Ecoflow Professional Waterstains

[Shooter McGavin]

Stopped at Tandy today for some supplies and noticed a new product on the rack. It is called Professional Waterstains and made by eco-flow.

I've tried the other eco-flow dies and stains and was less than impressed. The Professional Waterstains state they are a water based solution/emulsion of soft waxes, synthetic resins, and antistatic agents.

So the manage opens a bottle and rubs some on a scrap of leather. It looked very nice and had a great feel to it right away, similar to what I'm accustomed to with Bridle Leathers, so I grabbed an 8.5 ounce bottle of Black and headed home.

Squirted some on a damp sponge and rubbed it on a piece of scrap Hermann Oak. It covered nicely and had a nice even color. I let it dry for 3 hours then decided to test it for rub off both wet and dry.

Grabbed an old t-shirt and rubbed as hard as I could and got very little color transfer.

I then wet it to the point that I would if I were wet molding a holster, and still no rub off. The water actually beaded up on the surface.

I bent and rolled the leather while wet, no cracking or flaking.

So far I'm pretty impressed. They have a lot of colors and even have a pearl additive. Also in the lineup is a gloss and a matte finish.

I have a lot of stock of super sheen and satin sheen so tomorrow I will test compatibility but I'm really not expecting many surprises.

Just wanted to share and see if anyone else has used this new product.

I dont even see it on their website yet.

[Spinner]

Stopped at Tandy today for some supplies and noticed a new product on the rack. It is called Professional Waterstains and made by eco-flow.

I've tried the other eco-flow dies and stains and was less than impressed. The Professional Waterstains state they are a water based solution/emulsion of soft waxes, synthetic resins, and antistatic agents.

So the manage opens a bottle and rubs some on a scrap of leather. It looked very nice and had a great feel to it right away, similar to what I'm accustomed to with Bridle Leathers, so I grabbed an 8.5 ounce bottle of Black and headed home.

Squirted some on a damp sponge and rubbed it on a piece of scrap Hermann Oak. It covered nicely and had a nice even color. I let it dry for 3 hours then decided to test it for rub off both wet and dry.

Grabbed an old t-shirt and rubbed as hard as I could and got very little color transfer.

I then wet it to the point that I would if I were wet molding a holster, and still no rub off. The water actually beaded up on the surface.

I bent and rolled the leather while wet, no cracking or flaking.

So far I'm pretty impressed. They have a lot of colors and even have a pearl additive. Also in the lineup is a gloss and a matte finish.

I have a lot of stock of super sheen and satin sheen so tomorrow I will test compatibility but I'm really not expecting many surprises.

Just wanted to share and see if anyone else has used this new product.

I dont even see it on their website yet.

Thanks for the advance testing Shooter. Sounds interesting so far. How about second applications?

Have you tried to apply a second coat over the first now that it should be dry and if so how did that go if water was previously beading up on the surface?

How about drying time compared to spirit & oil based dyes? Price compared to those also?

Sounds like Tandy may be finally getting on the ball!

Chris

[Leerwerker]

I have been playing with it a bit too and I am also impressed with the black!

The other colors are very rich deep colors. The drying time is long, compared to spirit based dyes, but the outcome is worth the wait. Of course, bacause the leather thinks it is wet, it darkens and you cannot tell what the final outcome would be until it dries and gets lighter.

I did find however, that it really thins out nicely - sometimes some dyes loose their integrity when you dilute them too much, but not these. I mixed a highly diluted light brown with the gold additive and the result was very eye-catching!

I have been a fan of Dubbin ever since I was in the army in 1976 and it softened my boots. When I started doing leatherwork in 1978, Dubbin was my #1 choice for a conditioner and since I have moved to the US, I have even made my own when I could not find it locally. Dr Jackson's Hide Rejuvenator came a close second. BUT, NOW, I think I have found the ultimate leather conditioner:

Everything I have tested this on convinced me more and more that this is good stuff! I put some thick on tooled leather - it completely penetrated without leaving anything behind in the impressions.

I found the following with the price of these products: compared to other dyes, they are more expensive per fl. ounce, but definitely cheaper if you compare dollars paid for inches covered. Especially this conditioner cream.

[TwinOaks]

While you're testing / evaluating it, do you mind taking a slice through one end and reporting the penetration depth?

[hiloboy]

I sure hope this stuff is for real..that would really help me with my shipping.. trying to get something here that will work and not cost a arm and a leg and take forever to get here..

[lonestar tactical]

I went to Tandy this morning to pick up some hardware and was talking to the manager. He was "playing" with the black and also some of the lighter brown on some scraps. I was very impressed with the color - it seems very rich. LIttle to no rub off. I will check back with him in a couple of weeks and see what the virdict is. He has always been great to deal with and always stops me from spending money on dumb stuff lol.

