Where's The Quality In "custom" Gone

[Chief31794]

I have just purchased a cusom made knife from and excellent custom knife maker here in SW Georgia so I want to make a very nice custom sheath to compliment his craftsmanship. My normal way is to observe as much as I can of how professionals and high quality craftsmen do it and then plan my way ahead. I specialize in Purses, Instrument straps, belts, bible covers and a few holsters from time to time so I hit the web looking for "Custom Leather Sheath Makers" so I could see their product. Yahoo returned about 6 or 7, after looking at their websites, I wouldn't accept a free product from most of them, the quality is "TERRIBLE", any carving is either a veiner along the edge or a stamped deer or fish (very muddy looking stamp work).

The prices on this stuff was astonomical, for example $95.00 for a poorly made sheath.

One example that is particularly disturbing is this , although this is a picture of a Custom Made Rifle Sling these are the pictures of work they are using to lure customers in and demonstrates the quality of their work, if this is an example of some of their best work, I'm amazed.

Ken

[K-Man]

If you think that sling is bad, you ought to look at some examples of gun holsters. Admittedly, a person has to start somewhere. My experience has been that those who often talk the most "smack" seem to win over the customers. There's been numerous examples of that here on LW and a variety of gun forums I visit. There's a couple of holster makers that come to mind that everyone raves about the quality and craftsmanship of their product. I wouldn't give you $5 for their stuff. As one of my customers put it, "My 5-year old could do a better job." Some of these holster makers claim they've been making holsters for numerous years. And to top it off, they charge outlandish prices for their "custom" work. One holster maker I know of who makes pocket holsters charges, on average, $175-185 for a pocket holster covered with an exotic skin. I've personally examined the holsters and they fall far short of the quality and level of craftsmanship one would expect when paying that price.

I just shake my head and move on. I've been told that one cannot point out the obvious to the readers because you're accused of badmouthing the competition. Reality steps on toes, and people don't like to be told what that reality is. All you can truly do, to be politically correct in such an instance, is to tell people what they should expect with respect to function/durability/etc. when selecting whatever item. Meaning, you tell them how a quality product is made and what it's made from - from the leather to the processes used. The quality of product by those using the correct material and processes is readily apparent. It will/should become obvious to the observer where the shortcomings are on a given piece, and you leave it up to them to make the choice.

With respect to knife sheaths, go over to the Blade forums. Also google Paul Long and Sandy Morrissey (he's in GA) and you should get some hits on samples of their work.

Edited June 17, 2011 by K-Man

[Ferg]

Ken,

I too am amazed at what some folks regard as professional product in many fields. I have done stained glass and am simply appalled at what is on the market with soldering that is total trash.

Not into sheaths so haven't ventured there. I have no doubt the problem exists everywhere. High dollar with what you can get away with seems to be more prevalent every day, sad.

For the most part everyone on this forum does extremely fine work.

ferg

I have just purchased a cusom made knife from and excellent custom knife maker here in SW Georgia so I want to make a very nice custom sheath to compliment his craftsmanship. My normal way is to observe as much as I can of how professionals and high quality craftsmen do it and then plan my way ahead. I specialize in Purses, Instrument straps, belts, bible covers and a few holsters from time to time so I hit the web looking for "Custom Leather Sheath Makers" so I could see their product. Yahoo returned about 6 or 7, after looking at their websites, I wouldn't accept a free product from most of them, the quality is "TERRIBLE", any carving is either a veiner along the edge or a stamped deer or fish (very muddy looking stamp work).

The prices on this stuff was astonomical, for example $95.00 for a poorly made sheath.

One example that is particularly disturbing is this, although this is a picture of a Custom Made Rifle Sling these are the pictures of work they are using to lure customers in and demonstrates the quality of their work, if this is an example of some of their best work, I'm amazed.

Ken

[rdb]

A conversation on Quality is all fine and good, but posting a link to someone trying to make a living out there, and presenting that person's work as inferior, is at best, bad form, and at worst bordering on libel. I have taken the liberty to excise the link.

[Chief31794]

A conversation on Quality is all fine and good, but posting a link to someone trying to make a living out there, and presenting that person's work as inferior, is at best, bad form, and at worst bordering on libel. I have taken the liberty to excise the link.

