Fiebing's Usmc Black Vs. Fiebing's Pro Oil Black

[wizard of tragacanth]

I am very new to this craft and so far I am only making black holsters. I used USMC Black on a couple of projects and while very satisfied with the outcome, I cannot tolerate all of the buffing necessary for this dye. I have some problems with repetitive motion stress on my arm and hand, so this doesn't help.

I tried Pro Oil on a couple of scraps before using it on a finished project. After top-coating with Satin Shene (as I did with the USMC Black) the result does not seem as good as the USMC... to my eye, anyway. The color did not seem as deep, nor as even, though I used the same techniques for both. Also, the Pro Oil seemed to "raise the grain" or "open the grain". It had a rougher texture, while the USMC dyed piece was as smooth as glass.

I used scraps from several different hides. One of the Pro Oil pieces came out perfect but the others did not. Now, I must say that the average person probably would never notice a difference. It takes fairly close inspection, with samples side by side but once you know the difference, you could pick it out every time.

I tried deglazing one piece, dying one piece which had been wetted with water, and one piece that was completely dry, etc. The Pro Oil dye instructions say to use it while still damp after cleaning with Fiebing's #12 Deglazer.

I want the most color-fast dye and the Pro Oil seems to be it. I rinsed the wool dauber from both dyes. The USMC dauber came out gray, while the Pro Oil remained Jet Black. You don't want to have any accidents with Pro Oil Black! The Pro Oil Black requires almost zero buffing, so that's a big plus. Do I just need to get a better technique to get a deeper black and smooth grain from the Pro Oil?

What have your results been? Which one did you settle on and why?

Thanks,

Nick

[Spinner]

I am very new to this craft and so far I am only making black holsters. I used USMC Black on a couple of projects and while very satisfied with the outcome, I cannot tolerate all of the buffing necessary for this dye. I have some problems with repetitive motion stress on my arm and hand, so this doesn't help.

I tried Pro Oil on a couple of scraps before using it on a finished project. After top-coating with Satin Shene (as I did with the USMC Black) the result does not seem as good as the USMC... to my eye, anyway. The color did not seem as deep, nor as even, though I used the same techniques for both. Also, the Pro Oil seemed to "raise the grain" or "open the grain". It had a rougher texture, while the USMC dyed piece was as smooth as glass.

I used scraps from several different hides. One of the Pro Oil pieces came out perfect but the others did not. Now, I must say that the average person probably would never notice a difference. It takes fairly close inspection, with samples side by side but once you know the difference, you could pick it out every time.

I tried deglazing one piece, dying one piece which had been wetted with water, and one piece that was completely dry, etc. The Pro Oil dye instructions say to use it while still damp after cleaning with Fiebing's #12 Deglazer.

I want the most color-fast dye and the Pro Oil seems to be it. I rinsed the wool dauber from both dyes. The USMC dauber came out gray, while the Pro Oil remained Jet Black. You don't want to have any accidents with Pro Oil Black! The Pro Oil Black requires almost zero buffing, so that's a big plus. Do I just need to get a better technique to get a deeper black and smooth grain from the Pro Oil?

What have your results been? Which one did you settle on and why?

Thanks,

Nick

Hey Nick,

I use both and have found that it depends on the application. First of all, get rid of the daubers for dying anything larger than an edge. They don't maintain enough dye to apply it evenly for more than 2-3 strokes. Use some wool scrap and trim it down to 1/4" or so. The wool can be saturated with dye and will hold quite a bit of it. This also allows you to use more natural 'buffing' motions vs. painting motions which will help the arm & joints. USMC will be a darker black, as it has a heavier pigment so it tends to harden as it dries which is what gives it it's great shine but also makes later coats not penetrate as deep. With the Pro Oil, it has two additional ingredients, which while I don't know what hey do exactly seem to help keep it from drying as quickly so it can penetrate farther. This also why it appears lighter but is more colorfast, the color is further down in the leather. FYI - the two dyes don't play well with each other on the same piece...don't ask me how I know.

For the majority of my work (motorcycle accessories & gear) the colorfastness is priority. My pieces spend a good amount of time in the sun and elements so the color needs to stay in the piece long term. If a client asks for "blacker than midnight on the far side of the moon" black, I'll break out the USMC. This generally is the case when I'm making a piece that butts up against a black vinyl piece already on the bike like a factory seat. The other thing I like about the Pro Oil is it doesn't dry out the leather like USMC does. The leather stills feels supple and pliable after multiple coats and dryings whereas the USMC dyed pieces tend to feel drier and stiffer and usually require more neatsfoot to get back to a natural feel. Just my 2 cents...

Chris

[Shooter McGavin]

I think the oil black will be blacker if you dye with oil blue first.

I started with eco-flo water based black, then moved to USMC black, then to oil black, which is all I use now. I still keep some USMC black around for a quick edge dye or something but otherwise it stays in the bottle.

When using the USMC black it seems like you could buff it forever and still be getting black on your rag. the oil black barely bleeds off at all on me.

[wizard of tragacanth]

Thanks Chris and Shooter McGavin. I guess the bottom line is that I need to keep both USMC and Pro Oil on hand... for different needs.

One other thing that I noticed about these dyes but did not mention earlier. The USMC appears to have brown under-tones and the Pro Oil appears to have blue under-tones. I have heard of using blue, brown and IIRC, green as a base, to make a darker black. I am thinking that since the Pro Oil already seems to have a lot of blue in it, that using green or even red may achieve the look that I am after.