Business price for the smallest bottle (larger than small eco flow standard bottles) was something like 12.00 and some change.

SIDE NOTE - they also had some very nice stingray in stock for a very good price. Black only.

Be Safe,

Doc

[Shooter McGavin]

Well, not much in the way of penetration. However, it bonds very well to the leather. I actually scraped through some Fiebings Pro Oil dye easier than I got through this Watercolor stuff.

No adverse reactions from the super sheen or satin sheen.

Due to lack of penetration, it is indeed possible to tool through this.

[TwinOaks]

From the descriptions, it sounds like this is almost a form of liquid shoe polish, but in a water base. Perhaps even a compound that uses pigments and Satin/Super sheen. Kinda like the black resolene? I'm getting curious about it now, and may have to order some for experimentation....hang on, lemme find my 'mad chemist' hat. It'll be interesting to see how well this stuff sprays. I just dropped a note to Kevin @ SLC, to see if they'll be carrying it, and I'll post the info back here when I get a reply. Thanks for doing the preliminary reviews on it.

[Spinner]

From the descriptions, it sounds like this is almost a form of liquid shoe polish, but in a water base. Perhaps even a compound that uses pigments and Satin/Super sheen. Kinda like the black resolene? I'm getting curious about it now, and may have to order some for experimentation....hang on, lemme find my 'mad chemist' hat. It'll be interesting to see how well this stuff sprays. I just dropped a note to Kevin @ SLC, to see if they'll be carrying it, and I'll post the info back here when I get a reply. Thanks for doing the preliminary reviews on it.

Never fear Mike, another mad scientist is here! I picked some up today along with the Matte finish to do some testing with. The sales girl at Tandy was nice enough to open a bottle for me to check it out before buying and just a quick wipe with a paper towel gave a nice top coat but very little penetration. Stuff doesn't want to rub off though, I even wiped out my knife and scraped the grain side to see how bad it would scuff. So I bought some and will be testing it tomorrow including a few tests with spraying, mulitple coats, different finishes and seeing if it will go over other products like the Pro Oil Dye, etc. Results to come soon!

Chris

[hiloboy]

well what was the verdict on this stuff buy or save my money.. i sure hope this stuff is for real. i want to thank you guys for letting us know what you think of this and all the other stuff on this site.it sure help when you live were leather people are far and few..and no stores that even sells leather products..mahalos again for all your help..

[Spinner]

well what was the verdict on this stuff buy or save my money.. i sure hope this stuff is for real. i want to thank you guys for letting us know what you think of this and all the other stuff on this site.it sure help when you live were leather people are far and few..and no stores that even sells leather products..mahalos again for all your help..

I did end up picking up a bottle of black and a bottle of the matte finish. So far I have only been able to play with it and then took a chance and used it on a full bib. I have to say, it's easy to use, makes a great deep color and buffs to a nice low satin sheen. Penetration is a bit less than I'd like for motorcycle gear but the other test, applying it over two coats of Pro-Oil Black resulted in a very nice color and good penetration to boot. I'll take a picture tomorrow of the bib in the sun. Topped it with Leather Balm with Atom Wax and it's become the color and finish sheen I've been trying to achieve for quite awhile. I'm going to make some vinegroon soon but in the meantime this combination makes for a very nice & durable color system.

Short answer, it's pretty decent stuff and much better than the regular eco-flow products. +1 to Tandy for getting it right.

[hiloboy]

I did end up picking up a bottle of black and a bottle of the matte finish. So far I have only been able to play with it and then took a chance and used it on a full bib. I have to say, it's easy to use, makes a great deep color and buffs to a nice low satin sheen. Penetration is a bit less than I'd like for motorcycle gear but the other test, applying it over two coats of Pro-Oil Black resulted in a very nice color and good penetration to boot. I'll take a picture tomorrow of the bib in the sun. Topped it with Leather Balm with Atom Wax and it's become the color and finish sheen I've been trying to achieve for quite awhile. I'm going to make some vinegroon soon but in the meantime this combination makes for a very nice & durable color system.

Short answer, it's pretty decent stuff and much better than the regular eco-flow products. +1 to Tandy for getting it right.

Mahalos Spinner, for the heads up on this product.. it sounds like what i need.. now do you think it would work if applied with a airbrush?

[Spinner]

Mahalos Spinner, for the heads up on this product.. it sounds like what i need.. now do you think it would work if applied with a airbrush?

Out of the bottle it's a little thick for an airbrush but it is water based so it can be thinned easily. I'd only add as much as you need to to get it to spray, too thin and it will behave like airbrush paint and have no penetration at all, just be a top coat. If the airbrush isn't a necessity, this stuff goes on easily with a soft sponge and I didn't have any lines or gradations in the application. It applies evenly and then you simply let it dry for 5 minutes or so and then buff it. Very little rub off.

