Hope I Get More Response This Time Around

[pete]

I have been tooling for many years and have always used patterns from books,pasting pictures together, etc. I have Pete Gorrell's book as well as design artistry (Baird) and 4-5 Chan Geer books. I am SO *(#)(*&$ frustrated that I can't draw a design that I like. They come out too stemmy, to much background, or usually so crowded that the stem and leaves are bigger than the flowers.

IS THERE A RULE OF THUMB or at least a consensus on belt patterns!?!?!

l know to start at the tip (duh!)

but when drawing, do you place your flowers and leaves and fill in the blanks? and if so, do you draw the stems up from the bottom or down from the top? I know it sounds stupid but I get the top flower done and before I'm at the next flower or leaf I've got a jungle going and have used up all my ideas!

I hope that Clay, Bobby,Randy, and others will chime in- I'm getting tired of the same old patterns (as great as they are) and have a new order for dozens of belts. I would happily use just the Chan Geer belt patterns for all of them but I really want to learn to create my own.

thanks to all

respectfully,

pete

[gringobill]

Hi Pete, I saw your first post and just laid low because I haven't been real happy with belt patterns I've drawn either. But here are some thoughts I have about belt patterns in general.

Belt patterns are repetitive, so you figure out how long you want the segment/pattern to be and draw it once then make a tap off. The segments seem like they are usually between 6 and 12 inches long and repeat along the full length of a belt.

Not only are they typically in segments but sometimes a segment can be divided with a leaf and a flower alternating, so there is a flower at the leading end, typically on the right side as you look at the pattern with a leaf in the middle, with stems in between.

Some belt patterns have only flowers and stems and no leaves.

Most belt patterns are created along a sine curve or "s" curve, the curve can be flatter or more curved (compressed,)depending on what pleases our eye or what works for our design.

Sometimes the stems for the flowers and the leaves go in opposite directions in the same segment and intertwine as they go.

I would start by laying out your pattern geometrically, if that makes any sense. Draw a top and bottom border depending on what width of belt you are drawing that pattern for. Figure out what kind of flower you are going to use and place it at one end of the pattern. I use graph paper or grid paper for drawing all my patterns. It just makes life a lot easier and faster when you have the grids on paper to work with.

Essentially all decorative designs be it leather carving, wood carving, or engraving, are based around sine curves (S curvesor French curves,) and scrolls. People may not actually draw the sine curves or scrolls first but if they don't they envision them in their mind. I see that you are interested in Sheridan carving/designs. I'm sure if you draw your own Sheridan patterns you start out by filling the space you are working on with circles then connecting them. What you end up with is a series of "S" curves and scrolls. A belt pattern contains these same elements but you are filling a longer narrower space so the scrolls are more subdued and flatter.

So you start out with a long gradual S curve that repeats itself as it runs the length of the belt. The S curve starts on the bottom or top of the left end of the segment and gradually flows along the pattern to the right making a long gradual "S" until it ends at the opposite or right side of the your segment, envision a long flowing "S" laying down. This is the basis for your pattern. It might be helpful at first to very lightly draw the S curve in between your top and bottom border. You want it to begin on the top or bottom and one end and finish at the opposite end. This long S curve is the general framework for your belt pattern.

One flower or leaf is at the end on the right side and either another flower or leaf is in the middle. When your get the pattern completed and it moves along the belt the stems on one end should flow out of a flower or leaf. The S curve design should flow smoothly the full length of the belt.

Once you get your flower and leaf in place in the middle and one end of the pattern then you will fill in the stems and what other decorative features you can dream up along the S curve. The leaves coming off your stem should be pretty close to the same width just as in other Sheridan style or western floral designs to achieve balance.

Flow is a very important element in any design and I doubt that I can even explain what it is, but you can probably, "know it when you see it!" The stems should have a nice gradual taper as they go from the base of a flower or leaf back toward and meets the next flower or leaf That taper and thinning of the lines is what sets a really good design apart.

I believe drawing a belt pattern is no different than drawing any othe type of floral pattern. It takes practice and you probably need to start out with more simple designs and ideas and then start refining them and making them more elaborate.