[DCKNIVES]

First ,I have to agree with rdb,discuss it but you don't have to pinpoint makers to ridicule.In this internet era, it only takes a short time to create a website to market your products and there are so many taking up leather and knives its crazy.Many have been at it a short time and start selling.As a 20 year veteran of making I have found that the market will weed out the ones not offering top quality, and reward those that strive to do quality work.As far as Paul Long and Sandy Morissey, Paul is a friend and has been doing leather work for about 40 years and almost exclusively sheaths for about 5.Sandy is a very dear friend and was and still is my mentor, he has been doing leatherwork for about 60 years and has produced about 30,000 sheaths in that time.

Back to sheaths,alot of knifemakers don't like doing sheaths but see it as a necessary evil and attempt thier own, usually it shows.Many don't offer sheaths at all and will allow you to contact a sheathmaker and there are quite a few to chose from, some with a years time in others many years.Then are those that love both areas and try to excell at both.But I also think the word custom has become somewhat blurred .In my mind, custom means building something per the customer specs, not doing what you think is cool and selling it.That to me is simply handmade. Much of the stuff I make is straight off customer drawings, something much harder to do than most would think, but it usually results in repeat business.

Pricing custom work is something most have troubles with especially when starting, and this is where most of those with lesser work get weeded out.Personally I don't think $95 for a sheath is high at all given the quality is ok, mine are generally higher sometimes much more depending on the job.Just a few thoughts.Dave

[Rayban]

A conversation on Quality is all fine and good, but posting a link to someone trying to make a living out there, and presenting that person's work as inferior, is at best, bad form, and at worst bordering on libel. I have taken the liberty to excise the link.

good job

[Wishful]

A conversation on Quality is all fine and good, but posting a link to someone trying to make a living out there, and presenting that person's work as inferior, is at best, bad form, and at worst bordering on libel. I have taken the liberty to excise the link.

I have to agree.

[K-Man]

Okay - how do you determine quality and what are the parameters? Do those parameters extend across the board?

[electrathon]

I know a guy that constantly tells students that, "no one will notice but you" and "it is handmade, you can not expect it to be as good as something coming out of a factory". Both make me cringe.

I have to agree that much of the "custom" work I see I would not use at any price, let alone pay for it.

I have a story too. A couple years back I was at a fair and walked into a leather booth. The guy was selling handmade belts. Not very impressive, simply cam tools and veiners ran down the edge. I was looking (I always like to compare what I can do to others) and the guy walked up to me and loudly bragged that I was looking at a handmade leather belt. Stated that I had likely never seen a real handmade belt before in my life. I lifted my shirt up to show the tooled belt I was wearing. He turned and walked away, not saying another word to me. I guess he knew he had inferior work and only wanted to brag to those who were uneducated.

Aaron

[Rayban]

I know a guy that constantly tells students that, "no one will notice but you" and "it is handmade, you can not expect it to be as good as something coming out of a factory". Both make me cringe.

I have to agree that much of the "custom" work I see I would not use at any price, let alone pay for it.

I have a story too. A couple years back I was at a fair and walked into a leather booth. The guy was selling handmade belts. Not very impressive, simply cam tools and veiners ran down the edge. I was looking (I always like to compare what I can do to others) and the guy walked up to me and loudly bragged that I was looking at a handmade leather belt. Stated that I had likely never seen a real handmade belt before in my life. I lifted my shirt up to show the tooled belt I was wearing. He turned and walked away, not saying another word to me. I guess he knew he had inferior work and only wanted to brag to those who were uneducated.

Aaron

We all know those things exist......the point here is.....do you post a link to that guys web site and tell everyone to go see the junk this guy is producing and calling custom?

[K-Man]

A google/web search will bring up umpteen examples of work people call custom. You could spend a fair chunk of time on eBay and Etsy looking at what people call custom. IMO, there is a great shortfall of "quality" in the majority of the leathercrafted items I look at. And I don't mean necessarily here on LW. LW for the most part, IMO, is a place you come to find out how to bring your items up to a higher level of quality. There are without a doubt some truly gifted craftsman here on LW. What gets me though are those who talk a bunch of smack about how good their product is, nigh unto calling themselves a master craftsman, yet you can clearly see the shortcomings. Pointing out shortcomings seems to be a no-no at the highest level.

IMO, quality goes hand in hand with the craftsmanship skill. If you lack the skill, you're going to lack the quality. People try to mask that with enthusiasm about their product, i.e., talking smack. Sometimes the enthusiasm/smack talking appears to be contagious and the viewer/reader sucks it all up.

