Motors?

[ChimeraKennels]

I understand the clutch motors "run full speed" and that servo motors are "less sensitive and offer good low speed control" although the later some times has less power than an equal strength clutch motor when being used at low speed.

So, here is my question. On my "new to me" Pfaff, it came with a 1/3rd hp clutch motor...but I can run it slow without any problem. That motor is HEAVY despite it low hp rating...and even though it is "on" all the time when I hit the switch, it really is fairly quiet in my opinion. The manufacturer is "Every Ready" and the model is a "Master Clutch." I can run this clutch motor as slow as I want. From what I read clutch motors are typically hard to control, so I am curious, was this some unique model or did I just get lucky? Why are new clutch motors not like this?

I imagine it is the original motor. I am replacing the wiring for safety reasons to update it to a three prong with a ground, but didn't choose to purchase a new motor since this one seems able to meet my needs. If I have problems going through thick stuff than I may upgrade to a stronger motor...but my question is...would a 1/2 hp servo be any stronger than a 1/3 hp clutch?

I noticed that some of the clutch motors out there are made for "slow stitching" with a top RPM around 1750. Would such a motor with a small pulley not offer more penetrating power than a servo motor?

[ChimeraKennels]

Two more things, I am sure I will never run this machine over its max RPMs as I prefer good control, but I would like to know what is...

1. What is the max stitch RPM for this machine (Pfaff 145-H4-6/1C)

2. What is the max hp rating this machine can handle?

This information would be beneficial should I end up needing a new motor some day.

[Northmount]

would a 1/2 hp servo be any stronger than a 1/3 hp clutch?

The heavy spinning rotor in the clutch motor provides the inertia to get started (punch) through heavier leather without stalling. If it does what you want it to do now, and you can "feather" the clutch okay to run at low speeds as needed, I don't see a need to change. Some more practice and testing should prove for sure one way or the other.

I took a clutch motor off a flatbed Singer 20-33 because it tended to grab once in a while. Even with a smaller 2" pulley it was too fast for me. Since it is only used for light weight material like wallet liners, it doesn't need a lot of starting torque and the servo does a good job for me. Might have been fine for others with better muscle coordination!

CTG

[KAYAK45]

YOU GOT LUCKY! If the motor you have, behaves the way you want it to, why question why? Just use it,... for say..the next twenty years. Then get the new best thing,.... then.

Just a thought.

Kevin

[ChimeraKennels]

I am a rookie in terms of sewing. I am just getting started with a few crafts...so I was curious if I "just got lucky" or if the motors changed. Being the motor is 50 years old...I hope it continues to last as it appears to be able to meet all my needs..>BUT I HAVEN'T TRIED my heaviest stuff yet. Hopefully it will work well there too. I will find out soon. I am waiting on a new table top from Bob before reassembling everything after bringing it home.

Anyway, upon seeing some of the other conversations, I noticed that many stated they updated their old clutch motor with new servo motors.

I also noticed that when looking at various motors, one could get a "low rpm" clutch motor. It seems like that would be a low cost solution to many of the problems that some are having with some of the servo motors. If it isn't slow enough, a small pulley or gear reduction would slow it down even more...and add power to boot. Yes, it will be drawing power when it is on, but with the switch right there in the front, I don't see that being a big deal either.

Just sharing a few thoughts and questions among my observations.

[Wizcrafts]

Chimera;

You have a lot to learn about motors. Baby steps...

Clutch motors have been the standard of the needle trade for the best part of a century. They are made in various configurations, like 2 phase 110v, 3 phase 220v, 1725 RPM and 3450 RPM. Most garment machines used in factories are equipped with 3450 RPM motors. Most motors sold for personal use, or for use on walking foot machines are 1725 RPM. Walking foot machines usually have a 1/2 HP 1725 RPM motor as standard equipment. Pulleys are available in diameters from under 2" to 5" or bigger.

To add to the confusion, most of the older motors have a 3/4 inch bore, but some have a 5/8" shaft.

Servo motors are built in a variety of drive systems and with varying shaft diameters. I have some with a 1/2 or 9/16 inch bore and others with 5/8 inch.

