Casing leather

[bruce johnson]

Ray,

There are folks here who know a whole lot more about leather chemicals than me. I think Lexol is a sulphonated neatsfoot oil. I am not sure if it comes under other trade names that might be available there or not. I would anticipate the Listerine called for in the original mix is the plain old brownish looking stuff from the old days. I am also thinking eucalyptus oil, tea tree, or some of the other reported natural antifungals might be fine. I have heard that one of these is the antifungal in ProCarve. Who knows.

Regarding the saddle soap. Apparently in the good old days of the old soak until drowned leathers, saddle soap was purchased in buckets by some shops. They soaped leather to block out pieces. They soaked it and soaped it again to swivelkinfe and tool it. The problem I have with it is that it resists dye somewhat. I have had dye roll off the lettering then soak right in an inch from where you laid it, black can become violet, etc. I don't use it anymore for something I am dyeing, and really haven't used it since I started the other mix.

As far as burnishing effects you can get a somewhat similar effect from antiques and HiLiters too. I have been using a diluted HiLiter to bring out dec cuts and deeper lines.

[Leerwerker]

I asked about the new Eco-Flo version of Pro - Carve: it wets difficult leather better and has the big advantage that it increases the amount of burnishing you get when tooling.

Me and a friend had two beautiful double shoulders we selected to tool on. (part of mine turned into the anatomy study). When he cased his by wiping with a sponge, one part of the leather did not immedialtely soak up the water! On the spur of the moment, he added a shaving of saddle soap to the water and wiped again. Instant success! The leather soaked the water up evenly as the other parts did and all went well...

I'm like Troy I've tried the Pro-Carve and couldn't tell a difference, maybe there's a reason it has no list of ingredients on the bottle because it sure smells and feels like plain old dish soap and water. I've used Shoe Stretch before only to find out I'd paid someone fifteen dollars a gallon to pre-mix alcohol and water for me and I've questioned whether the Pro-Carve solution is a pre-mixed potion of common household products. If someone knows what it's actually made of it would be interesting to find out, but the fact that it has no list of ingredients even for medical purposes is questionable.

[UKRay]

Okay guys - I think I'm almost up to speed on this thing now. I'm going to try to re-cap:

The general opinion is that leather production techniques have changed a lot in the past fifty odd years. So much so, that many of the old ways of preparing leather for handwork are now virtually obsolete. Leather is now softer and easier to work with and it doesn't seem to require the same amount of soaking that old style, harder leathers did. - So far so good!

As I see it, you need to select the type of casing you are going to do based on the job in hand.

If you want to make masks and much moulded things then a good long dunking (possibly in warm water) is important as the leather needs to become really malleable.

If you want to emboss leather then a quick dunk followed by repeated light spraying of water on the surface of the leather will keep it workable.

If you are working on a large project then find a piece of glass or plexiglass to put over your work when you are not actually embossing or carving. This will seal in the moisture. You will still need to spray or sponge water onto the edges to keep them damp.

If you are carving leather then a quick dunk in ordinary water followed by a water spray works fine for most people.

Carving 'solutions' like Pro-Carve are an individual thing. General opinion seems to be that Pro-Carve's main function is keeping fungus away and smelling nice.

But:

Some claim that Pro-Carve improves the finished appearance of their work, others can't see any difference at all.

Some claim that Pro-Carve makes carving easier, others say they don't notice any difference at all.

I guess you will just have to try it for yourself and make your own decision here.

With only one report on Eco-Flo's version of Pro-Carve I don't feel we have enough information to draw any conclusions about this product yet.

Saddle soap in your casing water can be good if used sparingly - too much can cause problems

The leather 'alchemists' will doubtless keep us informed on their progress... I want to find out more about the listerine thing - where can Thymol or Phenol be purchased? Are the 'natural' alternatives like tea tree oil really up to the job?

I guess the biggest thing to come out of this topic is that the old books may need to be changed next time they are re-printed - can someone mention this to Tandy et al please?

[Art]

Hi Ray,

Thymol you can get from a beekeepers supply. Phenol in the amounts you would need can be ordered from the Druggist, Chemist, Pharmacy or whatever, maybe they can order the Thymol too.

