brutally honest criticism sub forum?

[Admin]

Yep, Charley- good post. Kick it up a notch. I've never worried about anyone leading anyone astray on LW because there are plenty of peers to keep things honest. I'd be glad to put together a list of qualified people who will agree to critique work if it will help. LW has a lot of experts in many fields, and most of them are generous with their time and expertise. It's refreshing to hear that there are some people who really want to reach their full potential, and it's fantastic that we have the people who can help them to do it. I was never crazy about mediocre either...that's why LW was born.

Johanna

[cwa11is]

Whoa!! Okay, okay..The "you suck" was a bad generalization of several types of comments made in a college typography class that I took in the 80's before computers, when professional graphic design was created by hand with a pencil and eraser shields. A bunch of us were 23 and thought we were the creme of the crop and this instructor would say things like "The top curve of that S looks like the Hunchback of Notre Dame when he's drunk" First of all, it put us all in the mindset that we were not masters and made us work really hard to achieve a higher level of perfection. Secondly this a class of people that were trying to become professionals and needed to know that they either had potential to succeed or whether they needed to go back a few steps and learn some basics. Thirdly, it was extremely entertaining if you had thick enough skin to deal with it. Skill level for those going into that class jumped tremendously by the time we came out. That is why I suggested a separate subforum for such things. "That Sucks" was a bad generalization because there was never any personal insults, but it felt that way hearing negative criticism of something you thought was good enough.

[Crystal]

I am always looking for the "advice" or "critique" or "should've done this" in all the posts on the board. I have seen some work that I thought was really nice then a few replies later and a comment is made on how to improve or change something - I go back, look at the pic and sure enough I have an "ah ha" moment and see what was wrong . I am just not experienced enough to know what is wrong or the better way to do something. I really want the critique. I want the help. I want to get really good at this.

I was always under the assumtion that if you wanted help to post in the "Critique My Work". I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to reply and comment and suggest and yes - the "atta boy" comments help keep the motivation flowing.

LW is a wonderful place - the range of skill and talent here is just amazing. This is the only exposure I have to this kind of work and I am treating it like my school. I have never been to a show, I am hours away from any kind of store, PA is kind of dry in the "workshop" area- I've never had any classes or seen leatherwork done in person, so this is the only place I can get any real help or knowledge. I rely on the comments to improve and I appreciate everyone who takes the time to help me and all the other members.

Crystal

[Pip]

I have to say, that I agree with all this in some degree or another. I have posted items in the critique section and expected criticism, if i don't want critisism then I post in the show off section (although I still expect some criticism). I think if someone says you could do this better then I listen, If they say you suck then I figure they don't like it. No biggy.

I have been fortunate to grow up in an area where criticism is freely given, and our sense of humour revolves around taking the mickey out of each other. So I am not overly sensitive, but helpful criticism is always welcome.

One thing I do find difficult, is to get my point across, without sounding like an Arse especially when I am tired. I often reword posts several times and end up deleting them before I post, or afterward (in one specific case) finding that they sound mean or unhelpful. I am new(ish) to leather but have been an artist, woodland crafter, bushcrafter for a long time. All the forums I have attended I have ended up putting my foot in it, at least once (or twice).

Ah ha moments are really important especiaslly when backed up with knowledge of someone who has done it before.

[ClayB]

Several posts to this topic were lost to the hacker. I had a few of the yet on my computer, so trying to fill in some of the blanks.

Been away from the computer a few days and just found this topic..... I too have been a bit frustrated with the lack of content in the critiques. Many times I have expected to see more in-depth comment only to find that comments have been made off public forum in PM's. This does not inspire others to post nor does it encourage us to continue to participate in the discussions. I have found that even the beginner has experiences and views that I can learn from. Sometimes have to look pretty hard, but everyone knows something that I do not. If you post your comments privately, I cannot learn from you and cannot participate.

If one only wants to do leatherwork as a hobby, the critique can be more generic, but when one is striving to be a professional and do the highest quality work, we owe it to them to help them find flaws and sugest other ways.

I suspect that we have become too politically correct, and afraid of offending. If we don't want real advice and criticism, we ought not to ask. Sometimes a more heated discussion makes us evaluate our position more thoroughly. What we think we KNOW, may not be absolute and may need to be questioned.

Keith

Very interesting topic and by the responses i'd say there are a good number of us a bit disappointed with some of the critiquing that has gone on. That said, I have often noticed that the photos provided for critiquing don't always give us an honest view of the work. An example of this as applies to saddlery would be a side view of a saddle that simply shows the saddle as a whole. If I am to critique such a photo, there is very little I can say... I cannot see if a cantle binding is straight and even with well done handstitching, I cannot tell if the edges have been finished nicely or the leather of the horn cap is even from left to right, I can't tell if the borders are even or the details of the stamping. About the only option it gives me is to tell someone they have nice, balanced lines to the saddle or perhaps they need to change proportions of a fender or skirt. The point is that if I want someone to honestly critique my work, I need to make an effort to post clear photos showing areas that are difficult for me so that people can offer suggestions that will be of real help. If I claim to want critiquing and fail to show the small details, perhaps all i'm asking for is a pat on the back and someone to say "nice work"!