You need to spend some time actually using you motor and machine before jumping to conclusions about the characteristics of this or that design. Furthermore, the motor/reducer systems used on the 441 clones are completely different than anything you are yet familiar with. You cannot accurately comment of these motors until you have actually used one or more for a period of time. Each one acts slightly differently from the others. Some have fabulous low end control, while others have a hair trigger between off and full on.

It sounds like you got really lucky with your machine and motor. If the clutch wears down you can buy a replacement brake or clutch, or replace the entire motor with either a new clutch, or new servo motor. Then, you'll have a learning curve with the rebuilt or replaced motor.

[Ferg]

I don't have a Cobra or 441 clone of any kind but I do have a Consew 206RB5 and a Seiko CW8B1. Consew is a Flatbed, Seiko a cylinder arm. Wiz is familiar with both machines.

The Consew came from a dealer in California. I requested a Servo Motor which works perfectly for me. I also have a speed reducer on this machine, couldn't do a darn thing with it if I didn't have the reducer. I can slow it down to one stitch at a time or let it run like a rabbit, it is 3/4 HP. This machine will sew 3/8" thickness with no problem.

The Seiko came from Bob at Toledo. One of Bob's Servo motors. Wiz told me to set the speed dial in the middle, that works perfect for me with one exception, when sewing 1/4" of leather I need to increase the speed dial some so I have enough torque. Part of the time I have to give the wheel a quick pull for it to sew and still be slow as I wish it to be. If there is any difference in these two Servos at all, the one on the Consew may be a little bit more powerful.

If I was doing leather work for a living I would certainly have one of the "Professional" Servos.

Just my .02.

BTW: I have communicated with Wiz frequently as well as talking with him personally while at Toledo. I have learned more than I could have imagined from Wiz and Bob. They have never hesitated to answer any of my multitude of questions with expert guidance. I am also sure that Steve, Ronnie, Greg and all of the remainder of dealers and professionals have the same mind set.

ferg

Chimera;

You have a lot to learn about motors. Baby steps...

Clutch motors have been the standard of the needle trade for the best part of a century. They are made in various configurations, like 2 phase 110v, 3 phase 220v, 1725 RPM and 3450 RPM. Most garment machines used in factories are equipped with 3450 RPM motors. Most motors sold for personal use, or for use on walking foot machines are 1725 RPM. Walking foot machines usually have a 1/2 HP 1725 RPM motor as standard equipment. Pulleys are available in diameters from under 2" to 5" or bigger.

To add to the confusion, most of the older motors have a 3/4 inch bore, but some have a 5/8" shaft.

Servo motors are built in a variety of drive systems and with varying shaft diameters. I have some with a 1/2 or 9/16 inch bore and others with 5/8 inch.

You need to spend some time actually using you motor and machine before jumping to conclusions about the characteristics of this or that design. Furthermore, the motor/reducer systems used on the 441 clones are completely different than anything you are yet familiar with. You cannot accurately comment of these motors until you have actually used one or more for a period of time. Each one acts slightly differently from the others. Some have fabulous low end control, while others have a hair trigger between off and full on.

It sounds like you got really lucky with your machine and motor. If the clutch wears down you can buy a replacement brake or clutch, or replace the entire motor with either a new clutch, or new servo motor. Then, you'll have a learning curve with the rebuilt or replaced motor.

[ChimeraKennels]

No doubt I am a rookie here. When I get everything back together after updating the set up, I hope everything works like it did when I tested it out. I will post some pictures and video if all goes well. If not, I will need to lube the brain here some more. LOL.:brainbleach:

Wiz, I will be the first to admit, I know nothing about these motors. Did I say something specifically wrong or inaccurate above? I realize they come in different phases and volts. I have a 220 circuit here for some of my wood working tools (80" belt sanders, table saws, dust collection, etc). I not only train guard dogs, but also make longbows.

I am doing what I can to learn...but the old saying "the proof is in the pudding" also comes to mind. Meaning, if it does everything I need, I will keep using this motor. If not, then I will holler back to find out what's next.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChimeraKennels

[Wizcrafts]

Nah, it's just that until you get foot-on experience with the various motors, you aren't in a good position to make suggestions to those who are having problems adapting to their motors.

