Leather Burnishers On Ebay

[Spinner]

I am so outraged by this that I am making a post. Should the Admins feel the need to delete it, so be it but I need to get this off my chest.

Silvia brought to my attention today some burnishers that are being sold on ebay that look almost exactly like mine. I say almost as it appears from their pictures that the party in question couldn't quite get the tips turned correctly.

Any of my clients that own a "Holster Maker's Special" will recognize the difference and inferior work from the pictures.

Now, normally I don't mind competition and in fact will often invite someone to give my other hobby, woodturning a spin.

I have even given folks that can turn tips on making themselves a burnisher. NEVER have I said, "hey, purchase one of my burnishers that I spent a good deal of time and research developing and then turn identical ones to sell on ebay as your own design..." Not once.

It happened though. On August 4th, 2011 Mr. Richard Loy of Herriman, Utah spoke to me on the phone and purchased one of my HMS Burnishers, a few weeks later he purchased a dremel burnisher as well. I recall speaking to him with tips on burnishing, etc and have receipts showing the purchases.

On December 24, 2011 Mr. Loy, aka highcountryoutfitter on ebay began selling replicas of my specific burnishers. He made no attempt to alter the design or to contact me regarding selling them or to give me credit for the design.

In other words, he is a THIEF and a LIAR and I feel that folks should know what kind of person they could potentially be dealing with.

Here is a link to one of the ebay listings in question: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leather-burnisher-leather-tool-cocobolo-11-/290656674647?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ac7ce357

Thank you Sylvia for bringing this to my attention.

Chris

[Sylvia]

I am so outraged by this that I am making a post. Should the Admins feel the need to delete it, so be it but I need to get this off my chest.

On December 24, 2011 Mr. Loy, aka highcountryoutfitter on ebay began selling replicas of my specific burnishers. He made no attempt to alter the design or to contact me regarding selling them or to give me credit for the design.

In other words, he is a THIEF and a LIAR and I feel that folks should know what kind of person they could potentially be dealing with.

Here is a link to one of the ebay listings in question: http://www.ebay.com/...=item43ac7ce357

Thank you Sylvia for bringing this to my attention.

Chris

You are welcome. I certainly won't get one from him since he clearly has no ethics.

[LNLeather]

Wow Chris, I think I'd be pretty p----d off if it were me,

Especially since you were so good as to give him instructions

on how to make it. What he has done is just plain wrong....

In so many ways!

Too bad there isn't a way to let every one here at Leatherworker.net

know about this guy.

Hey, how about you put yours up on ebay, for less.....

and make it clear that the design is all yours!

YOu can be sure if I need another burnisher I will get it from you!

[robertmeco]

Wow Chris, I think I'd be pretty p----d off if it were me,

Especially since you were so good as to give him instructions

on how to make it. What he has done is just plain wrong....

In so many ways!

Too bad there isn't a way to let every one here at Leatherworker.net

know about this guy.

Hey, how about you put yours up on ebay, for less.....

and make it clear that the design is all yours!

YOu can be sure if I need another burnisher I will get it from you!

+1

[Ferg]

Chris,

You have learned the hard way that you give no one information about manufacturing a specific product.

A number of years ago four or five of the companies we were dealing with asked if they could visit our shop to be more informed of how and what we made.

Being naive about their actual purpose we said yes. Each of those companies essentially stole our ideas and the manufacturing processes.

The satisfaction came a couple years later when at least one of them went "belly up" because they couldn't make any money doing what we did.

Sad state of affairs, industrial espionage continues in the USA not just across the pond.

ferg

I am so outraged by this that I am making a post. Should the Admins feel the need to delete it, so be it but I need to get this off my chest.

Silvia brought to my attention today some burnishers that are being sold on ebay that look almost exactly like mine. I say almost as it appears from their pictures that the party in question couldn't quite get the tips turned correctly.

Any of my clients that own a "Holster Maker's Special" will recognize the difference and inferior work from the pictures.

Now, normally I don't mind competition and in fact will often invite someone to give my other hobby, woodturning a spin.

