Got My Boss Today-Merry Christmas

[mlapaglia]

I set it up per the video. Its threaded correctly including going around the secondary tension. IT stitches nicely. Bobbin and thread tension seem good. The thread crosses in the middle of the leather.

Here is my problem. The machine is set up with 277 thread top and bottom and a 794-200 needle, when I pull the handle all the way down its smooth as class but when I push it back about 1/2 of the way back it starts to jam up and make a clicking noise that is not present on the video. Plus the push can not be done smoothly. If there is no thread in the machine then it pulls and pushes smoothly but with the machine threaded up and tensioned what I believe is correctly it tends to hang up when the thread tension arm starts to move back to position. I can push past it but it does not feel like it should. It gives me 2 clicks. The second one is almost a grinding sound. and it sticks for a sec but I can return the arm to the full position with a little more pressure.

any ideas?

Thanks

Michael

[TwinOaks]

Check the needle alignment, especially the position of the scarfed section. Look inside the shuttle and see if you can tell when the hook passes the needle, and ensure it's not hitting.

If the hook isn't hitting the needle, it sounds like you might have a bit of short-stroke issue. I've found that I occasionally get a dead soldier on the back side caused by the short stroke...that'll cause it to bind up when the hook rotates back to it's resting position and snags the loose loop. Be sure you're stroking the arm all the way to the stops...every time.

While you're stitching, reach up and pull a 3-4 inch loop of thread down between the thread guide and the first (actually identified as the secondary tensioner) tensioner you come to. Pull a slack loop every 6-8 stitches so the thread is not under additional tension going into the secondary tensioner. This keeps the take up arm pulling tension against the tension disks and NOT against the thread coming off the spool....which can be, at times, loose and free or hanging up as it pulls off the bottom...or a loop gets crossed..etc.

Frank (member here) told me that tip and it's been the single most helpful in keeping stitching smooth.

Other than that, can you get a pic of where it's hanging up?

[mlapaglia]

Check the needle alignment, especially the position of the scarfed section. Look inside the shuttle and see if you can tell when the hook passes the needle, and ensure it's not hitting.

If the hook isn't hitting the needle, it sounds like you might have a bit of short-stroke issue. I've found that I occasionally get a dead soldier on the back side caused by the short stroke...that'll cause it to bind up when the hook rotates back to it's resting position and snags the loose loop. Be sure you're stroking the arm all the way to the stops...every time.

While you're stitching, reach up and pull a 3-4 inch loop of thread down between the thread guide and the first (actually identified as the secondary tensioner) tensioner you come to. Pull a slack loop every 6-8 stitches so the thread is not under additional tension going into the secondary tensioner. This keeps the take up arm pulling tension against the tension disks and NOT against the thread coming off the spool....which can be, at times, loose and free or hanging up as it pulls off the bottom...or a loop gets crossed..etc.

Frank (member here) told me that tip and it's been the single most helpful in keeping stitching smooth.

Other than that, can you get a pic of where it's hanging up?

Thanks Mike

At this time its just not working at all. The arm doesn't seem to pull as far forward as it should. The presser foot locks up and the cam is not turning enough to let the presser foot lower itself at the end of the stroke. The rack gear no longer hits the bolt in the forward position and there is no offset where the two rack gears meet. I did try putting one there and adjusting the timing and that didnt fix it so I put it all back. The shuttle position is just a mm past 12 but I have not changed that yet. Mofing it one tooth puts it at 11:00 so its much closer where it is.

If I rotate the cam to normal position then I can lift the presser foot. But the first pull of the handle and it hangs up again.

Remember that feeling on Christmas morning when one of your toys was broken

Anyone with ideas is welcome to call me. 303 eight eight one 1045. I can call you back and make it my dime if you like.

HELP if someone has an idea.

Michael

Edited December 25, 2011 by mlapaglia

[Denster]

It sounds like you have a timing issue. With the boss this is a simple situation. You didn't say if this was a new machine or one you purchased used. I am suspecting that you either have a broken tooth on the AR-05 shuttle shaft gear or a broken tooth on the rack where it contacts that part or you have a piece of something in there that is gumming up the works. At least that is what it sounds like. If it is a new machine I would call Tippmann tomorrow and they will take care of you. If it was a used machine go to their website and watch the video on installing a new rack. It's pretty simple and will let you take the rack out to examine it and with a flashlight the shuttle shaft gear. You will also see how to reinstall the rack for correct timing. It's easy and not rocket science. One other possibility is that the lock screw on the needle shaft gear AR-10 came loose and allowed the gear to rotate a bit. Hope this helps.