From your first description of your new machine, you won't have any trouble feathering the clutch for slow speeds. If you find that your motor is a little weak when you sew the thickest load it can clear, move up to the next higher motor in horsepower, or install a smaller motor pulley, or install a speed reducer pulley system.

One advantage your clutch motor gives that many servo motors don't provide, is a physical brake that releases before the clutch engages. Releasing the brake allows you to freely hand-wheel the machine for precision sewing around strap tips, turnarounds, buckles and dee rings, etc.

There are some servo motors that have a brake, like the SewPro 500, which is now sold as the Toledo Sew Slow. Touching the pedal releases the brake, so one can freewheel the machine. It has a knob on the back that limits the top speed, as mentioned by Ferg, in his reply #7. There is another family of brake equipped servos that I recently discovered, but have not been able to test yet. They also have a single knob to limit the top speed, rather than the awkward up/down push buttons and their strange sequences to set startup and top speeds.

If you find that the motor tends to get away sometimes, put a tennis ball under the floor pedal. The squish-able ball provides resistance that can help you control the motor. It's an old trick I learned in an industrial sewing machine shop where I worked for a while. They used that trick with new sewers, especially if they bought high speed Jukis. When I say high speed, I ain't kiddin' Pilgrim. I'm talkin' 3000 stitches per minute, flat out. By comparison, leather sewers usually gear their machines down to a top speed of about 360 to 600 stitches per minute. The big 441 clones are geared down by as much a 9:1, meaning a 3500 RPM motor actually turns the machine at only 400 stitches per minute, or about 6.5 stitches per second, top speed. With no releasable brake, these machines are very hard to turn by hand for single stitching.

Stick with your clutch motor until it needs a clutch reline, or until it burns out. Then worry about a replacement. If you find you need more precise low speed control, contact our dealers to see what servos they have that will drop into the three holes in your table, and have the control lever on the bottom of the motor. My SewPro (aka: Sew Slow) is built that way.

Something else you may want to consider is that if you are sewing mostly nylon webbing collars and leads, you can go really fast without burning the material or thread. Leather heats up the needle markedly at high speeds. I often have smoke coming from the needle as I sew the edges on production strap runs.

Last tip: Get a swing-away, or drop down edge guide for your machine.

[bruce johnson]

Just a question here. I started off with a clutch motor on a 205-64. I upgraded it to a servo motor maybe 6 years ago. That servo had a screwdriver adjust that limited the top speed. I had a good range of pedal travel and control. When I bought the 2000 that servo was an option I took except it had a dial instead having to adjust it with a screwdriver. I got the 1245 with the same motor too. I really never thought it about it until Wiz brought up the brake release on the new servos. I have been doing that on this motor without ever thinking about it. It seems to release the same as the clutch motor used to. There is nothing digital on it, just a sinple rotary dial. Is this type of servo motor still available?

Another control tip that sure helped my was to stop using the pedal like the gas pedal in my truck. I am kind of a drive with the ball of my foot guy behind the wheel. A local sewing machine guy taught me to put my whole foot on the sewing machine pedal. "Toe to go and heel to slow" was his saying. When I just had the ball of my foot on it, there was a little lag from letting up until the spring pulled it up. Using my whole foot and pushing that that heel down really slows it faster and gives me more control. .

[ChimeraKennels]

Wiz,

My comments were not intended to be "suggestions" to others...but only an expression of some thoughts and questions. In doing some research about older machines, I noticed that many people that have obtained old machines updated their machines with servo motors. I believe you even updated your National 300 from a 1/3rd hp clutch motor to a higher rating servo motor (1/2 hp I believe but I don't recall for sure). I don't know why you did...but I recall that. I also recall seeing that if you were to compare a servo motor to a clutch motor of equal ratings, generally speaking the clutch motor offered more power while the servo motor offered more control. Now, is this always true??? I have no idea. I am hoping my 1/3rd hp clutch motor will power through everything I need (for now), but after all the machine and motor were made in 1965...and I suspect it is the original motor. So, I posted this not to make suggestions to others...but only to open a topic to converse on a matter and my thoughts and questions about motors in general.

