"can I Have Your Design?"

[MdB Leatherworks]

In another forum I posted a picture of a holster I made:

Among the "Nice job" and "good work" posts, therre was this one:

"Actually, that is one beautiful holster. Nice work. VERY nice, in fact.

For those of us who can follow directions, did you ever consider open-sourcing a design, and publishing it as a PDF? I, for one, would likely be able to make it...it's the design process where I would fall down. Devil's in the details, y'know.

A series of community designed holsters for our beloved CZ82 would likely be a welcome addition."

Something just irritated me about this one. Here was my reply:

"I dunno... my leatherwork is kind of a "fallback position" if I should ever lose my job. I'm not sure I want to give away a design that I might have to rely on to feed my kids and pay my bills.

I might think about selling a DIY kit, though... "

I thought about it a bit and then posted this next:

"I'd also be willing to answer any holster design questions anyone has, or give advice on making them. After all, people helped ME when I needed it."

Here was the reply I got:

"Well, I did say *a* design. A few donations like that from a few members (XXXXXXX, for example, has also made holsters) and we'd have a library of designs from which to choose. The library could be expanded to include holsters for common pistols like the 82/83, various 75, etc.

Bottom line...your design is nice. However, your leatherworking skills are magnificent...it looks, not just "homemade" servicable, but beautiful. Even giving away the design, it is unlikely to noticeably impact your potential sales, because of your skill and the obvious quality of your product.

Anyway, the open source thing was just an idea. And, judging from the almost immediate response, it seems to be something that would be welcomed by the community. Heck, if I knew how to design a holster I'd start the ball rolling, myself."

I then said:

"I'd happily do a tutorial on holster making and design, if that would help."

Am I wrong here? I get where he's coming from- that forum is about a certain pistol, and there aren't a lot of folks making a holster for it. Having an open source design WOULD benefit them. On the other hand, how can you expect someone to just give away a design they developed? I get his point about skill, but it still doesn't sit right somehow...

Edited March 26, 2011 by MdB Leatherworks

[CitizenKate]

Open source, huh?... Another way of asking for a freebie. It's not out of line for this person to ask for the pattern, but is out of line to expect it, or to discredit you if you choose not to. It's entirely up to your own discretion whether to share it or not, or if you do share it, to offer it for a fee (assuming you have the legal right to do that).

Kate

[dirtclod]

Why not tell them about leatherworker.net and let them learn to make their own patterns and share their ideals ? Lots of things i don't mind shareing but others i'm not going to share. This is how i make my living. Sometimes it's great. business is good and i'm eating high on the hog and sometimes business is not so hot it's beans and cornbread.

[TwinOaks]

If you are making holsters as part of your income, then NO, don't give away the design. If they want one of your holsters, you can give them a discount as forum members, though. If you make a good quality product, don't be afraid to ask people to pay for it. If the guy tells you that you have to do it, or that it's 'only right'......well, tell him how much leather, thread, and hardware you used. Then ask what he's contributed to "open source".

I'm afraid that to say much more about it would violate LW's 'no politics' policy. You're idea of a DIY kit is a pretty good one, and worth pursuing. I recently had the manager of a FedEx ask if he could buy leather from me to make a Nook cover. I asked some questions and returned with ~2 sq. ft. of 4oz veg tan, uncut and in a roll. I priced it at a little above retail and had to restrain myself when he asked me where the sewing holes were, why it wasn't cut out in a pattern, and why it wasn't colored and finished. With that in mind, you'll probably want to include VERY SPECIFIC instructions.

[bkingery]

I'm with Mike, your design is your design if you want to give it away or not is up to you. The DIY kit is a very good idea also BUT how many of us have bought DIY kits from Tandy, then made a copy of the leather and then piecemealed the rest from what we have, I have and I bet almost everyone on here has at one point or another, how many crap holsters get bought at walmart and then torn apart, copied and remade better. Thats how we learn.

If you made the pattern and instructions then you would have an instuction pack and then the same thing would apply, unless you get a copyright which would take you years and lots of money people are going to use it, probably quite a bit.