I have even given folks that can turn tips on making themselves a burnisher. NEVER have I said, "hey, purchase one of my burnishers that I spent a good deal of time and research developing and then turn identical ones to sell on ebay as your own design..." Not once.

It happened though. On August 4th, 2011 Mr. Richard Loy of Herriman, Utah spoke to me on the phone and purchased one of my HMS Burnishers, a few weeks later he purchased a dremel burnisher as well. I recall speaking to him with tips on burnishing, etc and have receipts showing the purchases.

On December 24, 2011 Mr. Loy, aka highcountryoutfitter on ebay began selling replicas of my specific burnishers. He made no attempt to alter the design or to contact me regarding selling them or to give me credit for the design.

In other words, he is a THIEF and a LIAR and I feel that folks should know what kind of person they could potentially be dealing with.

Here is a link to one of the ebay listings in question: http://www.ebay.com/...=item43ac7ce357

Thank you Sylvia for bringing this to my attention.

Chris

[Eaglestroker]

Chris,

No where near as nice as the one I bought from you. I'd buy another if you still made them.

-Robert

[Phatdaddy]

That sucks for sure. "Karma is a bitch" comes to mind, and I try to find comfort in that.

I'd definitely drop him a line just so he knows his actions haven't gone undiscovered. (if you haven't) Maybe go as far as to send him the link to this thread.

You still have my support, should I ever need anything.

Kevin

[Spinner]

Wow Chris, I think I'd be pretty p----d off if it were me,

Especially since you were so good as to give him instructions

on how to make it. What he has done is just plain wrong....

In so many ways!

Chris,

You have learned the hard way that you give no one information about manufacturing a specific product.

That's the kicker here...if I had given this individual information on making his own, it would be my bad and I wouldn't have a whole lot of room to complain. However, I talked to Mr. Loy about how to use the ones he purchased, not about how to make one. He obviously used the ones he purchased as patterns for his. And then to top it off, he's charging more for them and then padding the shipping charges to boot.

And yeah Cheryl, I'm pretty pissed off. The other burnisher he purchased & then stole the design for was a special request dremel burnisher and not something in my normal line up.

Chris,

No where near as nice as the one I bought from you. I'd buy another if you still made them.

-Robert

Hey Robert, I'm still making them just a little backlogged right now. Should be taking orders for the next batch early next week.

[Eaglestroker]

Chris, if it's not to much of a hassle PM me when your ready or send me an invoice on paypal, we've done business before.

Regarding your little business endeavor, unfortunately there is absolutely nothing stopping him from doing it. It's not morally right but not everyone abides by the same codes of conduct. All you can really hope for is that you've built up enough of a fan base that time will weed his poor quality and inability to innovate out of the pack. My parents own a successful small business and I've watched them deal with these sorts of things on and off for 20 years.

[cleveland]

It's one thing to use parts of a design or improve a design, it's a whole other thing to copy the exact design without asking.

You could always buy one from him and then post negative feedback. Maybe we could buy one every couple months and post negative feedback?

On a related note, I'd like another one from you. Is you production back up and running?

[Spinner]

Thanks for the support Kevin!

Chris, if it's not to much of a hassle PM me when your ready or send me an invoice on paypal, we've done business before.

Regarding your little business endeavor, unfortunately there is absolutely nothing stopping him from doing it. It's not morally right but not everyone abides by the same codes of conduct. All you can really hope for is that you've built up enough of a fan base that time will weed his poor quality and inability to innovate out of the pack. My parents own a successful small business and I've watched them deal with these sorts of things on and off for 20 years.

Hey Robert, will do..next batch ordering starts next week. As for the nothing stopping him part, these burnishers fall into a neat little area of Industrial Design Intellectual Property copyright law as they are in essence a woodturning sculpture. While the manufacturing process and tangible item are not protected without a patent, the asthetic design (number & placement of the coves, the step design of the tip, etc.) are protected and Ebay recognizes Copyright Infringement of Items as well as text. I'm submitting a claim this morning to have the items removed and the person in question blacklisted from ever selling them there in the future.

It's one thing to use parts of a design or improve a design, it's a whole other thing to copy the exact design without asking.

