Outrageous!

[Lobo]

Reported in the Sept. 2011 issue of VFW magazine.

The US National Cemetery at Houston, TX, has banned prayers at veterans' funerals, unless requested in advance in writing and the prayer is submitted for prior approval. This policy was enacted by cemetary director Arleen Ocasio.

Issues related to First Amendment rights and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act have brought a lawsuit from the Liberty Institute on behalf of the VFW and American Legion.

As a veteran I am shocked. As an American I am outraged. I will be making myself heard at:

Houston National Cemetery

10410 Veterans Memorial Drive

Houston, TX 77028

281-447-8686

and at my congressman's office, my senators' offices, and at the Secretary of Veterans Affairs office.

This policy cannot be permitted to stand even a moment longer.

[wildrose]

That is ridiculous. If the family of the dead wants to say a prayer, what is wrong with that? Next they'll be telling us we can't pray in church! (God forbid)

[WyomingSlick]

I am having a hard time seeing how they are going to ban any prayer at a funeral. What the hell are they going to do? Shoot you? Maybe it will be live ammo in the rifle squads guns. LOL

Seriously I am sure that "what we have here... is a failure to communicate" Anybody know the movie that quote is from?

I am sure that whatever that lady thought she was doing, it will be straightened out before long, since she has obviously overstepped some boundries here, both constitutional and career wise. Her next job may well be in Nome, Alaska .

[rdb]

The actual problem came about because, there is a movement afoot to force a Christian prayer even into a veterans' funeral who was an atheist. The Family objected, and still the Christians wanted their prayer included. Thus the requirement for approval ahead of time. There was no attempt to prevent prayer in a religious family's service, only the forcing of religious apects into a non-religious event.

[HellfireJack]

They're not banning prayer at funerals. They're stopping a problem with people interjecting their beliefs into the funeral services of someone else who may not follow the same belief system.

The only way to effectively do that is to get all prayers and speeches that include religious beliefs approved prior to the service.

If there was a Christian soldier who fell in Iraq and a Muslim person demanding the right to come to his funeral and pray to and praise Allah and preach about Mohammed during the service I guarantee there would be a problem with it in most cases.

But you can't just demand one sect or religion not be allowed to speak about their beliefs at a funeral. You have to treat everyone the same so this stops that from happening in the most effective manner for all people.

It's not banning prayer. It's ensuring that all people respect the deceased and their family and loved ones,

Edited August 30, 2011 by HellfireJack

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I am having a hard time seeing how they are going to ban any prayer at a funeral. What the hell are they going to do? Shoot you? Maybe it will be live ammo in the rifle squads guns. LOL

Seriously I am sure that "what we have here... is a failure to communicate" Anybody know the movie that quote is from?

I am sure that whatever that lady thought she was doing, it will be straightened out before long, since she has obviously overstepped some boundries here, both constitutional and career wise. Her next job may well be in Nome, Alaska .

Paul Newman, Cool Hand Luke.Bob

[Lobo]

They're not banning prayer at funerals. They're stopping a problem with people interjecting their beliefs into the funeral services of someone else who may not follow the same belief system.

The only way to effectively do that is to get all prayers and speeches that include religious beliefs approved prior to the service.

If there was a Christian soldier who fell in Iraq and a Muslim person demanding the right to come to his funeral and pray to and praise Allah and preach about Mohammed during the service I guarantee there would be a problem with it in most cases.

But you can't just demand one sect or religion not be allowed to speak about their beliefs at a funeral. You have to treat everyone the same so this stops that from happening in the most effective manner for all people.

It's not banning prayer. It's ensuring that all people respect the deceased and their family and loved ones,

Now that I have read your reply I know that Ocasio didn't really shut down the cemetery chapel and turn it into a supply room, that a US congressman didn't really attend a funeral there at which he personally witnessed Ocasio preventing the VFW honor guard from performing their burial ritual that invokes the name of God, and that there really wasn't a federal court order enjoining Ocasio from censoring the use of the words "God" and "Jesus Christ" by employees and volunteers at the cemetery (which Ocasio continues to defy and violate on a daily basis) pending final resolution of the lawsuit.

You have certainly straightened me out on this situation. I should have known that dozens of VA cemetery employees and volunteers couldn't possibly be telling the truth, that a US congressman checking out the situation was probably lying about what he saw, and that a Christian minister's prayer during a Memorial Day observance at the Houston National Cemetery wasn't really censored by Ocasio to remove every reference to "God" and "Jesus Christ".

I should have known that a Google search for "national cemetery houston prayer ban" that turned up 1,550,000 related hits couldn't possibly be accurate.

I guess I'm just gullible, ready to believe anything. That has to be the answer, doesn't it?

