Branded Chinese Machines

[tonyc1]

I bought an Adler 205-370 from Richland Industrial Machines in Montana about 10 - 15 years ago. It was air freighted out here to Tasmania and I received it within a week. It has sewn an awful lot of thread and in that time I've only had to replace a bobbin case. It was all set up to go when it arrived and hasn't stopped and is used nearly every day. I did a costing on what it would cost to freight out here but didn't take into account that it would be on two pallets and all boxed up with 5/8" mdf. It was packed very, very well but the extra weight cost about $300 more than I had anticipated but even so, it was well worth it in the long run. I have no regrets.

Tony.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Yes it is worth the extra freight. Sending by sea is relatively inexpensive but the cost is paying the dock fees, customs agent eyc when it lands. I do not sell the sort of machine you want but you may have seen in a recent thread the work that goes into a bog standard walking foot machine for canvas.

What is wrong with the 45K? If parts prices are a killer then email me.

Something I've read in a few posts in the archives of this forum is that the big advantage of the machines sold by the likes of Artisan, Cobra and CowBoy compared to other Chinese import machines is that a lot checking and tuning gets done on them before they get sent to the end customer.

Is that still the case? I ask because I've got a friend with a machine received direct from the factory that builds machines sold by one of the popular retailers on here. I don't know who they purchased it through and I won't mention the brand, but my friend was quite unhappy with it as-received and said it needed an almost total rebuild before it performed well.

I have no doubt that the quality of the tuned and tested machines from the US vendors is great, but given the additional costs of getting a machine from the USA to NZ compared to getting it shipped direct from China, and the distance from the vendors if I do need service/parts, I'm curious as to whether things have changed in the last couple or three years with the factory quality of the machines or whether I'd be better off going for something like a Highlead which is a lot more expensive but seems to have a good direct-from-factory reputation.

Having hit the cost/benefit wall trying to get my 45k rebuilt, I'm saving my pennies for a big cylinder-arm machine, but I'm also interested in how this applies to lighter-duty machines as well. Given a decent service manual I'm able to work on machines just fine, but when it comes to things like this I want to start out with something that will Just Work.

Cheers.

[Cobra Steve]

Hello, I can only speak for myself regarding this issue. We spend at least 6 hours on each machine. We modify, set the different timings and sew each machine off with different leathers, thread and needles. After it passes these tests, we ship. If there is a problem with one of our machines, regardless of whose fault,(if any), we take care of it. It will not cost the customer anything except the time without it. This applies to anywhere in the world. We have a great reputation for service and we will NEVER jeopardize this. I personally stand behind our product, and always will. Thanks, Steve

Edited July 5, 2011 by Cobra Steve

[amuckart]

I understand that you are a loooong way from the U.S., the comment was to convey that the dealers will go out of their way to provide the service that has earned them their reputations.

From everything I've read on here, I have no doubt they will, but what I have discovered is the case with at least one of the popular vendors on here is that when you buy a machine from their guy in the USA you get a known-good well adjusted machine that's had a lot of work put into it to make it work the way their customers need it to, and you get legendary after-sales support. If you buy the same brand machine when you're in another country though, what you get is a machine shipped direct from their factory in China, with none of that value-add, none of the expectations of reliability that US buyers can rightly expect, and in the experience of at least one saddler I know, none of the aftermarket support when it doesn't work out of the box.

That discovery is the reason I started this thread, to find out if the ex-factory quality is up to a standard to make buying a machine shipped straight from China a safe bet for brands other than Highlead which has a good out-of-the-box reputation than other Chinese brands, but is several hundred US$/head more expensive.

And yes, there has been a thread about a dealer in Oz for the Cowboy line. I'll do some digging and see if I can find it. If anyone else knows where it is, please don't hesitate to go ahead and post it.