People say we shouldn't criticize another craftsman's work. How commonplace is it where people critice/negatively comment on Ford or GM or Toyota or whoever about their products? Are they going to start shutting down those conversations/suing whoever because that person said their product was junk for the price you pay for it? How is that different from what we saw here? I'm just saying.

I suspect the politically correct way to have shown the item in question would have been to say something like, "I want to make custom XXX. The examples/pictures I've seen in my google research show a real lack in quality IMO, and what would be a corresponding high price for it. Here's an example: [link]. How can I make something in this style, and what would be a reasonable price for such an item?" That sound about right?

[Rayban]

There's a sub-forum here where we post our work and ask for criticism...

This OP has nothing to do with political correctness......and it looks like rdb handled it accordingly.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Rayban

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

OK, he made a faux pas for posting the link. What do you want LW to do, ban him, or would you prefer a lynching with a braided rawhide rope? Maybe 40 lashings with a flogger made by one of the members. Hmmmm, numerous possibilities here.

I feel that the original discussion is about so called custom handmade work that is not very professional in design, nor execution. Anyone can make something and put it out for sale at any price that they want because they live in this great country called America, well that is as long as the feds don't find a way to regulate,tax, or permit what you do Some will actually sell something. Why do they make sales? They talk a good game, the customer is uneducated, or it is priced so low that the quality doesn't matter for the purpose. I also do some blacksmithing, as well as ceramics, drawing, photography, lapidary, and other hobbies. I am not what I consider to be a master in any of these , but I have been told that I do some great work. I am my own worst critic. I look at my work from the craftsman's eye, not a consumer's view. I see my little mistakes, and what I consider flaws. Others who look at my items see something different. Why is that? I believe that it boils down to the fact that for those who do not possess any hand skills, what we do is somewhat magical. We can take chunks of leather, lumps of clay, rocks,or even old rusty metal, and make beautiful , and usable items from it. Yes I do sense some wonderment as I look at cheesy handicrafts with big price tags that are selling at fairs. But who is to blame for ME not selling better items? ME that's who. I choose not to do my hobbies for profit. I use, or give away what I make. So, it doesn't matter if you think someone else's stuff is low quality if you are unwilling to jump into the market yourself. Just like voting.......if you don't vote, you can't bitch about the way things are going. If you think you can do a better quality product, do it, but don't blame anyone else for trying, and making money.

[K-Man]

Rayban: You're right - there is a forum for asking for critique of one's own work.

That doesn't apply in this instance, does it?

And, yes, rdb took the action he felt appropriate.

I'm still curious how one determines levels of quality and what the parameters are in establishing those levels.

Edited June 18, 2011 by K-Man

[TexasJack]

There have always been folks who try to pawn off crap as quality. Go to a knife show and you'll see tables full of shiny knives that are absolute junk. It's always been that way. Roman writers complained of the same thing.

If you can't find someone who's doing a good job, then you're just not looking hard enough. Guys like Paul Long, Sandy Morrissey, and Chuck Burrows (and Dave Cole!) are out there doing work that would be considered first class in any generation. While the internet allows any idiot to open for business, it also allows the transfer of information from people who do quality work down to people who are striving to learn. Just look at the range of people who turn out on this message board!

[UKRay]

The whole issue of quality, as K-Man points out, is difficult. I sat down a while back and made my own list of characteristics that I felt embodied quality but I guess everyone has their own opinions.

For me it has to be about workmanship, material and presentation combining to create a feeling of satisfaction with the product. Okay, that isn't exactly specific but I believe it is worth using the best leather/fittings, the best tools and machinery and giving the customer the feeling that they have got something really special and good value for their money. If I don't achieve that then I'm not delivering the best quality I can.

Frankly, I'm not too bothered what anyone else produces (unless I see it as better than mine, in which case I obviously need to raise the game to keep up) and tend to concern myself with improving the stuff I make myself. Life is waaay too short to fall out with people I haven't met. I have quite enough trouble with the ones I do know! LOL

Ray

[$$hobby]

custom will mean different things to different people.

also, just because someone makes something (custom) doesnt mean they will have the same skills as you or I.

most of the time poeple want "custom" but arent willing to pay for the work so they keep on asking/looking until they find someone in the ballpark of what they are willing to spend.