Art

Okay guys - I think I'm almost up to speed on this thing now. I'm going to try to re-cap:

The leather 'alchemists' will doubtless keep us informed on their progress... I want to find out more about the listerine thing - where can Thymol or Phenol be purchased? Are the 'natural' alternatives like tea tree oil really up to the job?

I guess the biggest thing to come out of this topic is that the old books may need to be changed next time they are re-printed - can someone mention this to Tandy et al please?

[whinewine]

A]I can see how the baby shampoo would act as a surfactant - but almost any liquid soap would do the same thing - come to that, so would most fabric softeners and they smell nice too (did you get that, Marlon? <grin!>). I may be wrong, but surely a surfactant will make the water more 'slippery' - in other words it will help 'slide' the water between the fibres of the leather and will help to keep it there for a longer period of time -is this what you are trying to achieve?

B]Lexol is a problem substance as far as I am concerned simply because I have never seen it in the UK. Would anything else work as well for those of us who don't have access to it?

C]I fill a sink with warm to hot water and submerge the leather until no more bubbles are rising. I need the leather really wet for molding and when it dries the leather goes hard. This method would not be really suitable for most stamping and carving projects unless you wanted the leather to be stiff for the finished product.

So it seems that the project dictates how you case your leather - anyone got any thoughts on that?

Ray: A 'surfactant' is any substance that breaks the tension of water... it's really a detergent, & most (if not all) 'detergents' are NOT soap. If anyone has developed their own pictures, color slides, b&w film & printed their own pics, they've used Kodak Photo-Flo (or eqivalent). It allows the water to run off the film in sheets, rather than run off in (film spotting) beads, because it breaks the water's surface tension. Just a few drops of Photo-Flo will work. I used to develop my own stuff & I occasionally will use a few drops of what I have left in making up my homemade casing solution.

B] I'm sure any water soluable oil that won't stain veg-tan leather would work in place of lexol.

C] Wet/wet/wet is for items to be molded. For carving and/or stamping, I'll either spray or wipe with a sponge & when the color returns to normal & still feels cool on my cheek, I'll begin carving or stamping.

[Don101]

Interesting subject, I didnt even know what casing was before i joined this forum,

ofcourse i was wetting my leather dont get me wrong but it all seems a bit to mutch like rocket science to me or a good way to make money selling a product that you dont really need,

ive been doing for years basically the same thing when i want to carve or stamp, i hold the leather under running water for a few mins then set it aside for a couple of hours till its nearly dry and cold to touch, no soaps chemicals or mouthwash,(LOL)

although im going to give the spray bottle a try out and see if it works for me, Don

[UKRay]

Many thanks for putting me straight, WhineWine. I am perfectly happy to accept that surfactant is NOT soap or vice versa - and although it didn't sound like it, what I was actually imagining was the stuff in a Fairy Liquid bottle on my draining board - which, to my delight, just happens to be a detergent!

Wanna give me some more clues on water soluble oils? I'm not sure I know any...

Don, before I started this thread I used to get a nice big sponge and slop room temperature water over my leather with enthusiasm. I had never heard of Pro-Carve and the idea of mixing 'bathroom ingredients' with my casing water was completely alien to me. Now I have a spray bottle on my bench - I tried it tonight guys and it works like a dream, so thanks for that - warm water in the sponge bowl and I'm learning more chemistry than I knew existed. Ain't life grand!

I love this forum.

[whinewine]

Ray,

I'm not a chemist, but perhaps you need to google 'water soluable oils' & see what comes up. I know that "water & oil don't mix", but there are such things as water soluable oils. You may need to contact chemical forums, or even contact the lexol people themselves to see if it is available in the UK.