[Denster]

Here is the link to the troubleshooting video. http://www.tippmannindustrial.com/video.php?image=Trouble&osCsid=e353727d737d6bff8a0cb1542c6bb316 You will need to watch it all the way through as the rack gear is the next to the last segment but you probably should watch all of it anyway. It wouldn't allow me to fast foward to just that segment. Wouldn't be a bad idea to download it and burn it to a cd.

[mlapaglia]

It sounds like you have a timing issue. With the boss this is a simple situation. You didn't say if this was a new machine or one you purchased used. I am suspecting that you either have a broken tooth on the AR-05 shuttle shaft gear or a broken tooth on the rack where it contacts that part or you have a piece of something in there that is gumming up the works. At least that is what it sounds like. If it is a new machine I would call Tippmann tomorrow and they will take care of you. If it was a used machine go to their website and watch the video on installing a new rack. It's pretty simple and will let you take the rack out to examine it and with a flashlight the shuttle shaft gear. You will also see how to reinstall the rack for correct timing. It's easy and not rocket science. One other possibility is that the lock screw on the needle shaft gear AR-10 came loose and allowed the gear to rotate a bit. Hope this helps.

Denster, Its a new Machine that arrived Saturday. I wound thing Tippman would be closed tomorrow because of the holiday today but I will call them as soon as I can.

Thanks for the info. I figured it was something that beyond my ability to tinker since its in warranty. I just hate new things that break I tend to lose confidence on them. It was catching as I described in the first post from the moment I pulled it out of the box. It lasted long enough for me to get the tensions right then failed. I really wonder if this one went through QC. There are paint chips on it and the material edge roller guide shaft is frozen up and wont turn, yes I loosen the screw:)..

I well. I guess I wait. I can pull the rack gear I guess and look at the teeth on the Shuttle shaft gear and the rack gear. Right now I need some coffee and a nap.

Thanks for the info and your help.

Michael

[mlapaglia]

I can see the bottom rack gear completely and the gear it connects with from the hole on the side. There are no teeth issues. So the shuttle may be the problem. I do not have a ring pliers or I would try removing it and looking.

I also found some teeth damage on the top gear on the handle might have been caused from the initial problem when I was trying to complete the cycle and the strange. noise.

I should stop and let it go but its my toy and I want to play with it.

Michael

[Ken Nelson]

I can see the bottom rack gear completely and the gear it connects with from the hole on the side. There are no teeth issues. So the shuttle may be the problem. I do not have a ring pliers or I would try removing it and looking.

I also found some teeth damage on the top gear on the handle might have been caused from the initial problem when I was trying to complete the cycle and the strange. noise.

I should stop and let it go but its my toy and I want to play with it.

Michael

I think the machine looks like it could use some lubrication. Edited December 25, 2011 by Ken Nelson

[TwinOaks]

The edge roller problem is one YOU can fix....and you get to use A HAMMER!!!!!

When I got mine, it was really stiff....barely able to 'roll'. After examination, it was apparent that the roller wheel was pressed onto the shaft just a tiny smidgen too tight. A center punch and a few taps later, it was free wheeling like it should. If nothing else, you get to feel better because you hit something with a hammer.

I can empathize with the feeling......I dropped too few hints as to what I might want this year............I got a Christmas tree ornament, a coffee mug, and a box of "Whopper -malted milk balls". That's it.

Keep a positive outlook and call Tippmann in the morning. If you get an answering machine, leave a message and tell 'em you got a broke Christmas Present.....they''ll take care of you.

[mlapaglia]

The edge roller problem is one YOU can fix....and you get to use A HAMMER!!!!!

When I got mine, it was really stiff....barely able to 'roll'. After examination, it was apparent that the roller wheel was pressed onto the shaft just a tiny smidgen too tight. A center punch and a few taps later, it was free wheeling like it should. If nothing else, you get to feel better because you hit something with a hammer.

I can empathize with the feeling......I dropped too few hints as to what I might want this year............I got a Christmas tree ornament, a coffee mug, and a box of "Whopper -malted milk balls". That's it.

Keep a positive outlook and call Tippmann in the morning. If you get an answering machine, leave a message and tell 'em you got a broke Christmas Present.....they''ll take care of you.