[HellfireJack]

LOL! Do you really think that a Google search that provides a lot of results for a controversial subject is any way to judge the accuracy of your report of it? The mere fact that there is a lawsuit says there are two sides to this coin. Since you're the one flabbergasted by this ordeal do you think maybe it's you who hasn't taken a step back to look at the whole picture? Are you sure your answer is the only one that can possibly be right? Really? Why ever is there even a lawsuit then?

I'm not saying the news reports are inaccurate and I defy you to show where in my post I have. I'm saying there's a difference between censoring or banning something (as people are claiming) and merely controlling it and making sure it's usage is appropriate out of respect for the dead. To BAN something is to not allow it to happen ever. To censor is to suppress it from happening as well. Obviously this hasn't happened since prayer and the use of religious beliefs are allowed as long as permission is received beforehand. That's not banning nor is it censorship. I'm sure that's where the lawsuit stems from. eh? Get what I'm saying?

I'm sorry but someone bringing their god into someone else's funeral when they don't worship that god can be very disrespectful and can even be traumatizing to the family of the deceased. Perhaps you might want a Muslim dancing on your grave when your dead but I don't. I don't want a Christian doing it either but that's neither here nor there.

I guess you don't care about other people's beliefs. That's fine with me friend but don't expect me or others to not care as well. It doesn't make you gullible to have a different opinion than I do and it doesn't make me gullible because you have a different opinion than I do either. It just means I see things differently than you do. I can understand why someone would do this and I can see situations where this is beneficial. You can't.

[rdb]

This conversation is beginning to get overheated already, even for TT&E. I suggest we just let the two opinions stand, and remember this is a site for Leatherworkers. Two things you don't discuss in the bar...religion and politics, sorry for my lapse in judgement.

[HellfireJack]

Oh I agree rdb. I wasn't really planning on drawing this out too much. Obviously there's more than one opinion here otherwise it wouldn't be an issue. I hope Lobo didn't take offense to me providing mine. You're right. Some people are rather touchy about their religion.

[wildrose]

MY point is that NO ONE should have the right to tell MY FAMILY how to pray at my funeral. And that funeral prayer should NOT have to have prior approval. I don't care if they're praying to Allah or the Goddess or whoever. Now, I don't know, maybe military funerals are run differently? But let me tell you, I don't think it's right to tell a family how to celebrate the passing of their loved one.

[HellfireJack]

Luckily, wildrose, that's not actually what's happening. I agree with you and, if you look into the matter, so does the VA.

The people who had to submit their speeches and prayers in this instance are the Veterans of Foreign Wars, The American Legion and the National Memorial Ladies. These are not family members. Of course this won't stop random Christians who want to press the issue, which is already happening.

From the VA itself.

"“The idea that invoking the name of God or Jesus is banned at VA national cemeteries is blatantly false,” said VA Press Secretary Josh Taylor in a written statement to Fox News Radio. “The truth is, VA’s policy protects veterans’ families’ rights to pray however they choose at our national cemeteries.”

The idea that they've banned families from prayer is just a knee jerk reaction to not allowing non-family member organizations from injecting their beliefs into funerals without prior approval.

[Lobo]

No offense taken, and no offense intended. The major point that seems to have been missed is that constitutional rights, such as those affirmed in the First Amendment, cease to be rights and become privileges when official permission must be obtained prior to exercising those rights.

HellfireJack is correct in that the current plaintiffs in litigation are VFW, American Legion, and the Memorial Ladies, thus the members of those organizations are seldom (if ever) related to the veterans being interred or their families. However, those organizations are specifically authorized by public law to perform prescribed military honors at burials of veterans, and those honors are only performed when requested by the decedents' families at the time that interment in a national cemetary is applied for. Those organizations do not attend or participate in any veterans' burial unless they have been requested to do so.

The argument that persons engaging in offensive activities during a funeral or interment service be restricted is valid. Such conduct is also covered more than adequately by appropriate laws pertaining to disorderly conduct and other criminal acts.

In the situation under discussion we are looking at organizations created and chartered by the United States Congress and specifically tasked by federal laws and the charters of those organizations with rendering military honors at services for deceased military personnel whose next of kin or designated personal representative have specifically requested their participation. In short, the veterans' families have requested that established rituals be performed at the graveside service and an appointed government official has actively prevented those honors from being performed.

Also to be noted is the fact that a federal judge has entered a temporary injunction preventing Arleen Ocasio from interfering in these ceremonies, pending the outcome of the lawsuit. Ms. Ocasio is clearly in contempt of court for continuing to violate the orders of the court.

This situation is much different than an intentionally disruptive or offensive demonstration perpetrated by some who might intrude upon a veteran's family and friends in a time of grief.