Mostly I've used plain water to case my stuff, but I also use a homemade solution in a sprayer (I got the formula here on LWnet, btw) & I also use procarve & also the ecoflo spray version... whatever happens to be within reach. A lot depends upon whether plain water works best or the sprayer works best. Different leathers work better with different products sometimes. I know a particular Tandy store that uses nothing but plain water in a sprayer & I myself was taught to use only plain water applied with a sponge (but that was 35++ years ago, too- yet that still applies today)

Bottom line, find what works best for you... If you can carve well with a particular set of parameters, then that's what you need to use- if not, try to find what does work.

russ

[Rawhide]

Bottom line, find what works best for you... If you can carve well with a particular set of parameters, then that's what you need to use- if not, try to find what does work.

russ

Ray you can also try this...take a farily large scrap piece and divide it with a marker into fourths dunk one end (one fourth) in warm water. Use a sponge to wet one fourth with plain water, a spray bottle with plain water, and a solution mix (your choice) on the last fourth, let them get to the point of carving and run your swivel knife through them all in a straight line without stopping. See which one has the least resistance. Then try some of your favorite stamps and see which burnish better.

Happy carving.

Marlon

[Shelly]

OK - I've read this entire thread with interest - I personally will dunk large pieces in a tub of hot water, but will be sure it's not soaked thru, take it to the stamp rock, turn over and cover until I'm ready to start on it. I've used pro-carve, and now don't, because of the cost and because I couldn't really tell much difference, and I felt that my tools didn't stay where I put them when stamping (that was mentioned, I think)

I am interested in knowing the breakdown on the mix of Lexol, water, and brown listerine - how much of each in the spray bottle (my bottle is a 'industrial type' from Wally-world - sprays a fine mist when the trigger is depressed as well as continuing this mist as it is released). I think it holds a qt...sort of sounds like mixing up salad dressing...I have a bottle of Lexol, and have two different floral saddles that I am interested in trying this out on...!

[barra]

Here is the formula as previously posted

1/2 cup Lexol

1-1/2 Cups distilled or filtered water

1 tablespoon Johnson's No More Tears Baby Shampoo

1 tablespoon Listerine

Barra

[tonyc1]

Here is the formula as previously posted

1/2 cup Lexol

1-1/2 Cups distilled or filtered water

1 tablespoon Johnson's No More Tears Baby Shampoo

1 tablespoon Listerine

Barra

Barra, can we get Lexol here in Aus?

Tony.

[barra]

Tony. Yes it is available in Australia. Try your local saddleries or places that specialise in car care products, eg:

http://www.carcareproducts.com.au/brands/lexol

P.S. Forgot to mention, look for the brown bottle as that is the conditioner and not the cleaner in the orange bottle.

Barra

Edited July 25, 2008 by barra

[tonyc1]

Tony. Yes it is available in Australia. Try your local saddleries or places that specialise in car care products, eg:

http://www.carcareproducts.com.au/brands/lexol

P.S. Forgot to mention, look for the brown bottle as that is the conditioner and not the cleaner in the orange bottle.

Barra

Thanks, Barra!

[UKRay]

Slipping tools: Has anyone else experienced this when using Pro-Carve? It sounds a tad dangerous to me.

Listerine appears to have some other uses, see: http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g1472...adero_Cuba.html

Suppliers List: It would be very helpful if those who are using esoteric chemicals and specific products could tell others where to obtain them and a rough idea of cost. I have started the ball rolling with a brief list of UK suppliers below - could those of you from around the world help out here?

Thanks for the Thymol tip-off Art!

UK people can get Thymol from:

Paynes Bee Farm Ltd, Bentley Cottage, Wickham Hill, Hassocks, West Sussex. BN6 9NP

www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk

Tel: 01273 843388

Price: £4.95 per 100gms

I have also found a UK based supplier for Lexol conditioner for anyone who fancies a bit of leather alchemy - I just ordered mine!

www.motorgeek.co.uk/lexol-leather-cleaner-p-121.html at £9.99 per 500ml

Edited July 25, 2008 by UKRay

[Corvus]

This is a very interesting thread! I don't have much to add, I use a sponge and water at the moment and don't have a problem with that but don't have anything to compare it too.

All Essential Oils have antiseptic properties so they will probably all be antifungal to some extent but Rosemary Oil and/or Tea Tree would be the ones to select for this - just a few drops in the water you use should work fine.