Then there is the other thing with those of use that can figure it out on our own by looking at your pictures and then it would look Close to yours but wouldn't be close at all because all they have to do is change one thing and then it's not your design anymore.

I don't think I would do anything with it but if they keep bugging you then I would do a pattern pack and sell it on ebay or something, you probably could make a killing.

Just my opinion, I don't make Holsters

YET

Bryan

Edited March 26, 2011 by bkingery

[Eaglestroker]

Why not tell them about leatherworker.net and let them learn to make their own patterns and share their ideals ? Lots of things i don't mind shareing but others i'm not going to share. This is how i make my living. Sometimes it's great. business is good and i'm eating high on the hog and sometimes business is not so hot it's beans and cornbread.

I will second this. That is how I was turned onto this forum and it has been an awesome resource and the members I have personally spoken with have no problem going out of their way to help. It's pretty obvious you don't 'owe' them anything so that is personal discretion.

[MdB Leatherworks]

I think that what I'll do is write up a tutorial on basic holster design and construction. After all, I learned how to make holsters by reading tutorials that someone else wrote- it's only right that I help others get started. I have no issue teaching someone how to come up with their own design, but I won't give away the ones I developed.

Thanks for the advice!

[Deaf Ranger]

Why not tell them about leatherworker.net and let them learn to make their own patterns and share their ideals ? Lots of things i don't mind shareing but others i'm not going to share. This is how i make my living. Sometimes it's great. business is good and i'm eating high on the hog and sometimes business is not so hot it's beans and cornbread.

I thought beans and cornbread was high on the hog. Wink.

[TwinOaks]

That depends on the cornbread, now doesn't it?

[electrathon]

What has really surprised me with leatherwork is that so few peole are willing to SELL their patterns. It seems to me that it is a huge source of income to someone with the talent to draw them up. Tandy basicly sells totally outdated patterns that were drawn long ago. Think about it like if your wife went into the fabric store and bought a pattern to make you a shirt. The pattern was drawn up on 1953. She comments to the store that it seems like someone in the last 50 years must have drawn up more modern looking shirt patterns. The store owner looks at her and tells her to learn how to draw patterns up herself. I do realize that there are people who sew that can and do draw patterns, many more can't. Many leatherworkers are copy people. I can copy well, I have no talent to draw.

[TwinOaks]

That part of it ISN'T surprising to me. One of the things about this craft is the ability to get something totally unique. That quality is what allows us to keep doing what we're doing. It's not a bad thing at all. If you were to purchase an item designed and carved by Bob Park, and paid $x amount for it, you would be pretty ticked off if you found out you could have bought the same thing from me for 1/3 the price. If I could get his designs, that would directly cut into Hidepounder's profit margin. Would you like to have YOUR profit margins slashed because somebody decided they can sell YOUR design cheaper than you can? A perfect example of this is curved belts. A while back, the topic came up on here as several people were making curved belts. They fit better, they required less break-in period, and were typically more comfortable, and wore better because the belt didn't need to be stretched to get the natural curvature that belts get from being worn. I think most makers were at or above the $50 mark for a good quality belt. Guess what you can NOW pick up at ChinaMart for under $10? Pasted back, poorly finished, dried out drum dyed Crap leather belts. Someone took a design (biting tongue on other comments here....) and started mass producing them. Now the leathercrafters who helped develop that design are losing business because of it. We're having to push the edge on design and development a little further with every product, and squeeze every bit of profit from it before somebody else reverse engineers our designs and steals the money from our pockets. [deep inhale] Okay, rant off. Now, is sharing a design necessarily a bad thing? No. There's some things that are ubiquitous enough that there's no longer any secret to them. Wallets are an example. Some long while back, somebody was looking for a wallet pattern. Working off the design elements of Kevin King, I drew up a simple wallet pattern and posted it here. Did I cut into anyone's profits? Not likely, as the design was very basic and only a layout pattern. No material requirements, no special designs, etc. One could look at a store bought wallet and figure it out IF they'd spent enough time building different things out of leather. So, I guess I "open sourced" that particular design......which wasn't all that original to begin with. If I had KK's design notebook, complete with measurements for the overlays, inlays, and all the little things he does that makes his products so unique, and posted those.....then I would have been getting into his pocket. His ability do design new things is what keeps him in demand. There's only so many things you can do with leather, only so many ways to wrap it around a person, or a blade, or a gun, or money and credit cards. The "it" factor of any designer's work is where they make their name and money. If someone has "it" for a while and they're using the designs to make money......I don't blame them at all for not wanting to share that info.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I look at this a different way. Would the people that shop at China Mart pay $50 for a custom belt in the first place? Probably not, that is why they shop where they do. People who look for quality will pay for it.