You could always buy one from him and then post negative feedback. Maybe we could buy one every couple months and post negative feedback?

On a related note, I'd like another one from you. Is you production back up and running?

Hey Cleveland, I'm hoping to hit him harder than that...Ebay IP claim submitted this morning. As for production, the main part never really stopped I simply had to place a hold on new orders while I catch up. I did have some issues making the large custom burnisher sleeves for a bit due to a drill press issue but that has been resolved. Drop me an email or PM, ordering for the next batch opens up next week.

[WinterBear]

I've got to mention, I think the same guy is selling on etsy too.

[Eaglestroker]

Chris, glad you have discovered a course of recourse and are actively pursuing it rather than being forced to sit back and take it. Let us all know how it goes!

[K-Man]

Welcome to the real world. I can tell you it happens all the time in the holster industry. Oftentimes, even if you point it out, it falls on deaf ears. As long as someone is willing to make the copy and someone is willing to buy it, the market will continue. Intellectual property issues/violations seem to be rampant. I've seen examples of the violations everywhere.

[Spinner]

I've got to mention, I think the same guy is selling on etsy too.

Actually Bear, I just checked and the ones on Etsy are made by Gary Lyons. He's a good guy and we've had a few conversations about burnisher styles & construction. He does make them for dremels as well but he and I came upon similar designs (but turned slightly differently) independently. One main difference is he makes stands for the sets which I prefer not to get into. He also makes drill burnishers but our designs are completely different. He doesn't have his own website but you can find his stuff of Etsy, Facebook and his ads in the Leatherworker's Journal.

Actually now that I think about it, the message above portrays how good, honest folks do business. Gary and I both turned burnishers unknown to the other for awhile. He started with drill burnishers and I started with dremel burnishers. As demand and requests materialized, we each developed our own style of the other type as a product. When we discovered the other's work via Facebook, we had a few friendly discussions about how we got started and where we were taking it. Even though we didn't talk about it, interestingly enough we've managed to stay out of the other's 'backyard' as well. Might not have been intentional but it's worked out that way. I've no complaints against Gary and wish him the best of luck.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Spinner

[Spinner]

Welcome to the real world. I can tell you it happens all the time in the holster industry. Oftentimes, even if you point it out, it falls on deaf ears. As long as someone is willing to make the copy and someone is willing to buy it, the market will continue. Intellectual property issues/violations seem to be rampant. I've seen examples of the violations everywhere.

Yep, it's a sad state of affairs and I knew it would happen eventually. I won't be able to stop it completely as you mention, the market for knock-offs is age old and rampant but at least I can say my piece and draw attention to his true colors for those that may have considered dealing with him.

[WinterBear]

Actually Bear, I just checked and the ones on Etsy are made by Gary Lyons. He's a good guy and we've had a few conversations about burnisher styles & construction. He does make them for dremels as well but he and I came upon similar designs (but turned slightly differently) independently. One main difference is he makes stands for the sets which I prefer not to get into. He also makes drill burnishers but our designs are completely different. He doesn't have his own website but you can find his stuff of Etsy, Facebook and his ads in the Leatherworker's Journal.

Actually now that I think about it, the message above portrays how good, honest folks do business. Gary and I both turned burnishers unknown to the other for awhile. He started with drill burnishers and I started with dremel burnishers. As demand and requests materialized, we each developed our own style of the other type as a product. When we discovered the other's work via Facebook, we had a few friendly discussions about how we got started and where we were taking it. Even though we didn't talk about it, interestingly enough we've managed to stay out of the other's 'backyard' as well. Might not have been intentional but it's worked out that way. I've no complaints against Gary and wish him the best of luck.

Happy to hear that then, I thought it might potentially be the same person, so even happier to hear that it is not. And after reading your post, I agree, you and Gary are how honest folks due business--similar products developed on your own, but approached from different angles, and you each have your own styles and have developed your own clientele independently of each other and each other's products.

By the way, I meant to ask you about the burnishers I got from you. Do I need to condition the wood ever? It's dry here, really dry. Or will they pick up enough oils from the leather to not need it?