Being I was able to control the speed well of this clutch motor, I can tell it isn't the high speed type. I have seen some of those in action. Very intimidating to use for someone like me. My comments above about the slow clutch motors that run 1725 rpm (half the speed of some) and being used with a small pulley doesn't require a sewing machine genius to realize that this means less speed (which is easier to control for someone like me). Is it enough to offer the control that I or someone else desires...I HAVE NO IDEA. Maybe my current clutch motor is a lucky fluke. That is where experience would come into play...but that is why I posted the topic. Who knows...maybe I will be lucky and won't need a motor at all.

Unfortunately, I see this topic is an apparently sensitive issue...and people are attacking one another when in my opinion that isn't beneficial to anyone. People should be able to discuss matters without it being a tape measuring contest IMO. If someone has a good idea...great. If not, explain why it is not. My belief is to let the topic stand for the merit of the post...and leave the tape measuring on the sewing desk. If I stepped on your toes or anyone else's...well, my apologies. I realize you know your machines...and I have frequently stated, I am a rookie at this sewing stuff.

That said, regardless of my experience, I notice that motor issues are something a lot of people have had issues with, so I expressed a thought only as a question...not a suggestion. The only suggestions I recall blatantly making really had nothing to do with the machine, but a lever and fulcrum...something I understand VERY well...and that was an elementary suggestion at that...which was to move the connecting rod of the servo motor closer to the fulcrum on a peddle so the foot throttle would move the "trigger" more gradually...thereby reducing its sensitivity...but again that suggestion has nothing to do with motors specifically...and was on another topic.

If I am wrong, so be it. If I'm not wrong...well...its just a thought from someone.

I am not interested in stepping on anyone toes, and I certainly have appreciated your help. I hope you are wiling to continue to offer your help in the future.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChimeraKennels

[Wizcrafts]

Chimera;

The short effective range of travel on the current generation of servo motors is a manufacturing problem. We can try to trick out the control levers, but that is just masking the real problem: poor light beam controls, or components.that are out of the design tolerance range, or are just marginal. It wouldn't be so bad of a problem if there were trimpots that the dealers could adjust to fine tune the range of motion to the widest range with lots of slow speed control. Unfortunately, that is not how they are made at this time. Right now, these OEM motors are like a box of chocolates: ya don't know whatcher gonna ge-et.

[ChimeraKennels]

You posted while I was editing my post. My main point isn't the leverage thing. I only mention that only because it was the only suggestion I have made here. My intention on this topic was not about making suggestions, but was to gather more information about motors. My reason for bringing this up prematurely (before I have a problem with my motor) is because I am reassembling the unit...and if I have a motor problem I don't want a lot of down time doing research about motors.

To be "point blank" and clear...my question is...if I have issues with my motor (since it is old) after reassembling the unit...could I expect a new 1/2 hp clutch motor with the low rpm speed (1725) and a small pulley to offer the same control I have with my old clutch motor?

[ChimeraKennels]

Before dissembling and transporting the unit home...when I tested my unit, I was able to go both fast or slow. I am only waiting on my table top now to be back into action. Everything else is done.

[Wizcrafts]

You posted while I was editing my post. My main point isn't the leverage thing. I only mention that only because it was the only suggestion I have made here. My intention on this topic was not about making suggestions, but was to gather more information about motors. My reason for bringing this up prematurely (before I have a problem with my motor) is because I am reassembling the unit...and if I have a motor problem I don't want a lot of down time doing research about motors.

To be "point blank" and clear...my question is...if I have issues with my motor (since it is old) after reassembling the unit...could I expect a new 1/2 hp clutch motor with the low rpm speed (1725) and a small pulley to offer the same control I have with my old clutch motor?

You may or may not have to burn in a new clutch motor to get the same ease of control you have with the old motor. Some people sand the clutch disks, others may spray on a light lube, to help glaze the fresh surface. Eventually, the clutch will behave the way your old one does. Some clutch motors will feather smoothly right out of the box.