Also, I believe UKRay bought a Highlead machine from a dealer in the UK, facing similar shipping/customs issues that you are. He was able to acquire the materials to alter his machine from the dealers, and do the work himself. That depends, of course, on your ability to work on the machine, time to do so, etc. You might check with him and see what it took, whom he dealt with, and what procedures he followed.

I'll do that, thanks. I'm reasonably handy, I've completely stripped and reassembled machines before. I've got no problem with buying accessory sets from a US dealer and bolting them to a different brand machine if they'll fit (and this is an option I've explored). So long as it's fairly simple easy stuff that isn't going to add hundreds of dollars to the price of the machine. This one has got to Just Work, unlike my Pearson #6, which sits in the corner and gets worked on intermittently as and when I have time and enthusiasm (it'll be great when it's done though! Whenever that is )

Hello, I can only speak for myself regarding this issue. We spend at least 6 hours on each machine. We modify, set the different timings and sew each machine off with different leathers, thread and needles. After it passes these tests, we ship. If there is a problem with one of our machines, regardless of whose fault,(if any), we take care of it. It will not cost the customer anything except the time without it. This applies to anywhere in the world. We have a great reputation for service and we will NEVER jeopardize this. I personally stand behind our product, and always will. Thanks, Steve

Thanks Steve, I appreciate your reply here - and to my email inquiries also.

[jimsaddler]

Hi Al

I'll back-up what the others say about how the Machines are checked out and gone over when they arrive from China. As you know I'm in Australia and been a Saddler & Harness Maker for a long time. Over those years I've brought a great number of Heavy Industrial Sewing Machines for my Workshops and those I've helped establish. Might I say the virtually every Machine had to be tuned up. Oh yes Singer were the worst. Always a few days were involved in tune ups and getting broken parts replaced. Adler was better a few hours was normal but sometimes a lot more. Seiko 4 or 5 hours per Machine and the occasional Part needed. a Pro 2000 (Air freighted from US) took more than 4 days to get the problems sorted out and sewing for my Friend. The Cowboy 441 usually sews out of the box. If the others are similar they should be the same. But I still go over them in case of problem. What I am saying is that the Chinese Reputable Clones are a step above the Old names as far as out of the Box is concerned. That said though some Dealers just sell Machines on high profitability alone. I worked on one to-day. Odd size Studs and Screws Different to the original Juki 441. Looks like any other except for the Rough Paint work But doesn't tune up like the Good Clones. Took over 6 hours and different Tools to do a simple tune-up. Its a far cry from the quality of the Good Clones Artisan, Cobra, Cowboy and Ferdco. These have been developed properly for the Leather Worker, Saddler and Harness Maker. How do I know? I am one of the number of Tradesman advisers who put the sujestions in as to how to improve them. This advice has been based on Hands on experience of what the Trade wants. That is " a Machine that will perform every day with no major problems and will perform every job efficiently".

Note how the Fly Wheels are now Bigger (more torque and better Hand control)? My request to improve on the Little ones that were used and nipping Fingers.

Stainless Feet and Needle Plates, these don't leave Black stains on Damp Leather (Ferric Stains) like the Steel ones.

Vari Speed Servo Motors mounted at the front for ease of use of the Speed adjustment. The list is endless. I am proud of my association with my Chinese Engineer Friends who asked so many questions to me (several times per week) over the past years. Because they took notice of every little point.

Singer, Adler and the like didn't when asked ( Not possible the Accounts Manager always said). All they did was push up prices till they were unaffordable (last price I got from Adler for a 205 15 years ago was over $14.000 plus extra's) . So I switched to Seiko, Nice Machines, but if I wanted Changes I needed to order Big numbers. Along comes Bill! Please you tell me what Saddler & Harness Maker wants, I Make it. He did this for small numbers and we improved sales based on the improvements. Now we have access to far better quality Machines at far better prices. A lot of this has been achieved via Leatherworker.net. and the discussions here. Here in Australia we have young People getting a good start with an affordable Machine that will do all of their work. Previously they had to buy worn out second hand Machines at highly inflated prices and struggle to learn to repair them (if at all) so they gave up in disgust.