Mike,

I have had Christmass's like that. I feel your pain. Ok I discovered the problem (the second one that showed up today). The screw for the material edger was too long and hitting the shuttle ring as it tried to go by. Backed the screw off and it unlocked and started to stitch again. Horray!!!!!!. Now in the spirit of full disclosure I have to say that I caused the problem. I had taken the material edge guide off this morning and put the screw back in the machine so I would know where it was. Right at this point I was interrupted and didn't get back to the machine for an hour. by then I had forgotten that I had placed the screw back. Tried the machine and it was locking up as described. Had I been able to try it right after putting the screw in I would have known that the change had caused the problem. It was only after I had removed the shuttle that I saw the problem.

So that is fixed but I still have the problem where it catches right at the end of the cycle and clicks and becomes hard to push. Only with tension. It happens at the point of the cycle where the thread take up arm starts to move back yo. The arm is free but that is an easy way to tell you when it starts. Since it is at least working I can wait until tomorrow to talk to Tippmann. Lets hope they are open.

Thank to everyone that made suggestions. Now we know that you can not store the material edge guide screw in the machine without the guide attached.

Denster thanks for pointing me in the direction of the shuttle. FYI the trouble shooting video comes on a DVD with the machine and you can jump to the correct parts unlike the downloaded version.

Mike, Thanks for all your ideas and hand holding. In my case its the shaft not the wheel that will not turn. But I did go out and beat on some metal with a hammer before I came back in and discovered the screw issue. That was a great suggestion.

I need to figure out how to measure the 1 lb pull without buying a trigger pull gauge. I should be able to do something with a bottle of water and some string. Hmmmm....

Thanks again everyone.

Michael

[TwinOaks]

3/4 of a 20oz drink bottle....filled with water.

[mlapaglia]

3/4 of a 20oz drink bottle....filled with water.

'pints a pound the world......'

[Denster]

Mike

What you are probably noticing regarding the click and then the extra pressure at the end of the stroke when actually sewing is the cam on the needle bar that raises the thread takeup arm. On the newer machines the thread takeup arm is springloaded to keep a bit of tension on the thread. The click is when on the upstroke the cam hits the thread takeup bar. The extra pressure at the end of the stroke is the bottom loop being pulled into the leather. If you are really feeling it you probably have the bobbin tension set way too tight. Most new users do this. As to the 1lb for setting bobbin tension this is not a precise measurement. Just back off your bobbin tension till the thread flows smoothly with slight resistance when pulled.

[mlapaglia]

I made a video so anyone that wants to can look at the problem I am having. You might have to crank up your volume its not real loud. Hope it gives someone an idea. Its not constant. Its sometimes less and sometimes more. The last 2 cycles show it well.

Michael

Edited December 26, 2011 by mlapaglia

[Denster]

OK I watched the video several times. I am presuming you have lubricated the machine? For the most part it sounds and acts just like both of my bosses. A few things I noticed. One that table will never do. Way to much wobble. Second you could probably use about two more complete turns on the presser foot pressure screw. Third you do not have it threaded correctly. The thread should pass in front of the pin that is between the double hole pin below the thread guide and the first tensioner. You have it passing behind it in the video.

Regarding the presser foot pressure. It must be enough to hold the material in place as the thread lift bar pulls the stitch into place. If it is not the material will be pulled forward resulting in some bad looking stitches and the inconsistant pull up you are seeing on the thread take up arm. Most folks try to get by with as little pressure as possible to avoind marking the leather and cause themselves all kinds of problems. The marks are easily removed and shouldn't be a concern.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Denster

[mlapaglia]

OK I watched the video several times. I am presuming you have lubricated the machine? For the most part it sounds and acts just like both of my bosses. A few things I noticed. One that table will never do. Way to much wobble. Second you could probably use about two more complete turns on the presser foot pressure screw. Third you do not have it threaded correctly. The thread should pass in front of the pin that is between the double hole pin below the thread guide and the first tensioner. You have it passing behind it in the video.

Regarding the presser foot pressure. It must be enough to hold the material in place as the thread lift bar pulls the stitch into place. If it is not the material will be pulled forward resulting in some bad looking stitches and the inconsistant pull up you are seeing on the thread take up arm. Most folks try to get by with as little pressure as possible to avoind marking the leather and cause themselves all kinds of problems. The marks are easily removed and shouldn't be a concern.

Denster,

Yes it was threaded wrong. I know it goes in front but messed up that time. That didnt change the issue. Yours hangs up just about the end of the cycle and needs to be pushed harder to complete the cycle? The thread and bobbin tension seem to be right as I set the bobbin to one lb and the thread sits in the middle of the hole. no showing on the top or bottom like the manual shows when it needs to be adjusted.