[mkleathers]

most of the time poeple want "custom" but arent willing to pay for the work so they keep on asking/looking until they find someone in the ballpark of what they are willing to spend.

That is so true! Unfortunatelly it causes that sometimes It is necessary to put up with "customers" who would question your price and point that "they can get it cheaper". For me, custom is combining clients wishes with my style and meeting somewhere between.

Chief, I understand what you are talking about. When I was beginning my adventure with leathercraft (still am) I browsed through tons of sites with... different content. Dont know where you looked but my advice is to look on foreign forums as well. You might find some inspiration there. PM me if you want some links.

Regards

Mat.

[Rhide]

There's been a sign in my shop for 20 years that reads:

I have no quarrel with those who will do it for less.

They know what their work is worth.

As far as setting a parameter for what defines "custom", that's something you need to do for yourself.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Rhide

[Dwight]

I'm still curious how one determines levels of quality and what the parameters are in establishing those levels.

There has always been the concept of "caveat emptor", . . . let the buyer beware, . . . at any time and any place there was retail sales going on.

In my sales, . . . if I would not buy the product, at the price I offer it, . . . then I won't sell it to someone else. I have sold seconds, . . . but in every case there was a steep discount, . . . and full disclosure as to why I was selling it so cheap.

If a person does that, . . . quality does not suffer, . . . I say that especially in leather work because one can find some kind of flaw in just about any hand made / custom made leather item produced. That is in my opinion, part of the beauty and attraction of leather work. If I wanted everything perfectly the same, . . . I'd just punch press out the Kydex and go on about life.

I try to treat my customers as I would want to be treated I guess is my bottom line. But then again, . . . there are unscroupulous varmints out there who could not care less, . . . fleece the flock is their motto.

May God bless,

Dwight

[celticleather]

There is hardly anything in the world that some men cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

[spur2009]

Not sure I want to get involved with this one, however, I guess I have to get my 2 cents in. I try not to judge the quality of other folks

work but instead judge thequality of my own. I firmly believe that ifwhat you do does not have your name on it then it is not

of a quality to leave your shop. I believe to the craftsman is his own best critic and should never settle for second best. Reckon

I've spouted off enough on this subject.

[TwinOaks]

Over the 4 years or so that I've been working with leather, I've improved A LOT. I've been fortunate in that friends and family were supportive of my efforts. It's true that I've always been my own worst critic, and even when I had people tell me "Oh, it's fantastic!" or some such, I still found faults with things. Now, as I progress in this hobby/career, I find myself examining my product and saying "Nope, can't see where to make it better." At this point my work is exponentially better than when I started, and I'm pretty proud of my progression....and I don't see where to make it better. So, what I'm working on now is learning to look at the leather better, and learn what I'm not seeing. I think that's the mark of a true craftsman- taking the time to turn out the best work possible and still looking for a way to make it better. LW.net to the rescue!!! Thanks to this site, I've been able to gauge myself against true masters of this craft.......I'm figuring another 8-10 years and I'll be where I want to be. Does this disappoint me? Not at all. I'm pretty sure I can turn out the odd piece that is 'master' level, but it's more of a fluke than not. I'm turning out "good" and "better than many" quality, but I won't be satisfied until I'm consistently producing work that makes people wish they were 'that good'.

Regarding the OP, I think this is the major issue with today's "custom" makers; they're after the quick dollar instead of striving to master the craft. The biggest thing about it is the marketing. I can't make a large quantity of any particular thing in a reasonable time frame. With that bit of information, I know that I can't compete with a "leather company'" that produces items in the 100+ quantities, per run. Therefore, when they hire someone to get on a forum and proclaim the wonders of their product, I'm automatically at a disadvantage because I can't meet a sudden demand....even though I have a better product. The result is that the 'good enough to make the sale' leather work sees a broader market and gets more reviews- which may or may not be accurate and true- and thus more business. If everybody can get one in a reasonable time, then it must be a good product, right? As we all know, this isn't always the case, but "perception is reality", so we see more 'custom' shops open up overnight, looking to cash in on the market. One excellent example is the Crossbreed holster that combines leather and kydex. There's umpteen thousand people offering a knock off of that design now.......and a few craftsmen (and women) who decline to accept the quick dollar by copying someone else's design.

[Rhide]

Great post TO. That pretty well sums it up for me.