Sorry to go on like this Al.

I'm not a Dealer in Australia. I'm a Saddler & Harness Maker who proudly Distributes Cowboy Industrial Sewing Machines and is always there for the Phone or Email to sort out the requests for advice as you know.

By the way I got an old Pearson A1 with original Transfers in-tact (my old Bosses). Also a USMC Pilot and a Singer 97-10. These will keep me out of mischief for a while. Age is hurting so I only make Harness now in my spare time. Oh and join people up with New Machines that they need.

This is not a Sales pitch. It my opinion based on observance of some considerable length of time. Please Guys no more cutting throats and prices as you all have to make a living. The Leather Industry will suffer if we have to return to the days of Limited Knowledge Dealers and highly inflated Prices of pre the Good guys here on LW helping with good sound advice.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler. Childers.

Australia.

Just to stave off the inevitable torrent of responses from people telling me to buy an Artisan or Cobra or Cowboy: I get it, I've read this forum extensively, and I've seen all the arguments for buying from the dealers time and time again and I think they're perfectly valid but there's one important point to consider:

I'm not "here in the US"

I'm in New Zealand, 8,000 miles and 17 time zones away from the US.

I'm not asking who I should buy from, I'm asking whether the situation frequently mentioned in the archives where vendors are overhauling machines before shipping them out is still happening, or whether they've worked with the QA folk at the factories to get them up to spec at that end of the process so that when I get a quote and it's for a machine drop-shipped direct from the factory in China, with different branding on it, am I in fact getting the same thing as someone in America buying from the vendor after they've overhauled and checked out the machine?

The service that is so big a part of these dealer's value proposition is not accessible to people in my time zone the way it is to people maybe one or two hour's difference from the vendor, nor are parts so easily available. On top of that, shipping something of that size/weight and value is horrifically expensive, not to mention the customs charges and taxes that land on it (and the shipping costs) before customs will release it, so the pricing changes drastically.

I'm still interested in the answer to my original question about the ex-factory quality of the machines various people are re-branding and selling, because that's something I need to be able to take into account.

[Trox]

Steve is worth those extra dollars and miles.

Trox

Hello, I can only speak for myself regarding this issue. We spend at least 6 hours on each machine. We modify, set the different timings and sew each machine off with different leathers, thread and needles. After it passes these tests, we ship. If there is a problem with one of our machines, regardless of whose fault,(if any), we take care of it. It will not cost the customer anything except the time without it. This applies to anywhere in the world. We have a great reputation for service and we will NEVER jeopardize this. I personally stand behind our product, and always will. Thanks, Steve

[Singermania]

HI, I'm another Aussie with a few words to add about the old machines and the new Chinese models. I'm a collector that does a bit of buying and selling and my interest lies in the biggest machines I can find, mostly thats Singer, Adler and BUSMC. I love the old machines, not because they are any better but simply because that's how my mind works. I have a Singer 3-1 harness machine, 5-12 belt stitching machine, a number of Singer 132k6, various 7 class , 27,31,33 and an 11 book binding machine, Singer 11-20 long cylinder walking foot, 47KSV10 very large long arm walking foot zig zag sailmakers machine. There is an old Adler 20-20... looks a bit like a Singer 7 or 8 class and a couple of BUSMC machines (don't tell JIm Beaton) on the way. Can these machines be a bit fussy, yes, are they solid and built of the best metal.. yes. I looked into importing Chinese machines some time back and discovered from the factory salespeople that I could buy the same machine in a number of qualities... for example there is one quality (not so good) that they sell to their home markets, then there is a step up that they sell to Europe, the US and Australasia (under various names) and then there is the top quality (OEM) that they produce to be branded for the likes of Consew, Juki and so on and must meet their requirements. So its not fair to say all Chinese machines have rough castings, poor paint, bearings and tolerances, it just depends on what version you buy, they really can be the best of beasts, as Jim will concur. I love my old machines, I love to go out into my garage and look at them, assuming I can actually get into the garage! and love to search for parts and information, but I would also like to steal the reverse functions off the new machines and some of the other improvements that Jim has been instrumental in making.