As to the holster design. The internet has changed this ball game all together. Anyone could pay for one pattern than copy it, and post it up. A copyright is only good if you have the $$ to enforce it. Have you priced an attorney lately? I had to contact one on a totally different matter, and he charges $300 per hr. I weighed the cost benefit value, and dropped it. The only person that was going to benefit was the attorney.

Now that the picture of the holster is up on the net, anyone can make a good copy, if they know the basics of holster making. Download the pic, scale it up to size, and you have the basic pattern. Even easier if you took multiple angles, or were proud enough of the item to discuss the quality details. Here is what I would do. Share the pattern. Later if you need to make a living off that holster you still can since it is your quality, your name, and your skills that will hopefully differentiate your holster for the other ones. I can look at a Bianchi holster, a Gucci purse, or whatever else I want to in a store, and start to reverse engineer the construction. I don't know any craftsmen who don't do that.

When I go to craft shows I am looking for things that I like. If I find something that I like I will take a picture, or make notes, so that I can make it at home. By nature those of us that have skills to create like to make things ourselves, and are called craftsmen. Those who do not have the skills to create are called consumers. Maybe toss your design into the ring, and just have your name attached to it as the designer.

I don't know how large of a market there will be for custom holsters for surplus CZ82's to use it as a fall back. I love my E.German Makarov, but it resides in an original surplus holster. I sold a lot of original unissued Mak holsters for $5 that I got for $1 ea. How many people out there do you think would make a holster of your design? 10? 100? 1000? and how many of them would you be able to sell one of your holsters to , if you chose to sell them at your price? If you don't want to give up the design, just post a price, and tell the forum members that you are ready to start selling them completed holsters. If you wait too long, someone else will,IF there is a ready market. Why wait to use it as a possible all back if you can sell them now? Go get the $$ while it is available. When tough times hit your customer may be broke too, get to them when they do have extra cash. You may find out that your holster is a hit, or you may only sell a couple. Better to find out now than when you are relying on it to feed you,and your family.

Edited March 27, 2011 by BIGGUNDOCTOR

[dirtclod]

Thing is do you want to give away something that you have spent a few minutes to a few hours designing ? Not counting the materail you may or may not of messed up to get the design right. It seems the world has turned into a give me that or i want that give it to me. Most don't want to take the time to make a pattern of even try to make a pattern. I know on here i have told several folks how i would make a pattern they wanted but they say they can't make a pattern. Well i wonder if they even tried to make one ? I'll be the first to admit that i have took patterns i bought and copied them and most of the time changed them some to make it work better for me. Bottom line is if your going to make custom items you need to be able to make your own pattern. Their not hard to make it just takes some time and you will get better at it.

[MdB Leatherworks]

It's not necessarily a cz82 pattern- I use it for other pistols as well (in that size range). I see your point though.

[TwinOaks]

Yep, I couldn't make patterns either.....until I did. Now, I have an idea of what I want to make, and start from there. I don't have any set patterns to use, it's all in my head. So when a customer watches me make something, there's a lot more mystique in how I know where to cut and stitch.

[albane]

I feel that a particular topic has been left out of this conversation .

As leather workers, we are all copycats at first,.and with time and experience, we become designers.

Many of the beginners of this forum are asking for information when it is already available on the Web, but they are unwilling to do the research themselves.

A while go, there was a thread concerning the French rolled edge on a wallet . I suggested that the poster do some research himself, share his results with us and we would help him along.