[hiloboy]

Out of the bottle it's a little thick for an airbrush but it is water based so it can be thinned easily. I'd only add as much as you need to to get it to spray, too thin and it will behave like airbrush paint and have no penetration at all, just be a top coat. If the airbrush isn't a necessity, this stuff goes on easily with a soft sponge and I didn't have any lines or gradations in the application. It applies evenly and then you simply let it dry for 5 minutes or so and then buff it. Very little rub off.

thanks again for the info.. it sounds like it some pretty good stuff to work with. and if it covers evenly with a sponge that works for me. to get better penetration. and like you said not just set on top like a top coat..if you find anymore ways to use this stuff please share.. ever thing helps..Aloha later's my friend

Edited September 29, 2011 by hiloboy

[Spinner]

thanks again for the info.. it sounds like it some pretty good stuff to work with. and if it covers evenly with a sponge that works for me. to get better penetration. and like you said not just set on top like a top coat..if you find anymore ways to use this stuff please share.. ever thing helps..Aloha later's my friend

Only other suggestion I have is as I mentioned above, hit it with at least one good coat of regular dye first to get a base color down. It will help if the piece gets scratched as the Waterstains only penetrate 1/64" average & 1/32" maximum from what I can tell.

Here's a picture (under shop lights) of the bib I did tonight with the Waterstains. ( Black Pro Oil dye base coat, 2 coats of Black Waterstain, neatsfoot oil, Leather Balm with Atom Wax followed up by Pecard's Weatherproof Motorcycle Dressing). Now to do all of the lacing...

Edited September 29, 2011 by Spinner

[electrathon]

Here was my test. I took two scraps of leather (the same piece cut in two for a fair test). I used Fiebings on one and waterstain on the other , both brown. I applied both in a similar manor, flooding it onto a piece of sheep fur and then wet rubbing it onto the leather. Waited a short time (10 seconds) and wiped it off. Then buffed with clean wool fur scrap. Let them both dry. The color was adequate on the waterstain, but looked more paint-like than the Fiebings. Took out my knife and trimmed along one edge. The waterstain had virtually no penetration, the Fiebings went in about 1/3 of the way. I then took the test pieces and dragged the corner across the sidewalk (about 3 inches). The surface rubbed totally off both test pieces. The waterstain sample had zero color left, all you saw was the leather. The Fiebings piece had 100% color left, just no surface.

My impression: I think this would work on something that was not going to receive any wear, like a wall hanging. I would trust the durability about the same as painting the leather. If you are going to use the item (wallet, holster, seat) I feel you will have far better durability (and better look) from Fiebings dye than you will with the waterstain. I am disappointed, was hopeful.

Aaron

[Leerwerker]

Aaron,

This was not a fair test - one is a dye and the other a stain - they are supposed to be applied differently and with different effect. Neither of these should be wiped off - with the fiebings you should not have had anything to wipe off and with the water based stain, you should apply it until it is even and then also just leave it be. the water based stain probably takes about 50% longer to apply to get the same coverage as you would get with the Fiebings dyes.

Here was my test. ....... I applied both in a similar manor, flooding it onto a piece of sheep fur and then wet rubbing it onto the leather. Waited a short time (10 seconds) and wiped it off. .........

Aaron

[Spinner]

I agree with you both on different points...

The waterstain is meant to be rubbed in continuously with a sponge whereas dyes work best when flooded. However, the results even when properly applied were the same for me.

The Waterstains make for a great top coat and have some very nice color depth, they simply don't penetrate. But, as I mentioned in another post on the forum, I don't believe they are meant to penetrate otherwise Tandy would have called them dyes, not stains.

Stains by definition are a top coat, meant to give more vibrant colors due to larger pigment particles. Due to their larger size though, the pigment fills in on the top and in the pores of the leather but not the leather cells themselves. This causes them to reflect (or absorb) more light making them more vibrant & lightfast but also makes them more vulnerable to abrasion.

A dye uses a colorant with particles much smaller than a stains pigment particles and can therefore penetrate the cell structures. This gives a more durable & transparent color but this also causes to "pick up" some of the leather's color as well which is why black dye applied directly can have a golden tint to it.

I do agree that on something that is subjected to more use and daily wear like a seat or wallet that folks are better off with just straight dye. But items that aren't likely to be abraded as often like a clutch style purse, notebook, bracelets, etc. that the waterstain over a coat or two of dye will provide richer color and the undercoat of dye will provide more visible "protection" as the item endures normal wear.

