Branded Chinese Machines

[amuckart]

Something I've read in a few posts in the archives of this forum is that the big advantage of the machines sold by the likes of Artisan, Cobra and CowBoy compared to other Chinese import machines is that a lot checking and tuning gets done on them before they get sent to the end customer.

Is that still the case? I ask because I've got a friend with a machine received direct from the factory that builds machines sold by one of the popular retailers on here. I don't know who they purchased it through and I won't mention the brand, but my friend was quite unhappy with it as-received and said it needed an almost total rebuild before it performed well.

I have no doubt that the quality of the tuned and tested machines from the US vendors is great, but given the additional costs of getting a machine from the USA to NZ compared to getting it shipped direct from China, and the distance from the vendors if I do need service/parts, I'm curious as to whether things have changed in the last couple or three years with the factory quality of the machines or whether I'd be better off going for something like a Highlead which is a lot more expensive but seems to have a good direct-from-factory reputation.

Having hit the cost/benefit wall trying to get my 45k rebuilt, I'm saving my pennies for a big cylinder-arm machine, but I'm also interested in how this applies to lighter-duty machines as well. Given a decent service manual I'm able to work on machines just fine, but when it comes to things like this I want to start out with something that will Just Work.

Cheers.

[KAYAK45]

I can see the pickle your in Mate. From China to California and Back to NZ, just to have a lad look it over, thread and needle and test sew. I'm seasick already.

I'll bet, and I don't speak for anybody, I'll bet one of our member dealers could talk you through the set up.

Wow!. I won't bet... YOU CAN! LOL

As for the service they provide? Yes it is worth it.

Oh, and you want a "decent service manual"..NO WAY. If'n I had to rely on the chinese manual I got, I wouldn't be able to thread the darn thing. The other 20/so pictures and instructions and hints saved my tooche.

But still these things can be overcome in this age of communications, e-mAILS AND SUCH.

Buy the machine through one of our members,. Talk to THEM about direct shipping and setup.

All but one of them is a good guy. Wanta know which one. I AINT TALKING. lollol

kEVIN

[amuckart]

Setup isn't a problem, I can take care of that easily. I'm talking about whether the machines need actual remedial engineering work these days before they're sent to end customers, or whether they're good straight from the factory.

If the value proposition of buying a machine from one of the member vendors here is a re-engineered machine then it's something I'll think about, but If I order through them and get something drop-shipped direct from the factory in China, then it's a far less compelling proposition.

I'm asking the questions here, in a public forum, so that the information goes into the archives and other people outside of the USA can get the information too.

[Wizcrafts]

Amuckart;

I know that the dealers of both Cobra and Cowboy branded machines spend a considerable amount of time adjusting the machines they get from China. Some are in better working condition than others, when unboxed, but none should be drop-shipped to end users direct from the boat.. Steve Tayrien and Bob Kovar both put in all the time it takes to make sure that the machines they ship don't come right back as unworkable, or undesirable.

I recommend that you contact these dealers and express your concerns to them. See what kind of deal you can get. Maybe they will go over them with a fine toothbrush for you. Once properly inspected and adjusted these machines should last a long, long time.

[TwinOaks]

The machine heads are industrial/commercial heads, designed for factory work. As such, they're probably set up at the factory to run at 2000spm or faster. The suppliers of the machines do alter things a bit to handle slower speeds and increase the torque. Since I'm not a stitcher mechanic, I won't try to get into specifics. The short answer is YES, there's a good bit that they do to them, and for the second part - is the service worth it? Well, how much value do you put in the ability to call one of them on their personal cell and have them diagnose and help you fix your machine at 9 p.m. on a weekend?

[amuckart]

TwinOaks, 9pm on a Saturday here is 5am in Toledo and Toronto. This is the issue, by dint of the timezones alone I'm not going to be able to leverage the services of the vendors in the USA and Canada the same way people more locally can, and shipping something back to them to get worked on is right out, so the whole set of considerations is different than for someone in the USA or Canada.