I have not touched the pressure foot tension at all. It is marking the leather somewhat but I figured Id worry about that later. I will increase it and see if that fixes it.

The Table is a temp, its not where the machine will normally be. It just has not arrived yet. One of the reason it wiggles that much is its really hard to finish the cycle on the arm. its not even the same all the time on the same line of stitches. The stitches look good top and bottom its just the grinding sound and the hard push at the end of the cycle that bother me. It doesn't sound like the machine on the video sounds. If the sound was not evident than it was a bad recording. It's there.

Thanks for looking at the video and your suggestions

Michael

[oldtimer]

What causes most problems with the Boss are short strokes. The handle must be pulled to end stops, top and bottom.

Also, I have had three Boss machines and they need to be lubricated as they are almost dry from the factory.

/ Knut

Edited December 26, 2011 by oldtimer

[Dwight]

Michael, . . .

Here are the numbers you need: TOLL FREE: 866-286-8046 PHONE: 260-441-9603

When you get Tippmann on the line, . . . ask for Ben.

Take your time, . . . let him walk you through it, . . .

He has helped me out in the past, . . . and is really good.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited December 26, 2011 by Dwight

[Denster]

Denster,

Yes it was threaded wrong. I know it goes in front but messed up that time. That didnt change the issue. Yours hangs up just about the end of the cycle and needs to be pushed harder to complete the cycle? The thread and bobbin tension seem to be right as I set the bobbin to one lb and the thread sits in the middle of the hole. no showing on the top or bottom like the manual shows when it needs to be adjusted.

I have not touched the pressure foot tension at all. It is marking the leather somewhat but I figured Id worry about that later. I will increase it and see if that fixes it.

The Table is a temp, its not where the machine will normally be. It just has not arrived yet. One of the reason it wiggles that much is its really hard to finish the cycle on the arm. its not even the same all the time on the same line of stitches. The stitches look good top and bottom its just the grinding sound and the hard push at the end of the cycle that bother me. It doesn't sound like the machine on the video sounds. If the sound was not evident than it was a bad recording. It's there.

Thanks for looking at the video and your suggestions

Michael

It doesn't what I would call hang up it just requires some extra pressure right at the top of the stroke as that is when the cam on the needle shaft pushes the thread takeup lever into final popsition and pulls the loops of thread into the leather. If you don't feel this when dry cycleing the machine but do when sewing then that is what it is.

[Eaglestroker]

Michael,

Just watched the video, everything I noticed has been pointed out by Denster. Sorry for your Christmas heartache!

Edited December 27, 2011 by Eaglestroker

[mlapaglia]

It doesn't what I would call hang up it just requires some extra pressure right at the top of the stroke as that is when the cam on the needle shaft pushes the thread takeup lever into final popsition and pulls the loops of thread into the leather. If you don't feel this when dry cycleing the machine but do when sewing then that is what it is.

Would it vary? it goes for a few stitches when I start with just a click and a small increase in pressure. Then for 5-9 stitches its really hard to push and has this grinding sound.

For what its worth its worse when I use the 4 oz thread spool that came with it. When I use my pound spool it does it but not as bad. They both say they are the same thread and I have the bobbin loaded with the thread from the pound spool.

The small pressure increase at the end of the cycle and the sound make sense. Its the large increase that happens sometimes and the grinding that I am concerned about.

Thanks for putting up with me. Id love for it to be me over reacting but My wife and son agree that its a prettty nasty sound when it grinds. The video does not do it justice.

Should I expect it to sound approximately the same on each cycle and have roughly the same pressure on each cycle During a straight stitch on 8 oz leather?

Thanks

Michael.

Edited December 27, 2011 by mlapaglia

[TwinOaks]

It should sound pretty much the same.

Have you tried sewing with it without thread? Just using the needle to punch holes...that would let you diagnose if it was specifically related to the thread or if it was another issue.

And yes, a lack of thread will make a difference. That last little push, right at the end of the 'up' stroke is what pulls the thread up into the leather. If your machine is pulling thread directly from the spool, it's fighting the bobbin tension, the tension of the thread on the spool, and both tensioners. If you pull that little loop between the double hole thread guide and the secondary tensioner, then you'll eliminate everything but the primary and secondary tensioners.

And there's something tickling my memory....I think it was a post by Particle. There's a screw that holds the thread take up arm in place that was causing him problems.....Denster, Dwight? I'm pretty sure it was one of you that identified and sorted out that issue.