I think it's worth the few dollars for the experiment to find out.

Nick

[katsass]

Thanks Chris and Shooter McGavin. I guess the bottom line is that I need to keep both USMC and Pro Oil on hand... for different needs.

One other thing that I noticed about these dyes but did not mention earlier. The USMC appears to have brown under-tones and the Pro Oil appears to have blue under-tones. I have heard of using blue, brown and IIRC, green as a base, to make a darker black. I am thinking that since the Pro Oil already seems to have a lot of blue in it, that using green or even red may achieve the look that I am after.

I think it's worth the few dollars for the experiment to find out.

Nick

Well Nick, I can't tell you for sure wheather or not USMC Black has a brown under-tone. I can surmise that if so, they may be attempting to achieve the unique black color of the dress shoes of the Marine Corps from 'back when'. As I recall, a Marine recruit was (in my time) issued BROWN dress shoes, and, with black Lincoln shoe polish, was told to "make that footgear black". The result was a very distinctive tone of black, highly polished dress shoes. Obviously, (unfortunately?) the Marine Corps no longer issues brown shoes. Mike

Edited August 28, 2011 by katsass

[wizard of tragacanth]

Wow, Mike, that's really interesting from a color perspective. Sounds like that was the beginning of the hazing process for the new recruits... "Make these brown shoes, black". I'm 59, so I wasn't in the Brown Shoe Army, but I can just imagine.

Nick

[wizard of tragacanth]

Well, Pro Oil let me down on a project that I just finished.

I did a holster using two different hides. The hide that I used for the back piece took the dye well but the front piece came out gray. I sure wished that I had tested it first, before using it on the project, but I didn't. So, I had some scraps from the hide that didn't take the dye well. I found that if I used Neatsfoot Oil on top of the Pro Oil, it darkened up a little bit but not quite enough. When I put Satin Shene over the Pro Oil, it looked pretty good but I didn't want to take any chance that it wouldn't come out right. I tried another experiment. I put on an application of Pro Oil, let it dry, followed with USMC and it came out Jet Black, just like I wanted. After buffing it with sheep's wool, it looked fantastic. I finished it with Satin Shene but that did not change the look from what it was after buffing.

USMC saved the project and am I ever happy about that. I had put a lot of time into that holster and didn't want to mess it up. Whew! That was a close one.

Nick

[Anonnymouse]

I don't use stuff that says "Not For Sale In California."

[katsass]

I don't use stuff that says "Not For Sale In California."

From the grumpy one............DITO! Even if I live there.

Nick .... Not 'hazing' .... Just taught one to 'adapt'. Mike

Edited September 3, 2011 by katsass

[Dwight]

FWIW, . . . I had many of the same issues listed here when I first started doing holsters.

I read a post from a deceased professional who said they only used oil dye, . . . and dip dyed everything, . . . no exceptions.

I tried it and have never looked back.

Fact is, . . . if someone came up in my driveway and wanted it, . . . I'd hand him/her a half full container of USMC black.

For me, . . . dip dying is the only way to go.

May God bless,

Dwight

[wizard of tragacanth]

Hey Dwight,

I'm sure you're right about dip-dying being the preferred method.

I'm just starting out and this was only my fourth project (second holster). You know how it goes for the newb... it's an evolutionary process. First you go to Tandy and get what they recommend. Then you get on a forum and find out about better options. Then you experiment and find out what you like.

Today or tomorrow, I am starting three belts. I plan on dipping them in vinegaroon (my batch should be good to go now). In my current learning stage, I am thinking that I will use vinegaroon for all of my black projects, Neatsfoot oil for natural colors, and oil dye if I need something in between. I had already bought the Pro Oil before I learned about vinegaroon, so I thought it would be good to try it. Besides, the best way to learn is through experience.

Anyway, I'm not sure that dipping in oil dye would have solved my problem on this hide. I had applied the oil dye fairly heavily already and it just didn't work. It seems that dipping would not have helped, but I don't know..

Nick

[Shooter McGavin]

I don't use stuff that says "Not For Sale In California."

I find that, generally speaking, the stuff not far sale in Cali is usually the best. I love living in a free state.

[Spinner]

I don't use stuff that says "Not For Sale In California."

The funny part about this is, it's only "not for sale in California" to the general public. Anyone with a business license (which is free) can still purchase those dyes, glues, etc. and a number of stores carry them right next to the other stuff.

Most of the time, the reason it's not available to the general public is not due to the use of the product, it's a matter of proper disposal of the waste; rags, bottles, excess liquid, and a quick call or stop by the local fire department and they'll be happy to tell you if anything special needs to be done.

[katsass]

The funny part about this is, it's only "not for sale in California" to the general public. Anyone with a business license (which is free) can still purchase those dyes, glues, etc. and a number of stores carry them right next to the other stuff.

Most of the time, the reason it's not available to the general public is not due to the use of the product, it's a matter of proper disposal of the waste; rags, bottles, excess liquid, and a quick call or stop by the local fire department and they'll be happy to tell you if anything special needs to be done.

Well Spinner, that may be true in some cases, however, in many more (IMO) it is that the management has decided to "go green" , even if the items are substandard for the

uses that they are intended for. Again, JMHO .... and experience. Mike