With a clutch motor you have an adjuster nut and bolt on the output end of the casing. Tightening it brings the clutch action on sooner and vice-versa. You can back off the bolt to have more free play before the clutch engages. As the clutch wears in, you can screw in the adjuster bolt to compensate.

[Wizcrafts]

I am tired of discussing motors for now. Let's not worry about what-ifs, until they actually occur. Get to know your motor and machine and learn to sew well with it. Get the knots in the middle and keep the right distance from the edges.

If the motor you got with your Pfaff has not been over-used, or abused, it may have years of life in it. If it was good enough for the original owner, who almost cried when he sold it to you, it will be good enough for you.

[Trox]

Hi all,

We should not be afraid to give some constructional critics of the equipment. The Chinese will not use one dollar more to improve their motors, if they do not have to. Sewing machine shops in Norway do not sell their machine with low priced motors. Very much of the sewing experience is related to the motor. Most of the Dürkopp Adler’s sold here has Efka DC stop motors with pneumatic fixing, backtacking, foot lift and position. Sewing on them is a dream, but any sewing machine would be with this setup. (Almost). If I was, a dealer I would at least offered the 441 clone with a choice of a professional motor; like the Ho sing, Efka, Seiko and more. It deserves and needs it.

I am able to stop my brushless cobra motor on a quarter of a stitch, but after I changed it over to an other machine, I got an issue with it. It sews a couple of extra stitches after the power is shut of. I have checked my connections, it is all like before this issue started. Is this also related to this light switch? Some ideas?

I see that Greg from Keystone offers a nice selection of motor for his machines. I want to ask him about the Ho sing motor that costs 475 $, how does this compare to the Efka 1550, or to the older Dc 1600?

A strong position motor do not need a speed reducer on the 441, you will save some dollar there. A low-priced servo and a speed reducer will be about 300 $, the Ho Sing is 475 $, that is only 175 $ more. The Ho Sing is a professional motor with a good reputation. Gregg if you follow this tread, please give us your opinion on this.

Thanks

I too has been “lucky” with a clutch motor, my new 441 clone comes with an ISM 600 Watt clutch motor and no reducer. I have no problem sewing thick leather slow on it. I was planning to change it. Only a pro position motor will work better than this.

Trox

[ChimeraKennels]

I am tired of discussing motors for now. Let's not worry about what-ifs, until they actually occur. Get to know your motor and machine and learn to sew well with it. Get the knots in the middle and keep the right distance from the edges.

If the motor you got with your Pfaff has not been over-used, or abused, it may have years of life in it. If it was good enough for the original owner, who almost cried when he sold it to you, it will be good enough for you.

I have a few issues with it from time to time with my thickest stuff, but I don't know if it is a penetration issue...or if it is a tension issue on my thread...as the thread is getting torn up when I sew the thick stuff. I still have some learning to do. I thought I had resolved the issue...but no, I haven't. I think both my tensions may be too tight with the thicker thread, but before I loosened them both, I decided to remove my feed dog to dremel it a bit...as I noticed a few rough edges around the hole. I ordered a new feed dog from Bob today to replace this one...but for now, the dremel will suffice and I will give it a try again with the tensions eased up a bit. Will see if the 1/3rd hp motor will pull through for me then.

The reason I think the tension is too tight is I put a drop of oil on the old pressure plates and it ran fine for a while...but I guess enough thread ran through to "dry it out" and I started having some issues again.

[Northmount]

I have a few issues with it from time to time with my thickest stuff, but I don't know if it is a penetration issue...or if it is a tension issue on my thread...as the thread is getting torn up when I sew the thick stuff.

The reason I think the tension is too tight is I put a drop of oil on the old pressure plates and it ran fine for a while...but I guess enough thread ran through to "dry it out" and I started having some issues again.

Are you using lubricated thread? If not, try it. Oil on the tension plates was probably lubricating your thread. Lubricated thread makes it easier for the needle to punch through, and helps with pulling the thread up. There are some other posts on LW about lubricated thread.

CTG

[ChimeraKennels]

I don't think so. I ordered "138" thread in black and tan...but didn't specify if it was to be lubricated or not.