By the way, I am a 2-tour Vietnam veteran, my brother is a Vietnam veteran, my son is a Gulf War veteran, my father was a WW2 veteran, my grandfather was a WW1 veteran, my great-grandfather died in the Civil War less than 50 miles from the family farm, and that farm consists of land granted to an earlier ancestor in lieu of salary due for service in the Revolutionary War. Perhaps I have some standing to demand that VA officials abide by the expressed wishes of families for the funeral services of their loved ones in national cemeteries, including the performance of duly adopted military honors by Congressionally-chartered service organizations.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Lobo

[wildrose]

Both of you have made valid points, and have managed to do it without this descending into a heated battle - which is always good! Debate is not bad when tempers can be kept down. On a personal line, I stand with Lobo.

[HellfireJack]

I'm glad you and Wildrose are devout in your belief that your own funeral should be the way you want it. I don't see the VA stopping that from happening and I see them as actually working towards ensuring it happens the way you want by not allowing others to make your funeral what they want.

To be duly authorized to do something doesn't give you a ability to do it anywhere and at any time you wish and it doesn't necessarily grant you any rights. Priests are authorized to perform marriage ceremonies and yet they cannot force a marriage ceremony on two people who don't want to be married by the priest. It's easy to show that authorization has nothing to do with this situation. I'm authorized to act as a notary. I can't run around forcing people to allow me to notarize things and then force them to pay me a dollar each time it happens. Pretty much all of us are authorized to drive a car and yet we cannot drive that car down the sidewalk of a public street. There are limits to all authorization.

It seems to me you're thinking entirely about your own situation and completely forgetting the situation of millions of other soldiers who will fall and be buried. Do they not have a say in how their funerals are done because you're OK with some third party group praying at your funeral? All other funerals for fallen soldiers must have third part prayers because you wish it at yours? Are you saying I don't have a say in mine when I don't want something to happen? This seems to be your implication. Just because you want something to happen doesn't mean every soldier does. I don't care how many people in your family served. That doesn't change the fact that you do not share the views of every American soldier. That's easy enough to show.

You do have a say in your own funeral. I completely agree with you. That alone implies you or your family wants something to happen. Not a single person, the VA director included, is saying it's different or forcing it.

Sometimes these groups do not consult the families on their wishes. It doesn't matter who chartered them. They will perform their services whether asked or not. So the VA is ensuring a problem doesn't happens. Obviously a problem has occurred where it was necessary to enact this. I kind of see it as a gray area that has been un-"gray"-ed and some people who were using that gray area just don't like it.

The situation is exactly the same as any other disruption or demonstration though. Their appearance is entirely voluntary and if the family does not wish them to be present then they should not be present. If the family does not wish them to talk about their gods then they shouldn't be talking about them. Any complication arising from one of these groups' involvement falls on those who run the cemetery who are basically forced to allow these volunteer groups to perform their services.

The only injunction the courts have out stopping the anyone from acting is about not stopping a reverend (connected to one of the groups) who is purposely forcing the issue. That's rather non-Christian if you ask me. I don't recall anywhere Jesus told his followers to go disrespect the dead by forcing political action at their funerals just to make a point.

When it comes down to it no right of ours, including our first amendment right, allows us to just force our religions onto others if they do not want it.

Either way that's about it from me on the matter. I've lain my opinions pretty cleanly. I can see where you're coming from but knowing not everyone thinks and acts like you keeps me from agreeing with you on this.

[wildrose]

Oh, I DO agree, no one's beliefs should be forced on another, esp. at a funeral. My point was, I don't think it's right to have to have a prayer approved by a third party IF the family has invited the reverend/rabbi/whatever to be there. Now, if the family has not approved the speaker, why is the speaker there at all? Isn't that like crashing a wedding reception and doing a toast? Just seems weird to me. But again, maybe I'm not understanding how military funerals are arranged.

[Lobo]

OK, I will try one more time to put all of this into perspective:

1. Honorably discharged US veteran passes away.

2. Veteran's family/next of kin/personal representative submits request for interment at national cemetery.

3. Veteran's family/next of kin/personal representative requests military honors by VFW and/or American Legion team, as authorized by congressional charter and federal law.

4. Hearse arrives at national cemetery containing the veteran's remains for interment.

5. Family and friends arrive at national cemetery for the purpose of participating in the ceremonies.

6. Ritual team (VFW, American Legion, perhaps both) arrive at the national cemetery.

7. Family's pastor, rabbi, imam, medicine man, voodoo priestess, or other religious leader arrives at the national cemetery.

8. The Memorial Ladies arrive at the national cemetery.

9. Ritual team is prohibited from saying the words "God", "Jesus Christ", "Allah", "Great Spirit", "Holy Father", "Earth Goddess", etc.