[Spinner]

By the way, I meant to ask you about the burnishers I got from you. Do I need to condition the wood ever? It's dry here, really dry. Or will they pick up enough oils from the leather to not need it?

Nope, no need to condition the wood. As you suspected, the friction, oils & waxes from burnishing the leather will keep them pretty well sealed.

If you're concerned due what sounds like you might live in a dry environment you can always rub on a little bit of beeswax and then burnish it into the wood with a paper towel.

:spoton:There's nothing wrong with burnishing your burnisher between burnishing sessions if you want to.

[cem]

That sucks Spinner, I know the hard work you have put into your burnishers and I've been very happy with my custom dremel one. It seems Duane Ballard is having some of this trouble as well as he mentioned it on his blog recently. If you have no joy with Ebay get an attorney to send a cease and desist letter.

[reddevil76]

That sucks and I hope Ebay stops this guy.

On a lighter note, if all else doesn't work, I have a traditional chinese taoist remedy. You search for this guy's picture, attach it to a paper stick man cut out, and slap on it with your bathroom slippers while "wishing all the best" for him!

[Kimmee]

Chris, I got a set of your burnishers about a year ago and use them all the time and LOVE them. I hope you get this sorted out to your satisfaction and sooner than later.

If you need any help, looks like you have quite a few folks on here and on Facebook that are willing to step up to the plate for you.

Best of luck and please keep us posted as to the progress.

~ Kim

[gunter]

I find it ashaùe that soùmeone steals an idea from someone else with althering anything or even making a personal change, no ethic to and for the craft at all.

What do you charge for a burnisher anyway? I'll need one in the future.

Gunter

PS u got my support.

[Art]

Hi Chris,

I don't think you can complain about this. The product at the link you provided is such a poor attempt to copy your "holster makers special" that it bears not much resemblance to yours. It appears to me that he doesn't really understand the use of the product and obviously doesn't possess the capabilities required for small turnings. While I could at best call it an interpretation of your design, execution fell way short.

Art

I am so outraged by this that I am making a post. Should the Admins feel the need to delete it, so be it but I need to get this off my chest.

Silvia brought to my attention today some burnishers that are being sold on ebay that look almost exactly like mine. I say almost as it appears from their pictures that the party in question couldn't quite get the tips turned correctly.

Any of my clients that own a "Holster Maker's Special" will recognize the difference and inferior work from the pictures.

Now, normally I don't mind competition and in fact will often invite someone to give my other hobby, woodturning a spin.

I have even given folks that can turn tips on making themselves a burnisher. NEVER have I said, "hey, purchase one of my burnishers that I spent a good deal of time and research developing and then turn identical ones to sell on ebay as your own design..." Not once.

It happened though. On August 4th, 2011 Mr. Richard Loy of Herriman, Utah spoke to me on the phone and purchased one of my HMS Burnishers, a few weeks later he purchased a dremel burnisher as well. I recall speaking to him with tips on burnishing, etc and have receipts showing the purchases.

On December 24, 2011 Mr. Loy, aka highcountryoutfitter on ebay began selling replicas of my specific burnishers. He made no attempt to alter the design or to contact me regarding selling them or to give me credit for the design.

In other words, he is a THIEF and a LIAR and I feel that folks should know what kind of person they could potentially be dealing with.

Here is a link to one of the ebay listings in question: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leather-burnisher-leather-tool-cocobolo-11-/290656674647?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ac7ce357

Thank you Sylvia for bringing this to my attention.

Chris

[Suicide]

Chris,

My 2 cents: You should be proud of yourself as your tools appeared to be so great so somebody other start to produce copycats. Nobody will try to repro crap.

And more your original tools will go up, more highjackers will try to build theirs copycat.

One day you'll discover full of aliexpress.com is full of chinese replicas of yours stuff and then you understand it is kinda tribute to that great job and tons of efforts you put into your stuff.

So take it easy and look from the positive point of view.

As long as somebody wants doing something like you did - you are the best.

Cheers!

[King's X]

Apparently, he has now taken on Gary's burnishers as well. I wonder if he purchased a set from Gary before as well.