There's room for all of us and all machines, if its beautifully made, is great quality then it will become a classic like the Pilot, the Pearson #6, the Singer 7 class etc.

Best Regards Steve Bonnett

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Hey Steve, I've seen some of your wonders on the net and must say I drool over most of them. A local boot factory has a BUSM outsole stitcher sitting in their junk pile right now and I am trying to justify approaching them about it - I will certainly try for the Fortuna skiver - as I know I will probably never find a customer for it. Another wonder I saw in my travels was a Japanese built 30" cylinder bed machine loosely based on a Singer 7. So much heavy iron, so little space.

HI, I'm another Aussie with a few words to add about the old machines and the new Chinese models. I'm a collector that does a bit of buying and selling and my interest lies in the biggest machines I can find, mostly thats Singer, Adler and BUSMC. I love the old machines, not because they are any better but simply because that's how my mind works. I have a Singer 3-1 harness machine, 5-12 belt stitching machine, a number of Singer 132k6, various 7 class , 27,31,33 and an 11 book binding machine, Singer 11-20 long cylinder walking foot, 47KSV10 very large long arm walking foot zig zag sailmakers machine. There is an old Adler 20-20... looks a bit like a Singer 7 or 8 class and a couple of BUSMC machines (don't tell JIm Beaton) on the way. Can these machines be a bit fussy, yes, are they solid and built of the best metal.. yes. I looked into importing Chinese machines some time back and discovered from the factory salespeople that I could buy the same machine in a number of qualities... for example there is one quality (not so good) that they sell to their home markets, then there is a step up that they sell to Europe, the US and Australasia (under various names) and then there is the top quality (OEM) that they produce to be branded for the likes of Consew, Juki and so on and must meet their requirements. So its not fair to say all Chinese machines have rough castings, poor paint, bearings and tolerances, it just depends on what version you buy, they really can be the best of beasts, as Jim will concur. I love my old machines, I love to go out into my garage and look at them, assuming I can actually get into the garage! and love to search for parts and information, but I would also like to steal the reverse functions off the new machines and some of the other improvements that Jim has been instrumental in making.

There's room for all of us and all machines, if its beautifully made, is great quality then it will become a classic like the Pilot, the Pearson #6, the Singer 7 class etc.

Best Regards Steve Bonnett

[Art]

Hi Darren,

As I was approaching the big 60, I had everything from 7s to 97s. I love old iron, but moving it is a terror anymore. Kind of solved that problem by unloading most of it. Now I have turned my attention to 221s, 222s, 301As and the like, much more fun and the wife likes them too. I still have a lot of Chinese iron that I use regularly, and just keep my hand in it a couple of Landis 12s, and an old Repco Model A chain stitcher that is by far either the heaviest or more likely the most awkward thing ever developed (well other than the clicker, but that lives on a steel pallet and a pallet jack works wonders). I guess what I (now at 62) am getting at is, the older you get, the heavier they get.

Art

Hey Steve, I've seen some of your wonders on the net and must say I drool over most of them. A local boot factory has a BUSM outsole stitcher sitting in their junk pile right now and I am trying to justify approaching them about it - I will certainly try for the Fortuna skiver - as I know I will probably never find a customer for it. Another wonder I saw in my travels was a Japanese built 30" cylinder bed machine loosely based on a Singer 7. So much heavy iron, so little space.

[stanly]

Guessing you looked at this dealer and they failed to meet your requirments in some way?

I know that is 16hr trip, still it's closer than Calif.

Sugar Sewing Machine Ltd

• 03-341 2157
• 279 Riccarton Rd Christchurch 8041

Edited July 19, 2011 by stanly