[BrianBoyles]

I would say after reading your last post to contact the dealers directly and ask what they actually do to the machine before it ships to you.

Edited July 5, 2011 by BrianBoyles

[amuckart]

Just to stave off the inevitable torrent of responses from people telling me to buy an Artisan or Cobra or Cowboy: I get it, I've read this forum extensively, and I've seen all the arguments for buying from the dealers time and time again and I think they're perfectly valid but there's one important point to consider:

I'm not "here in the US"

I'm in New Zealand, 8,000 miles and 17 time zones away from the US.

I'm not asking who I should buy from, I'm asking whether the situation frequently mentioned in the archives where vendors are overhauling machines before shipping them out is still happening, or whether they've worked with the QA folk at the factories to get them up to spec at that end of the process so that when I get a quote and it's for a machine drop-shipped direct from the factory in China, with different branding on it, am I in fact getting the same thing as someone in America buying from the vendor after they've overhauled and checked out the machine?

The service that is so big a part of these dealer's value proposition is not accessible to people in my time zone the way it is to people maybe one or two hour's difference from the vendor, nor are parts so easily available. On top of that, shipping something of that size/weight and value is horrifically expensive, not to mention the customs charges and taxes that land on it (and the shipping costs) before customs will release it, so the pricing changes drastically.

I'm still interested in the answer to my original question about the ex-factory quality of the machines various people are re-branding and selling, because that's something I need to be able to take into account.

[Steven Kelley]

I thought I read somewhere here that there was a Cowboy dealer in Australia. If so, you might want to contact them. Not that I'm trying to push Cowboy over the other brands, but if there is a dealer in Australia that could be a solution for you.

[TwinOaks]

I'm not "here in the US", I'm in New Zealand, 8,000 miles and 17 time zones away from the US.

I'm not asking who I should buy from, I'm asking whether the situation frequently mentioned in the archives where vendors are overhauling machines before shipping them out is still happening, or whether they've worked with the QA folk at the factories to get them up to spec at that end of the process so that when I get a quote and it's for a machine drop-shipped direct from the factory in China, with different branding on it, am I in fact getting the same thing as someone in America buying from the vendor after they've overhauled and checked out the machine?

I understand that you are a loooong way from the U.S., the comment was to convey that the dealers will go out of their way to provide the service that has earned them their reputations. I spoke with one of them (I think it was Neal from Neal's Saddlery) on the eve of a holiday several years ago. He apologized profusely that his signal was fading out and that we'd have to continue the call at a later time, but the chartered fishing boat he'd boarded while talking to me was getting too far away from shore to get a good signal. The guy was answering my questions while on his vacation. I've also had another dealer call me pretty early in my day, which is in the central time zone here in the U.S. That dealer (Cobra Steve) is on the west coast, 3 time zones away, and had made the time to get up very early to make the call. I've also spoken to him while he was driving a truck to a trade show. These guys have earned their reputations.

As to what the dealers are doing: Yes, they take a factory head and modify the drive mechanisms, primarily through a motor change and pulley ratio reducers. They also sew with the machine and tune it to the size thread and thickness of leather you specify. Though you will probably change it a few (thousand) times, the machine will be pretty close to "ready to sew" when you get it...as in "mount the head and motor, thread the needle, plug it in and you're ready". There's always some fine tuning of tensions required by the user, but these dealers do all they can to make it a simple process.

And yes, there has been a thread about a dealer in Oz for the Cowboy line. I'll do some digging and see if I can find it. If anyone else knows where it is, please don't hesitate to go ahead and post it.

Also, I believe UKRay bought a Highlead machine from a dealer in the UK, facing similar shipping/customs issues that you are. He was able to acquire the materials to alter his machine from the dealers, and do the work himself. That depends, of course, on your ability to work on the machine, time to do so, etc. You might check with him and see what it took, whom he dealt with, and what procedures he followed.