And, you ARE holding the thread snugly behind the machine for several stitches, right? You've got to provide the tension for the first couple of stitches. If you aren't, then that would explain the several 'easy' stitches...the machine is pulling the tag end back through everything, and when there's enough lock stitches to actually hold the thread in place is when you start feeling the difference in the stitch.

[particle]

Listen to my machine at 5:44 and 7:50 of this video:

One thing I notice as I watch my video - I was sewing painfully slow! You notice too many aspects of the machine's operation when you cycle it that slow in my opinion. Plus, sometimes going that slow actually causes my machine to skip a stitch.

I think your machine sounds fine personally... Part of what you may be feeling is the top thread being pulled over the top of the bobbin shuttle - the thread snags on the bobbin thread, then releases and slides over the top to form the lock stitch. Well, I'm no sewing machine expert, but that's my uneducated explanation of it. Also, your flimsy table is absorbing some of the mechanical force when you cycle the machine. As you push and pull, your table is flexing/moving, actually making you work harder. Is your thread breaking? Is it fraying? You said your top/bottom tension looks fine, so I'm guessing not. My suggestion is to relax, find something more sturdy to mount it to, then speed up your cycle rate and do a few projects with it. If you're still having problems with it, contact someone after Tippmann opens up again after the first of the year or post a message on their forum (if you haven't already), but don't harass the tech guys by calling their personal cell phones should you happen to find their numbers - let them enjoy their vacations...

[Denster]

Would it vary? it goes for a few stitches when I start with just a click and a small increase in pressure. Then for 5-9 stitches its really hard to push and has this grinding sound.

For what its worth its worse when I use the 4 oz thread spool that came with it. When I use my pound spool it does it but not as bad. They both say they are the same thread and I have the bobbin loaded with the thread from the pound spool.

The small pressure increase at the end of the cycle and the sound make sense. Its the large increase that happens sometimes and the grinding that I am concerned about.

Thanks for putting up with me. Id love for it to be me over reacting but My wife and son agree that its a prettty nasty sound when it grinds. The video does not do it justice.

Should I expect it to sound approximately the same on each cycle and have roughly the same pressure on each cycle During a straight stitch on 8 oz leather?

Thanks

Michael.

The 4OZ spools have a tendency to add considerable resistance to releasing the thread and a lot depends on how they were laid up. I've got some off colors that I only have on 4OZ and I do what twinoaks recommended. It will really mess your stitching up if a loop sticks on the spool and you don't catch it. It happens occasionaly with the one pound spools but I can generally feel it and correct it before it's a problem but then I've been sewing with my two for a long while. Also twinoaks and particle made some good points in their posts.

[mlapaglia]

Listen to my machine at 5:44 and 7:50 of this video:

One thing I notice as I watch my video - I was sewing painfully slow! You notice too many aspects of the machine's operation when you cycle it that slow in my opinion. Plus, sometimes going that slow actually causes my machine to skip a stitch.

I think your machine sounds fine personally... Part of what you may be feeling is the top thread being pulled over the top of the bobbin shuttle - the thread snags on the bobbin thread, then releases and slides over the top to form the lock stitch. Well, I'm no sewing machine expert, but that's my uneducated explanation of it. Also, your flimsy table is absorbing some of the mechanical force when you cycle the machine. As you push and pull, your table is flexing/moving, actually making you work harder. Is your thread breaking? Is it fraying? You said your top/bottom tension looks fine, so I'm guessing not. My suggestion is to relax, find something more sturdy to mount it to, then speed up your cycle rate and do a few projects with it. If you're still having problems with it, contact someone after Tippmann opens up again after the first of the year or post a message on their forum (if you haven't already), but don't harass the tech guys by calling their personal cell phones should you happen to find their numbers - let them enjoy their vacations...

:wacko:The cell phone request was for an on call person. I really did not make that point clear in my post. I totally understand home time vs work time and always tried to keep them separate in my life too.

I found a small burr on the shuttle that was catching the thread as it crossed over. I got some green polishing compound and worked on it for a while and now the whole thing actually works. I will admit to getting hypersensitive to the sound and feel of the machine. I was just frustrated. I took a deep breath, and a break and then found the shuttle issue. Its all fixed now.

I thank you and Denster and TwinOaks and leather legion and 50 years leather and anyone else I forgot to mention for all the great help. Now I can relax and just play with my new toy.

Thanks again

Michael.