Long term, I'll likely stick with Pro-Oil Dye for my projects but for those folks that don't have access to it or simply want to be more eco-friendly I think the Waterstains will be a good addition to the eco-flow dyes as a top coat providing the more vibrant & consistent colors they have been seeking. The more I think about it, I am starting to believe the Waterstains are meant to finish off/compliment the Eco-Flow dyes, not replace them...they are simply two different animals in the coloring world.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Spinner

[electrathon]

Aaron,

This was not a fair test - one is a dye and the other a stain - they are supposed to be applied differently and with different effect. Neither of these should be wiped off - with the fiebings you should not have had anything to wipe off and with the water based stain, you should apply it until it is even and then also just leave it be. the water based stain probably takes about 50% longer to apply to get the same coverage as you would get with the Fiebings dyes.

The store manager had a piece he had done that he had not wiped clean, but had applied with a dauber. It looked like poop. The appearance I got by wiping it down was not a bad appearance, almost on par with the Fiebings. The waterstain had far more coverage than the Fiebings did. The Fiebings was more transparent.

I guess my test was trying for a usability test. If the product won't penetrate by design (a definitional difference between stain and dye) then it defiantly is not a product I would use on my work.

Aaron

Edited October 2, 2011 by electrathon

[Leerwerker]

I agree Spinner.

AND, I just started yesterday with my favorite way of testing dyes and finishes: I coated this strip of leather with the new Pro Waterstain and nothing alse, and will now carry it in my pocket with my keys for a few months I will photograph it regularly and record the progress on my BLOG

I do agree that on something that is subjected to more use and daily wear like a seat or wallet that folks are better off with just straight dye. But items that aren't likely to be abraded as often like a clutch style purse, notebook, bracelets, etc. that the waterstain over a coat or two of dye will provide richer color and the undercoat of dye will provide more visible "protection" as the item endures normal wear.

....... The more I think about it, I am starting to believe the Waterstains are meant to finish off/compliment the Eco-Flow dyes, not replace them...they are simply two different animals in the coloring world.

[electrathon]

I have to ask. Do you consider this to be an acceptable apearance? Looks a lot like the one I saw at Tandy that I commented looked like poop. If I did a project and it came out with this horible of color variations I would be reaching for the black.

[electrathon]

OK i just looked at your blog and I now understand. Your work looks stunning. The colors that you have painted some of the flowers is superb. The style of color that you use is something I have never done. I tend to lean far more old school and everything is brown. I used to leave the leather natural but now I tend to dye everything a shade of brown.

[Spinner]

The store manager had a piece he had done that he had not wiped clean, but had applied with a dauber. It looked like poop. The appearance I got by wiping it down was not a bad appearance, almost on par with the Fiebings. The waterstain had far more coverage than the Fiebings did. The Fiebings was more transparent.

I guess my test was trying for a usability test. If the product won't penetrate by design (a definitional difference between stain and dye) then it defiantly is not a product I would use on my work.

Aaron

I agree 100% about the dauber and not wiping down. The funny thing is, the manager didn't even take the time to learn about his own product. The label is very specific in stating, "Apply using a sponge in a circular motion. Allow to dry. Buff."

Maybe I'm just weird this way but I tend to follow the recommended instructions as it usually means someone tested it to find the best way to put it on but then again, I also buy specific brushes for acrylic painting versus watercolors & oils and have 5 different airbrushes, each for a particular type of color spraying. Could be that I'm just a bit OCD with tools and such.

[HellfireJack]

Stains and paints are the same thing. They're both a carrier loaded with pigment with an added binder. Paint merely dries opaque where stain allows the grain and other coloring to show through. There shouldn't be any real penetration with a stain. It should simply bind with the surface fibers. The only way to get penetration with a stain is to add dye to the stain. Then you'll see penetration wherever the leather is able to leech the dye out of the stain. The Tandy Ecoflow Pro Waterstain says it has a dye added so you'll probably get a small amount of penetration at best.

[Leerwerker]

Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the compliment. I will come up with a few pieces where the stain is very even. We are still messing about a bit to see how well we can get to all the quirks of the product.

The sponge works really well. You just keep on in circles until the colors are evenly spread and then you have to wait for it to dry to see how light the color turns out. I tried some 1/4" trimmed sheep wool and that also worked well as an applicator, especially in getting a two tone effect.

I have yet to try the new high density sponges that are out there now - judging by their price, they better be good!

Oh, one more plus point I discovered about the new stains - they wash out of daubers, sponges, brushes and containers real easy....

OK i just looked at your blog and I now understand. Your work looks stunning. The colors that you have painted some of the flowers is superb. The style of color that you use is something I have never done. I tend to lean far more old school and everything is brown. I used to leave the leather natural but now I tend to dye everything a shade of brown.