I never understood the term 'casing' but recently read something that explained that when you wet leather the water mixes with the proteins in the leather to effectively form a glue and this is why the impressions we make are retained. This made me think that 'casing' might be a bastardisation of 'casein'. Presumably anything you can add to your water to improve the glue mix might give you better results. Milk is the obvious one but somehow I don't fancy it!

With regards to water soluable oil, this put me in mind of Aqueous Cream which is a pure cream made of water and petroleum oil, it should be fine on leather as it is meant to go on living skin to soften it. You can get it from most Chemists - a big tub costs a few quid. A small amount of this in water would be an interesting experiment. Any amount of oil should stop the leather drying as quickly and also as the friction between the leather and tools would be reduced you may well see clearer impressions and find it easier to work but too much could be hazardous I guess.

Only the info about essential oils is factual, the rest of this post is spectulation based on a fondness for kitchen chemistry experiments so approach with caution!

[ClayB]

I was asked to put my comments in on this thread so here goes. There have been a lot of good responses already and I really dont feel I have anything special to add.

I have been using a spray bottle on projects when the leather is up to about 6 ounce. I put a little pro carve in the bottle, just because I got a couple bottles of it in a box full of stuff when a local leather store went out of business. I dont know that it makes any difference or not. I guess I'll find out when it's gone. I haven't had any trouble with my tools not staying put (yet) On heavier leather for belts or saddle skirting, I still dunk it under water and then bag it and put it in the fridge over night to let the water even out all the way through. Not sure if that is necessary these days or not, but that's how I have always done it. If I was giving advice to someone new, I'd say quick case your leather with plain old water and see how it works. If it doesn't carve well, or give you decent impressions, first thing I would wonder is if the moisture content is right. If you decide the moisture level is right, and the leather doesn't work like I want, my next move would be to bag it and let it sweat awhile. If that didn't help, then I'd start trying the different things people add to their solutions. I dont think any one solution is going to be right for everyone. You have to take in to account the different tanning processes, what you are going to do with the leather (carve, stamp, mold etc.) There are also differences in the climate where we all live (heat, humidity etc.) and there can be a big difference in the water we use.

It's great to be able to hear what works for each of us but when it comes down to it, I think it's going to be a little different for each of us. Just like learning how much moisture it takes for your leather to carve just right, it might take some experimenting to see just what casing solution might work best for you.

[charley]

This is a great thread with a lot of really good information. I like to read about what works for different people.

I agree that we must try things to find, "what works for us", because I wholly expect that to be different based on area water supplies, leather source, and carving habits (e.g., types of projects, how you "back" your leather for carving, whether you want to wait overnight, etc.) (Of course, some principles might be universal, but we may perceive the results differently. ;-))

For example, water quality ?might? be a big factor, so you might need to change casing solutions to cope. I'm lucky enough to be in the Colorado front range, with some of the softest water in the USA (e.g., 22 ppm Ca/Mg), but areas like Phoenix or Los Angelos tend to have very hard water (upwards of 300-400 ppm Ca/Mg). Marine and reef aquaria keepers follow chemistry like that closely, because for their chemistry, it's a huge issue. I'd assume that makes a big difference for leather tooling, but I haven't done any controlled experiments (now I'm thinking about doing those).

However, I have done controlled experiments with/without Dawn dish detergent, and found that it does (for me) make swivel knife work easier, and permit a longer tooling time before drying, without any noticeable coloration change once the leather dried (I'm using clear Dawn Lemon-scented Dish Detergent).

I haven't yet played with the full cocktail of make-your-own solution including Lexol (I learned about it from Bruce Johnson at the last Sheridan), but I intend to try it (I expect it to be a superior casing solution to what I've been using).

Something that I've not seen mentioned: I took a class from Paul Burnett (the first Al Stohlman award winner, <http://paintingcow.com/>), and in his early years he was known for his belts. In a belt class with Paul Burnett, people started casing the leather before class, and he had to stop them: He said, "Belt stamping isn't like figure carving, and you don't case the same."