The poster was unwilling to do the basic research that it would take to develop the minimum skills and advance his project along. . I was roundly criticized and the thread was closed.

We are now facing a similar situation. A novice is asking for complete instructions and information, but he is unwilling to do the basic research himself. I would suggest that he make the gun holster, show us his work, then we can use our vast collection of knowledge and experience to help him clean up his design . Through trial and error, we gain valuable experience; we've all done it before and will do it again.

My perspective is easy to understand. If you are willing to put in the time and effort I will gladly help you.

[K-Man]

Welcome to the real world of holster making.

I looked at the thread on that forum. Your holster design is not something new or unique, and has been previously made by a number of holster makers. So I don't know that you'd have any legal grounds to any protection in that respect.

I'm not saying that you cloned someone else's design intentionally. Oftentimes a person has an epiphany on what they think is a unique design, and later come to find out that they're doing the same thing that someone else has done long before them.

IMO, you're choices are to draw up a tutorial of sorts for the forum or tell them you're not interested.

[MarkB]

I will say this that there is money to be had in patterns if your willing to share them. I sell patterns now and people are just as willing to spend money on patterns as they are the finished product.there are those that need patterns to learn from and those that will not make but buy the finished product. make money two ways.

[particle]

I've been asked to sell my patterns, but my typical response is to direct them here, refer them to the Stohlman holster book, and let them know I'd be happy to help them generate their own patterns. I've debated selling them, but haven't gotten around to it yet. One time, I told the guy I'd sell my pattern for something like $40, and he would not be allowed to sell holsters built from my pattern (since I make and sell holsters from the same patterns) - they would only be for personal use. This guy had already admitted he was planning on making and selling holsters generated from my patterns. His response was that other makers were willing to sell their patterns for half that cost, and didn't care if he sold the holsters he'd made from those patterns.

You know, maybe I should track that guy down and see who he's buying his patterns from... Might save me a lot of work making my own patterns! LOL

[Big O]

I can see where that would be an issue when you're cranking out more than a dozen holsters a week, using godawful expensive machinery (which is the only way that works).

I'm still at the stage where I'm only producing a few holsters a MONTH, and doing it entirely by hand. Well...HANDS....both my own. I draw up a new pattern from scratch for every holster. I guess if someone wanted to buy a pattern from me, I'd have no problem with it. I just don't see why anyone would even WANT one or two pieces of file folder material with holes poked in it, though.......representing a design that was made to fit an entirely different person, with entirely different needs......

[MdB Leatherworks]

Welcome to the real world of holster making.

I looked at the thread on that forum. Your holster design is not something new or unique, and has been previously made by a number of holster makers. So I don't know that you'd have any legal grounds to any protection in that respect.

I'm not saying that you cloned someone else's design intentionally. Oftentimes a person has an epiphany on what they think is a unique design, and later come to find out that they're doing the same thing that someone else has done long before them.

IMO, you're choices are to draw up a tutorial of sorts for the forum or tell them you're not interested.

Which is why, in the end, I decided to go ahead and do a tutorial. I realize that it's entirely possible that I overreacted on a gut level about the whole thing, but it just made my teeth itch for some reason. Hell, I might go ahead and just post the pattern and be done with it.

As for the design itself, I didn't copy anyone. I sat down with a pistol and a clean sheet of paper a couple years ago and made an OWB pancake holster for my G23. I experimented with different degrees of cant, different levels of rise, sweat shields, no sweat shields, made duct tape mock ups (I saved A LOT of leather that way!) and finally settled on something that worked for me. When I recently got the CZ 82, I made the same OWB holster for it too. But after a bit I started to wonder if I could adapt that pattern into an IWB design, and the picture is the result. Does it surprise me that I reinvented the wheel? Nope, not a bit. But I came by that particular design honestly.

You know, as I read what I just typed I realized what set my hackles up about this whole thing- the hours of work and experimentation I put into getting where I am with it translated into an emotional investment. Hmmm.... Thanks for helping me see that, K-man.

I think I'll do a write-up of my design process AND post the pattern. After all, if I sell any of these it'll be my skill that makes the sale- not the design.