10. Pastor, rabbi, imam, medicine man, voodoo priestess, or other religious leader is either (a) not permitted to pray unless the prayer was submitted in advance in writing, pre-approved for content, and/or censored by national cemetery director; or ( permitted to offer prayer that has passed approval for content by a government official.

11. The Memorial Ladies are forbidden to say the words "God Bless you" to family members and friends.

12. Military ritual team is not permitted to say the words "God Bless you" when presenting the burial flag to widow, son, father, mother, etc.

13. Families complaints reach a Texas congressman.

14. Ritual teams complaints reach a Texas congressman.

15. Memorial Ladies complaints reach a Texas congressman.

16. Texas Congressman attends a burial service and personally observes national cemetery director interfering with services and prayers.

17. Lawsuit filed citing First Amendment issues and federal law.

18. Federal judge issues an injunction forbidding interference with services pending resolution of the issues at trial.

19. National cemetery director ignores court order and continues the interference.

20. The Houston National Cemetery chapel is converted to a storage room, denying families from any facility for communal prayer, devotion, reflection, etc.

There certainly doesn't seem to be much difficulty in seeing just whose rights are being violated, who is being imposed upon, or what the source of the problem is, at least not to me. It appears to be nothing more than politically correct "tolerance" being imposed by official intolerance.

Others may see this as the government protecting people from some imposition of religious content on unwilling participants. I view this as unlawful and unconstitutional government intrusion on the private affairs and practices of citizens, and doing so during a time of loss and grief.

By the way, I just read that the clergy has been banned from the planned events at the World Trade Center on 9/11/2011, tenth anniversary of the most deadly attack on US soil in our history. Anecdotal certainly, but such things might be signs of a pattern of government activity.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Lobo

[HellfireJack]

You're saying that these are events from one actual funeral? I think you're pulling our legs here or just asking us to accept many events that happened over a period of time, or not even at an actual funeral, as occurring during one funeral.

What funeral did this happen at? Can you show us the story?

I think you're confusing these people's outrage with being told how the VA wants these private groups to perform their free volunteer services with actual events that occurred.

The pastor who said a prayer was simply not allowed to do so "in Jesus name" at a public event. This wasn't at a funeral as far as I know. It was a Memorial Day service at the cemetery. He was allowed to say the prayer just not to attribute it solely to his religion. Prayers at public events by private groups should be all inclusive.

[wildrose]

Firefighters and First Responders aren't allowed at the WTC memorial event either, from what I've read.

[Lobo]

You're saying that these are events from one actual funeral? I think you're pulling our legs here or just asking us to accept many events that happened over a period of time, or not even at an actual funeral, as occurring during one funeral.

What funeral did this happen at? Can you show us the story?

I think you're confusing these people's outrage with being told how the VA wants these private groups to perform their free volunteer services with actual events that occurred.

The pastor who said a prayer was simply not allowed to do so "in Jesus name" at a public event. This wasn't at a funeral as far as I know. It was a Memorial Day service at the cemetery. He was allowed to say the prayer just not to attribute it solely to his religion. Prayers at public events by private groups should be all inclusive.

HellfireJack:

You seem to be taking this matter quite personally, and you appear to be intentionally argumentative and, quite frankly borderline rude, so I will withdraw from this discussion and leave the field to you. Anyone who wishes to determine the facts of the case in federal court can easily find those. Anyone who wants to examine the evidence can easily do so.

You may do as you wish. I hope that you will take a deep breath or two, perhaps allow some of your anger and hostility to vent, then maybe you will be able to see things more clearly.

Best regards.

[HellfireJack]

Oh my.. Righteous indignation does not suit anyone Lobo. I'm not being argumentative at all. There's no anger in me at all towards you and I can't find anything within my post that even suggests emotional distress or even rudeness.

I merely asked you to give us the actual story(s) that supports the chain of events you claim happened at a funeral. If you can't do it it's OK friend. There's obviously a lot more to the events happening in Houston than being mentioned here. I'm quite sure the VA didn't go into someone's funeral and make a scene. I'm positive that they have spoken several times withe the VFW and other groups about conducting ceremonies and that what you're speaking of is the culmination of the back and forth dispute between them rather than actual events that have occurred.

No family's religious representative was forbidden from doing anything at a funeral. At least none that you nor I can show. The only people who were told not to do things were third party groups who who deal with the VA on a regular basis and should have the duty of respecting the dead and the loved one's for whom they perform these actions rather than just doing as they please because they think they have a right.

No need to make false assessments of my emotional state though in either case. If you think I'm angry I'd suggest you just ask me rather than making accusations. I'm quite positive that I bear you no ill will.

You take care.

[wildrose]

All sides having had their say, I'm closing the topic. I'm sure we'll see on the news how this situation develops.