Darc

Hi Kieth. I have seen your work, and I don't think there's a person on this forum who could find fault with your work. The only critique you'll ever get from me is 2 thumbs up. You do fantastic work, and I only dream of being half that good some day.

Hilly

Hi Hilly, Guess I'll have to post something anonomously and see what kind of response I would get. HAHAHA

Keith

I never thought this post would generate this much discussion, but I feel most of the replies are missing the point of my original intent. I suggested an entirely separate category for those who might want more serious input, not the general attitude of the forum as a whole. I also said that I would not want to discourage anyone from this craft. Hell, I'm a beginner at this medium myself! But I would also like to learn the more nitpicky details of what people observe as high-quality or lack thereof.

Chris

Most of the time, the saddles on this forum are in the gallery section, not the critique my work section. And most of the time they dont ask for a critique, so I'm not inclined to do so. If they dont ask or post in the critique section, how are we supposed to know they want one? I do agree that we all glean from constructive criticism and I find this an interesting topic.

TroyWest

Chris,

I think it is getting lost in the discussion, but we do have two separate areas that work can be posted to. One is the "Show Off" section on the Leather worker Board division and the other is the "Critique My Work" section of the same division. I think your original post and the whole discussion that followed has been excellent. It has shown that maybe the PC approach is not always desired, and that open gloves-off critique is wanted by quite a few. My thoughts are that if it is in the Show Off section, probably I'd be more inclined to go PC. If it is in the Critique My Work, I'd be a little more open. We already have these, just maybe haven't delineated the purpose ad differences of each as "staff" or as users. In my opinion Keith's post of not going to the PMs and offlists makes a lot of sense, and I plan to keep it on board.

Bruce

We all learn when we keep things on the board.

Here's an offer for the shy or the famous: if you want to post something anonymously for a real critique, send it to admin@leatherworker.net and I'll post it. Your identity will not be revealed unless you request it after you get your honest feedback.

Johanna

[ClayB]

Missed one from Kate.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly my thought. If you want a thorough analysis of the quality of your work by the others on the forum, post it in "Critique My Work!", and put on your kevlar vest. And those of you who respond, please refrain from posting the same kind of "oooh, ahhh" feedback that is typical the the "Show Off" area. Instead, be prepared to evaluate the piece thoroughly and provide useful feedback on what would make the piece better, and how it can be improved upon.

I will repeat that I do not think it is ever necessary tell someone their work is awful. If the person receiving the feedback doesn't have the motivation to take constructively offered ideas and opinions they receive and use it in the pursuit of perfection, someone else seeing the post will. Being insulted will motivate some people, but others have sufficient self-desire to perfect their work that they don't need that kind of treatment to persevere. Of course, if you are someone who really needs that kind of treatment, feel free to ask, I'm sure there are people here who would be happy to oblige. In that case, an exception to the principal is in order, but in my opinion, you should be prepared to ask for it, and not expect it every time you post a photo of your work.

Kate

[barra]

A technique we use to evaluate someones performance when de briefing is referred to as the bathtub method. picture the shape of a bathtub. the rim is up high, it dips down and ends up high again so in debriefing we.

1. Start on a high (positive aspects of the work.

2. Give the negative/constructive feedback.

3. End on a high with an overall not bad type comment.

Sometimes at work however I'd like to use the Parachute with no canopy method.

Woooooosh-splat.

Barra.

[BillB]

All,

I have found reading this thread rather fascinating. I finally went back to the very top of Leatherwork.Net to look at how each forum is described since that is what I had expected.

For Example:

Show Off! - What have you been up to lately? Show it here! If you want a critique, just ask! Our members willingly share their knowledge and experience.

Critique my Work! - If you past a pic here, you want people to tell you what you did right, what you could have done better, and what you need improvement on. All constructive replies welcome, and no hurt feelings.

If I post in Show Off and don't ask for a critique, then I am not expecting any and would probably take it the wrong way if offered, on the other hand if I wanted a critique, I will either ask for it in this forum or post it under Critique my Work!

So if I post in Critique my Work, I expect constructive criticism, both barrels. 8-)

I think the definitions for the forums are very good and if followed will help manage the what gets said where and what gets posted where.

Since this is also a family board I expect that the phrasing should be G rated maybe PG.

The fact that we are doing this on-line in a public forum brings me back to the management skills I have been taught. There are times and ways to say things in public and there are times when it needs to be said behind closed doors. This is easier done face-to-face and one can read body language, on the net I don't know how to do that unless Johanna can provide animated Avatars for all of us. 8-)

I don't think starting a separate forum would be any better since over time it will evolve as well, we just need to accept and follow the guidance that the forum definitions already provide.

Just my two cents worth.

Bill B.