[JohnBarton]

I get really irritated when people ask me for exact patterns. Sorry but I spent a lot of time fiddling to get the exact dimensions down. I do things on my cases that other people don't do. I also get copied quite a bit. I did release a pattern on here of my own free will to help any aspiring case makers get an idea of the parts they will need to cut for a basic case. But I am not going to send out the ones I worked very hard to develop.

If I see something that someone else did then I am going to sit my ass down and figured it out myself. There is also a certain JOY in that for me. It's the discovery of figuring out what works and what doesn't and how to change things.

This is one reason I don't charge (yet) for modifications like a longer pocket or a longer case. I wanted to develop the skills and have my team develop the skills to change patterns instantly and be able to do what the customer wants quickly. Also it builds our own library of patterns which are then ready to use when the next customer comes along.

I have seen competitors refuse to do something as simple as change the side of the case that the handle is one with the claim that they would have to make a new pattern. Well I say that's BS and frankly I can't understand it. But maybe someone who isn't really into making true custom work is the sort of person who isn't into making their own patterns and as such isn't really willing to change them once they have them.

I don't know. I just think it's tacky to ask a competitor for certain things. I try to have a fairly friendly relationship with all my competitors in this business and with a few exceptions I do. I have often spent hours on the chat or the phone with other cue case makers giving them advice, and I have sent or sold them supplies. I value that interaction. But I draw the line at sending them my exact patterns. I think that there are some things that a person needs to develop on their own.

[BAD HIDE]

Sharing or selling your designs is entirely up to you. Personally, I'd share my patterns with most people. Nothing I make is all that complex, and I wasted a few good pieces of leather getting things right. I'm not worried about competitors, because my main competition is big box, big headed designer, cheaply made crap, not other leather workers. The pattern isn't special - what it's made of, how it's finished and assembled is what makes it unique.

People asking for patterns are either the experienced craftsman looking to expand or improve his line or the DIY weekend warrior. The first guy probably already has something very similar he could adapt, he's just curious about yours, and is trying to save some time and money. If he really has a need to make and sell multiple copies of the pattern, he'll buy one from you, rip it apart for the pattern, and make 100 anyway. If you give him the pattern or not, he's still going to figure it out and make a decent product. The second guy is looking for a cheap holster, or to fill his hobby quota for the month. Chances are, he'll spend more making that one holster than just buying one from you, his won't look as nice or hold up as well, but he's happy. He'll make a few for his friends, but eventually, they'll all come around and buy a better one - possibly from you.

[DaltonMasterson]

I have traded off several patterns over the years, and am getting ready to send a whole passel of them to another guy overseas. He will not be competing with me, as he has a different market than I do.

I have even given patterns to the guy sitting across from me at a gun show. I let the quality of my work outshine his in the end, even if it is the exact same pattern.

Build quality stuff, and people will still buy it over the guy building your pattern and not doing the quality that you are. If they buy his, they either have no appreciation for quality, or will be back to visit you later on.

But, I see your point too. I dont think I would post a pattern online for the entire world to view.

I like what Particle has done. (If its working for you still, Particle). He built an online tutorial on pattern making, showed it for awhile, and now charges a small fee for viewing the video. Basically, he has bettered my pattern making skills, helped the leatherworking community as a whole by creating better artistry, and is still making a buck doing it. At least I hope he is.

DM

[TexasJack]

I seldom end up in the middle of an argument, but I may be this time. In reading your post, it looks like both of you were "right". The guy asked you - fairly politely - if you'd be willing to donate a pattern. You responded - also politely - that you'd be willing to help, but not with a pattern. Yes, you disagreed, but openly and fairly. After that, things get a little strained, but still far less than I see on far too many threads.

For some reason, there seems to be a lot of people who think they can make anything (and do it for nothing) if they just had that magic "pattern". It's like technique and effort have no part in the process! If you know how to make holsters (or substitute any leather goods you desire to make), then you could probably look at someone's creation and figure out how to do the same thing. If you don't know how to do it, the best pattern in the world won't help.