Outrageous!

[Lobo]

Reported in the Sept. 2011 issue of VFW magazine.

The US National Cemetery at Houston, TX, has banned prayers at veterans' funerals, unless requested in advance in writing and the prayer is submitted for prior approval. This policy was enacted by cemetary director Arleen Ocasio.

Issues related to First Amendment rights and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act have brought a lawsuit from the Liberty Institute on behalf of the VFW and American Legion.

As a veteran I am shocked. As an American I am outraged. I will be making myself heard at:

Houston National Cemetery

10410 Veterans Memorial Drive

Houston, TX 77028

281-447-8686

and at my congressman's office, my senators' offices, and at the Secretary of Veterans Affairs office.

This policy cannot be permitted to stand even a moment longer.

[wildrose]

That is ridiculous. If the family of the dead wants to say a prayer, what is wrong with that? Next they'll be telling us we can't pray in church! (God forbid)

[WyomingSlick]

I am having a hard time seeing how they are going to ban any prayer at a funeral. What the hell are they going to do? Shoot you? Maybe it will be live ammo in the rifle squads guns. LOL

Seriously I am sure that "what we have here... is a failure to communicate" Anybody know the movie that quote is from?

I am sure that whatever that lady thought she was doing, it will be straightened out before long, since she has obviously overstepped some boundries here, both constitutional and career wise. Her next job may well be in Nome, Alaska .

[rdb]

The actual problem came about because, there is a movement afoot to force a Christian prayer even into a veterans' funeral who was an atheist. The Family objected, and still the Christians wanted their prayer included. Thus the requirement for approval ahead of time. There was no attempt to prevent prayer in a religious family's service, only the forcing of religious apects into a non-religious event.

[HellfireJack]

They're not banning prayer at funerals. They're stopping a problem with people interjecting their beliefs into the funeral services of someone else who may not follow the same belief system.

The only way to effectively do that is to get all prayers and speeches that include religious beliefs approved prior to the service.

If there was a Christian soldier who fell in Iraq and a Muslim person demanding the right to come to his funeral and pray to and praise Allah and preach about Mohammed during the service I guarantee there would be a problem with it in most cases.

But you can't just demand one sect or religion not be allowed to speak about their beliefs at a funeral. You have to treat everyone the same so this stops that from happening in the most effective manner for all people.

It's not banning prayer. It's ensuring that all people respect the deceased and their family and loved ones,

Edited August 30, 2011 by HellfireJack

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I am having a hard time seeing how they are going to ban any prayer at a funeral. What the hell are they going to do? Shoot you? Maybe it will be live ammo in the rifle squads guns. LOL

Seriously I am sure that "what we have here... is a failure to communicate" Anybody know the movie that quote is from?

I am sure that whatever that lady thought she was doing, it will be straightened out before long, since she has obviously overstepped some boundries here, both constitutional and career wise. Her next job may well be in Nome, Alaska .

Paul Newman, Cool Hand Luke.Bob

[Lobo]

They're not banning prayer at funerals. They're stopping a problem with people interjecting their beliefs into the funeral services of someone else who may not follow the same belief system.

The only way to effectively do that is to get all prayers and speeches that include religious beliefs approved prior to the service.

If there was a Christian soldier who fell in Iraq and a Muslim person demanding the right to come to his funeral and pray to and praise Allah and preach about Mohammed during the service I guarantee there would be a problem with it in most cases.

But you can't just demand one sect or religion not be allowed to speak about their beliefs at a funeral. You have to treat everyone the same so this stops that from happening in the most effective manner for all people.

It's not banning prayer. It's ensuring that all people respect the deceased and their family and loved ones,

Now that I have read your reply I know that Ocasio didn't really shut down the cemetery chapel and turn it into a supply room, that a US congressman didn't really attend a funeral there at which he personally witnessed Ocasio preventing the VFW honor guard from performing their burial ritual that invokes the name of God, and that there really wasn't a federal court order enjoining Ocasio from censoring the use of the words "God" and "Jesus Christ" by employees and volunteers at the cemetery (which Ocasio continues to defy and violate on a daily basis) pending final resolution of the lawsuit.

You have certainly straightened me out on this situation. I should have known that dozens of VA cemetery employees and volunteers couldn't possibly be telling the truth, that a US congressman checking out the situation was probably lying about what he saw, and that a Christian minister's prayer during a Memorial Day observance at the Houston National Cemetery wasn't really censored by Ocasio to remove every reference to "God" and "Jesus Christ".

I should have known that a Google search for "national cemetery houston prayer ban" that turned up 1,550,000 related hits couldn't possibly be accurate.

I guess I'm just gullible, ready to believe anything. That has to be the answer, doesn't it?

[HellfireJack]

LOL! Do you really think that a Google search that provides a lot of results for a controversial subject is any way to judge the accuracy of your report of it? The mere fact that there is a lawsuit says there are two sides to this coin. Since you're the one flabbergasted by this ordeal do you think maybe it's you who hasn't taken a step back to look at the whole picture? Are you sure your answer is the only one that can possibly be right? Really? Why ever is there even a lawsuit then?

I'm not saying the news reports are inaccurate and I defy you to show where in my post I have. I'm saying there's a difference between censoring or banning something (as people are claiming) and merely controlling it and making sure it's usage is appropriate out of respect for the dead. To BAN something is to not allow it to happen ever. To censor is to suppress it from happening as well. Obviously this hasn't happened since prayer and the use of religious beliefs are allowed as long as permission is received beforehand. That's not banning nor is it censorship. I'm sure that's where the lawsuit stems from. eh? Get what I'm saying?

I'm sorry but someone bringing their god into someone else's funeral when they don't worship that god can be very disrespectful and can even be traumatizing to the family of the deceased. Perhaps you might want a Muslim dancing on your grave when your dead but I don't. I don't want a Christian doing it either but that's neither here nor there.

I guess you don't care about other people's beliefs. That's fine with me friend but don't expect me or others to not care as well. It doesn't make you gullible to have a different opinion than I do and it doesn't make me gullible because you have a different opinion than I do either. It just means I see things differently than you do. I can understand why someone would do this and I can see situations where this is beneficial. You can't.

[rdb]

This conversation is beginning to get overheated already, even for TT&E. I suggest we just let the two opinions stand, and remember this is a site for Leatherworkers. Two things you don't discuss in the bar...religion and politics, sorry for my lapse in judgement.

[HellfireJack]

Oh I agree rdb. I wasn't really planning on drawing this out too much. Obviously there's more than one opinion here otherwise it wouldn't be an issue. I hope Lobo didn't take offense to me providing mine. You're right. Some people are rather touchy about their religion.