I just got done cleaning up the minute burrs on the feed dog (although most were on the top and not really where the thread would contact)...but that didn't help any. I put everything back together...ran the machine and it still broke.

It appears to get a lot of twists in it when it fails, but I can't tell if the twisting is the cause or if it is a secondary effect.

[ChimeraKennels]

It is "Bonded Nylon" and is Pre-lubricated. I am going to sew a bit with the cover plate open to see if I can see what is going on as the needle thread goes around the bobbin case. I wonder if the tip of the hook is catching the thicker thread and nicking away at it? I am open to suggestions...but being this is a "motor thread"...I don't want to detract from this topic any further. I will put it on one of my other topics about the machine. Thanks.

Edited June 8, 2012 by ChimeraKennels

[Les No6]

Hi chimera

Single phase (domestic electrical supply) Clutch motors forsewing machines come in 2 pole and 4 pole high and low speed, the 4 pole hashalf the speed and twice the torque (shaft power=speed x torque), same withgearing you can trade speed for torque minus losses of course and you can gethigher gear ratios by using a counter shaft but at the expense of greaterlosses. Would a 1/2hp motor give you more control no, firstly your control inputis the clutch (torque converter) so your control depends on this component notthe motor, secondly, the motors are constant speed motors the torque orstrength as you see it is load dependant greater load greater the torque untilmaximum load at which point the motor stalls and torque falls to startingtorque (very little). Thirdly a 1/2 hp Chinese manufactured motor is more like a1/4hp motor from a quality manufacture like Brook Compton. As you can see youare not going to get more torque and may get a lower power motor. Clutch motorsare old simple technology efficient reliable, and dos everything a servo canwith a little skill, like everything, the main difference between clutch motorsis quality of manufacture, and quality cost but operates correctly last longer depreciatesless and much cheaper in the long run. Don’t worry about energy use when notusing the machine, as stated earlier torque is load dependant and the load onthe motor is just friction in the bearings heat losses are minimal as theresnot much current running through the windings so the motor draws little power(power=speedxtorque), they have high start up currents though so don’t turn offand on a lot.

A servo motor or more accurately servo controlled motor isan electronically controlled motor using feedback the purpose is to replacelarge heavy expensive motors with cheapersmaller lighter alternatives, increase efficiency by carrying out torque conversions electronically, eliminating mechanicaltorque converters i.e. gears pulleys counter shafts and torque smoothing flywheels with their associated losses. The servo controller is the importantclever bit NOT the motor, there are many cheap imports that claim to be servomotors but they are not (lack of feedback controller) these can beeasily identified by the use of oversized motors and gearing and or countershafts these are merely dc motors supplied via a variable current regulator sincetorque of a dc motor is directly proportional to input current its nothing morethan an electronic clutch and will not perform any better than a mechanicalclutch but at reduced efficiency. See attached video note the smaller cheepmotor outperforming the large motor which has a gear box incorporated, (don’t listento what the guys saying hes selling something!) Guess which is a real servo. With the benefit ofa university education in engineering I find the claims made by sellers of theseChinese so called servos highly dubious!

As to the maximum speed of your machine a google search shouldget you the manual and it will be in there you don’t want to go more than ¾ ofthat.

The problem with your machine sounds like a tension problemthe twist in the thread is usually caused by the tension being too tight itpushes the twist farther up the thread until it forms a knot. Start with theshuttle tension pull the thread from the shuttle it should pull out easy and smoothif it tends to judder the problems the bobbin, the tension in the shuttleshould be quite light. The problem couldalso be due to you trying to sew material too heavy for your machine foot liftis no measure of how heavy the machine will sew, to check the maximum weight itcan handle turn the fly wheel until the needle reaches its lowest point look atthe thread groove on the needle the top of this groove to needle plate is the absolutemaximum thickness it will handle, also check the needle size it may be toosmall for the gage of thread . Its good practice to oil all moving parts on asewing machine and the thread is a moving part use a light mineral oil, (babyoil is high grade mineral oil) it also keeps your needle and shuttle welloiled. Also check for burs on the shuttle and needle plate. Nylon not nicethread, try linen or polyester cotton.

[ChimeraKennels]

Thanks for the VERY detailed reply.