In essence, we'd start with dry leather, and case the top (grain side) heavily. The goal was to case halfway through the leather. Because the back was still "dry", it wouldn't stretch/deform during the stamping, and we didn't need to reinforce the back during stamping. Also, the dry leather at half-way through would "stop" the stamp (because stamping too deeply on a belt would weaken the belt - Paul wanted stamping to half of leather depth at the most).

I've found his lesson very useful and effective, and that's what I follow now. So, I actually (explicitly) case several different ways:

• - Figure carving - (or my best work), case heavily, let rest overnight (in a bag usually in the refrigerator), tool after returns to color the next day
  
• - Moulding - case with warmer water (makes it harder when dry), mould while soaked, tool when color lightens, but never re-wet
  
• - Belts - (a-la-Paul Burnett) - Quick-case the top heavily to half way through the leather, when the top returns to color, tool immediately (you don't want to keep re-wetting because you never want to wet the back half)
  
• - Quick-Case - When I want to "get to work" without waiting (e.g., to try things out, or if I don't want to wait overnight), I *always* case the back (flesh side) first and very heavily, and the front (grain) side very lightly. Then I don't have to wait long before the front is ready to tool, and the wet back gives me a longer "golden carving" period to work (because it continues to automatically case from back-to-front). (Works better on heavier leather, back/front casing doesn't matter much for 2oz leather.)
  

Also, in general, I ascribe to the Peter Main approach that Rawhide/Marlon mentioned (e.g., never re-wet the area being carved, but frequently dampen the edges while working).

It's true that there are some additional subtleties in these (e.g., what's "warmer" mean, what chemistry to use for casing), but after a while these things seem very intuitive/obvious/simple to me (although that still leaves a lot of room for experimentation, and I'm still changing what I do).

--charley

[UKRay]

'Picking the bones' out of the last few posts isn't going to be easy but I'll do my best:

Corvus said: "All Essential Oils have antiseptic properties so they will probably all be antifungal to some extent but Rosemary Oil and/or Tea Tree would be the ones to select for this - just a few drops in the water you use should work fine."

This really does make perfect sense. I just tried three drops of tea tree oil in some warm water and gave it a quick whisk. It appeared to vanish so I can't envisage too many problems there. By the way, tea Tree Oil is a famous cure for foot fungus like athlete's foot so it could be perfect for mouldy leather. Obtainable at pretty nearly every good pharmacy worldwide these days - certainly the ones I have visited.

It is great to hear a fine craftsman like ClayB's common sense suggestions. His comment: "...I don't think any one solution is going to be right for everyone..." just about sums up this thread. I think we have given everyone plenty of food for thought and the tools to do some experimenting on their own.

I was interested to hear that different water types could affect casing. Is soft water better than hard? Does anyone have this kind of experience or knowledge. Do we get a different reaction from the leather if we use soft water?

Ph is something we haven't really touched too heavily on but my reading suggests that leather actually has a Ph of about 4. This is quite acid. Is the baby shampoo with its neutral Ph reducing this acidity and making the leather easier to carve? Has acidity got any bearing on usability?

Does anyone know the active ingredient in Dawn Lemon-scented Dish Detergent? Does it matter if all it does is act as a 'lubricant' / surfactant? Charley obviously derives some benefit from using Dawn and I feel sure others would enjoy finding out if they might do the same. I have looked all over the place but can't find it in the UK - anyone got any suggestions for an alternative?

One of the most interesting points to come out of Charley's contribution is the observation that we should case leather to different depths for different jobs and if we simply stamp leather we may not need to case right through the leather. In fact it may actually be detrimental to do so.

I can speak from personal experience here, and say, like most folk, that I've made leather too wet to work on occasion and, once or twice over the past thirty plus years, I've even put a sharp stamp almost right through the leather by mistake. I think Charley is right, we do need to watch depth as much as ingredients and application technique.

The big thing that has come out of this thread is that we all enjoy experimenting. I just hope that there are a few more ideas to come on this topic as it has opened up a whole new direction for me and made my leatherwork more enjoyable. Thank you all.

[barra]

I have read all of the posts and just for grins and giggles decided to play a bit. I took some scraps and tried different casing solutions from common household products. I also did a combination of long and quick case with all of my goops. With each combo I swivel knifed, bevelled and basket stamped.

