will get better at it.

[MdB Leatherworks]

It's not necessarily a cz82 pattern- I use it for other pistols as well (in that size range). I see your point though.

[TwinOaks]

Yep, I couldn't make patterns either.....until I did. Now, I have an idea of what I want to make, and start from there. I don't have any set patterns to use, it's all in my head. So when a customer watches me make something, there's a lot more mystique in how I know where to cut and stitch.

[albane]

I feel that a particular topic has been left out of this conversation .

As leather workers, we are all copycats at first,.and with time and experience, we become designers.

Many of the beginners of this forum are asking for information when it is already available on the Web, but they are unwilling to do the research themselves.

A while go, there was a thread concerning the French rolled edge on a wallet . I suggested that the poster do some research himself, share his results with us and we would help him along.

The poster was unwilling to do the basic research that it would take to develop the minimum skills and advance his project along. . I was roundly criticized and the thread was closed.

We are now facing a similar situation. A novice is asking for complete instructions and information, but he is unwilling to do the basic research himself. I would suggest that he make the gun holster, show us his work, then we can use our vast collection of knowledge and experience to help him clean up his design . Through trial and error, we gain valuable experience; we've all done it before and will do it again.

My perspective is easy to understand. If you are willing to put in the time and effort I will gladly help you.

[K-Man]

Welcome to the real world of holster making.

I looked at the thread on that forum. Your holster design is not something new or unique, and has been previously made by a number of holster makers. So I don't know that you'd have any legal grounds to any protection in that respect.

I'm not saying that you cloned someone else's design intentionally. Oftentimes a person has an epiphany on what they think is a unique design, and later come to find out that they're doing the same thing that someone else has done long before them.

IMO, you're choices are to draw up a tutorial of sorts for the forum or tell them you're not interested.

[MarkB]

I will say this that there is money to be had in patterns if your willing to share them. I sell patterns now and people are just as willing to spend money on patterns as they are the finished product.there are those that need patterns to learn from and those that will not make but buy the finished product. make money two ways.

[particle]

I've been asked to sell my patterns, but my typical response is to direct them here, refer them to the Stohlman holster book, and let them know I'd be happy to help them generate their own patterns. I've debated selling them, but haven't gotten around to it yet. One time, I told the guy I'd sell my pattern for something like $40, and he would not be allowed to sell holsters built from my pattern (since I make and sell holsters from the same patterns) - they would only be for personal use. This guy had already admitted he was planning on making and selling holsters generated from my patterns. His response was that other makers were willing to sell their patterns for half that cost, and didn't care if he sold the holsters he'd made from those patterns.

You know, maybe I should track that guy down and see who he's buying his patterns from... Might save me a lot of work making my own patterns! LOL

[Big O]

I can see where that would be an issue when you're cranking out more than a dozen holsters a week, using godawful expensive machinery (which is the only way that works).

I'm still at the stage where I'm only producing a few holsters a MONTH, and doing it entirely by hand. Well...HANDS....both my own. I draw up a new pattern from scratch for every holster. I guess if someone wanted to buy a pattern from me, I'd have no problem with it. I just don't see why anyone would even WANT one or two pieces of file folder material with holes poked in it, though.......representing a design that was made to fit an entirely different person, with entirely different needs......