One of the challenges is fitting flowers and leaves within the borders and having them look good. A lot patterns have a oval shaped flower and parts of it disappear under the border. Part of some petals can't be seen but your imagination can envision how they look. If done right this can look good. This is one of the more difficult parts of drawing belt patterns for me. To draw a flower that fits and looks right within the borders. I don't see a lot of belt patterns where the entire flower is visible, it seems to me that a pattern like that gets pretty small it's hard to make it look good. There are exceptions but you have to play with your flower to get it to look right.

In the situation I mentioned earlier where the leaves and flowers are flowing in opposite directions there would be two S curves that are creating a series of flat flowing figure eights along the pattern. That is a more complicated and difficult pattern to draw and probably something to try after you get the hang of more simple designs.

You mentioned having problems having too much background area. Drawing a belt pattern is the same idea as drawing a Sheridan pattern on a bigger space it's just a trickier because you are trying to fill up and long narrow space rather than a larger square, rectangle of circle. I just have to play with a design using trial and error as I draw in the stems between flowers and leaves.

I don't know if all of this make sense to you, and I hope I am not insulting you with these basic design concepts. Maybe some of this might give you some ideas or possibly someone else of this board that is just starting out. What I need to do is take some pix of some tap off designs and post them then if I can figure out how to do it, put some arrows on them to show what I'm talking about. I think if a person looks at some belt patterns that you like this will make more sense.

Anyway maybe some of this helps, I hope so.

Take care and good luck!

Bill

[pete]

Bill, Thank you SO much for taking the time to respond. I know that your explanation will be of help to many more that just me.

Please feel free to post your tap-offs!!! I have all of Chan Geer belt designs , but I love looking at as many styles as I can.

Again, great critique - thank you.

respectfully

pete

[TwinOaks]

Bill, I usually stay away from floral patterns because I've never understood how to get the 'flow' right. Thank you so much for the design explanation!!! This thread is getting pinned because I don't think I've seen it explained so well before.

[gringobill]

Bill, I usually stay away from floral patterns because I've never understood how to get the 'flow' right. Thank you so much for the design explanation!!! This thread is getting pinned because I don't think I've seen it explained so well before.

Thank you sir, I appreciate your kindness. Glad you found it helpful, hopefully others who are starting out will as well. I would like to be able to include some photos and highight the things I attempted to describe. I am a visual person and it's helpful to me to be able to see what someone is trying to explain. Maybe I can edit my comments and add some photos.

Thanks again,

Bill

[dilligent neophyte]

I do like the Sheridan patterns but am no where near the "create-your-own"

as a beginner I like the easy way to get a pattern. if I find a pattern that is belt sized I trace it onto a notebook paper. I then re-line it with a ultra-fine sharpie. When done the pattern can be seen thru on the back side of the paper.

I then trace the back side with the sharp-sharpie and cover both sides with thin packing tape (I now use tracing mylar and save myself the tracing twice thing---but I'm slow) . anyway, use it as the mirror to the front Add a flower (or whatever) in between and repeat the left/right pattern with a break --

uuhhhhl --- takes som fiddlin to make them blend but that's where a creative spark helps --- or just wing it.. .

Keep Poundin'

dn

[shtoink]

I would like to be able to include some photos and highight the things I attempted to describe. I am a visual person and it's helpful to me to be able to see what someone is trying to explain. Maybe I can edit my comments and add some photos.

I, very much, look forward to see this happen. I will continue to wait with anticipation...

[immiketoo]

Seconded...

[David8386]

Thanks Bill, explanation made sense, appreciate your time.

David

[Mike Craw]

Guys,

If you are intending to do much Sheridan style work and are looking for a step-by-step guidance on the sizing of your pattern, determining the flow, and using fill-ins.then you can't do any better than a book by Bob Park, a member on this forum. Bob has written tutorials for us on casing and edging that are pinned on this site. His book is called "Creating Western Floral Designs."

Bob can be reached by sending him a PM from the forum, by email at hiidepounder@cox.net, or by calling him at (602) 999-3099. I have struggled for years with pattern drawing, and this book cleared up every question I ever thought of about it.

I should mention that I am not affiliated in any way with Bob except for having corresponded with him on this forum. I'm just a completely satisfied customer.

Hope you take the time to get this book, and that it helps you as much as it has me.

Mike