1. Plain water. Worked fine. No difference in quick/long case. Swivel knife cutting was just what I'm used to as I traditionally just spray water or dunk and bag.

2. Hair conditioner. No difference in swivel cutting and no difference betwen long and quick case. There was however a noticeable difference in burnishing. When completely dry I then coated the swatch in a light coat of hair conditioner and let it soak in and dry. I then buffed which produced a super shine. As an added test I then oiled to see if there were any resist properties. The oil sat on the surface so I originally thought it was going to act as a resist. I then went for a coffee and when I came back the oil had soaked in evenly.

3. After reading all the posts about water additives like dish soap, pro carve and the lexol mix, I went in search of a cheap alternative. To me the cost of pro carve is prohibitive so have never tried it. I don't have a mould problem but added eucalyptus oil to water anyway. I usually wander around hardware stores and supermarkets looking at how I can adapt items to a leather application. Out of the toiletries and cleaning section of the supermarket sections. I got some baby shampoo and washing soda to soften my hard water (I'm yet to try the soda). The baby shampoo worked fine and did add to the burnishing effect but again there was no difference in long/quick case.

After thinking about the antiseptic properties of eucalyptus/tee tree oil etc I thought what type of product would have those ingredients and here is what I tried.

Wool wash

The brand was cheap as chips (couple of bucks for a 1.25lt bottle), biodegradable, neutral PH and has eucalypus oil. I then added a small amount to both a bowl of water and my 1 litre pump up sprayer and tried both the dunk and spray methods. At the amount I used this bottle will last a long time.

Yet again no difference in long/quick case. I think swivel knife cutting was easier but maybe I convinced myself it was. The biggest difference was that it definately improved burnishing (markedly so).

Barra

[Johanna]

My first husband was a carver, and he liked plain water in a spray bottle. When we moved to Georgia, where the air is more damp (mold!) he would put a few drops of baby shampoo in the water. He never dunked anything, never refrigerated any leather, nor did he wrap it in plastic if he was called away. He would just mist it again. He said no two hides were the same, and that you just got a feel for what you needed to do.

When I worked at Tandy and gave classes, I issued sponges to wet the leather. Cub Scouts armed with spray bottles are distracting. I knew an expert carver in Georgia who echoed Paul Burnett's theory of "don't wet it all the way through". His shop was outdoors, and he refrigerated wet leather, probably to keep down any mold. He used to tell people that if you wet the leather too much it would be too mushy to hold good impressions. He has passed on now, but I wish he were here to give his observations to this thread.

I also had people come to the Tandy and complain about the leather not taking their stamps well and found out they didn't know you had to wet the leather first. There were days it was hard to keep a straight face. I met a man who bought distilled water to case with because his well water would discolor the leather, and it wouldn't dye evenly. I met another man who cased leather with, and I am not making this up- Diet Coke.

There were many discussions around the back table in the Tandy on how to "properly" case leather. Some of it was akin to "bury the dead cat in a circle and walk around it counter-clockwise a dozen times". Here are the variables as I see them:

1. The leather you are using

2. The water you have available

3. Whether you are molding and tooling, or just tooling

4. The moisture content of your shop environment

5. How quickly or slowly you will work the piece

6. The way you were originally taught

Great conversation, folks. Disclaimer- I can't carve a turkey, let alone a piece of leather. All I know is from personal observation and discussions like this.

Johanna

[Rawhide]

I use distilled water as well because I have well water too. I figure the with the distilled, there's no chance of the water reacting with tannins or such and fouling the project.

Marlon.

[skipj]

I have a question re: Listerine. Are we talking about Listerine mouth wash, or Lysol. I guess I got courious when brown Listerine was mentioned. I haven't seen brown Listerine but have seen brown Lysol.

SkipJ

[Rawhide]

I have a question re: Listerine. Are we talking about Listerine mouth wash, or Lysol. I guess I got courious when brown Listerine was mentioned. I haven't seen brown Listerine but have seen brown Lysol.

SkipJ

It's the original formula of listerine. It's a brownish/gold color.

[skipj]

Ok thanks,

SkipJ