The Dreaded Timing Issue

[Tree Reaper]

I had a thread get jammed in the bobbin and I think the timing might now be out of whack.

The two pictures show the thread single and then with the arrow back stitched.

The single forward stitch looks good but when back stitched it isn't stitching in the same holes which leads me to think the timing might be out.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Kevin.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Tree Reaper

[DoubleC]

Kevin I wish I could help...I know Singers and only the old ones at that. They don't have issues like this. At the risk of sounding stupid, did you check to make sure your needle didn't get bent?

[Tree Reaper]

Needle is good but I have to check the needle to shuttle.

First comes the shuttle adjustment, I want to check the timing first.

Here are a couple of pictures of the shuttle...

There is an adjustment screw (#2) but I can't seem to locate it.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Tree Reaper

[busted]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Try a piece of scrap and sew some on it to get everything working correctly again. And check the distance from the needle to the end of the hook on the up stroke just a little over the width of the thread should be about right. The hook should be just north of the needle eye.

I had a thread get jammed in the bobbin and I think the timing might now be out of whack.

The two pictures show the thread single and then with the arrow back stitched.

The single forward stitch looks good but when back stitched it isn't stitching in the same holes which leads me to think the timing might be out.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Kevin.

Edited June 25, 2012 by busted

[Tree Reaper]

I ran some stitches on a piece of scrap and the back stitch isn't hitting in the same holes.

[busted]

OK, it does looks like the timing is out of wack.. What is the make of your machine? The timing isn't that hard to fix. What ever your manual instructs you to do that is where I would go to. I have my own method and it might not be to everyones liking. It should take about 10 or 15 minutes to fix. Good luck.

I ran some stitches on a piece of scrap and the back stitch isn't hitting in the same holes.

[Northmount]

1340590018[/url]' post='253980']

I ran some stitches on a piece of scrap and the back stitch isn't hitting in the same holes.

This isn't needle, hook, shuttle timing. It is needle and foot, feed related. So don't fix what ain't broke. Look at what positions the feed.

CTG

[mogwild]

OK, it does looks like the timing is out of wack.. What is the make of your machine? The timing isn't that hard to fix. What ever your manual instructs you to do that is where I would go to. I have my own method and it might not be to everyones liking. It should take about 10 or 15 minutes to fix. Good luck.

It says CB4500 in the title, so I'd have to guess its a Cowboy 4500, how about calling the manufacturer? I've read he's top notch and should be easy to reach.

[Tree Reaper]

It appears to be hit and miss, one time it misses the holes and the next it hits them.

I tend to think that it isn't timing and as CTG states and more to do with feed.

It just started doing this when the thread got caught in the shuttle and stopped the machine from sewing.

Kevin.

[Wizcrafts]

It appears to be hit and miss, one time it misses the holes and the next it hits them.

I tend to think that it isn't timing and as CTG states and more to do with feed.

It just started doing this when the thread got caught in the shuttle and stopped the machine from sewing.

Kevin.

Call Bob Kovar tomorrow. There are a couple of places that could have been affected by the thread jam, which control the backstitching. One involves removing the back cover and checking the big screw on the connecting rods towards the back. If the joining screw is loosened, the back stitches are thrown off.

Also, the positions of the alternating feet have a profound affect on the alignment of the stitches.These are adjusted in the back of the head, behind the outer foot. An Allen bolt locks the rod that changes the height of the inside foot, which also controls when that foot hits the material. If the foot hits before the needle, the work gets pushed toward you, instead of away from you. The inside foot should make contact just after the needle touches the surface.

Look carefully at the feet as you rotate the wheel towards you CCW. The inside foot should not hit the feed dog until the needle reaches it first. After the feeder moves all the way back, the outer foot should drop and the inner foot and needle should lift, pretty close to each outer. Raise the stitch lever to the top and see if the same holds true in reverse.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Wizcrafts

[Tree Reaper]

The four pictures below indicate the position of the needle and feet with the take up lever first at the top and second at the bottom going forward.

The third picture is with the take up lever at the top and the fourth is with the take up lever at the bottom in reverse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n57LdhQf_XA

Edited June 25, 2012 by Tree Reaper

[Wizcrafts]

It appears to me that the inside foot is on the feed dog before the needle. Use the appropriate Allen wrench to loosen the Allen head bolt on the crank rod behind the head. Rotate the wheel again to bring the needle down, until it reaches the hole in the feed dog. Make sure the inside foot is down all the way (use your fingers to move it down), then clamp the bolt tight.

If this doesn't fix it, the screw that holds the motion rods together, at the upper-rear of the machine may have been loosened by your jam.

[Tree Reaper]

Thanks Wiz, I was out of the house all day and Bob called but I missed his call.

I'll give him a call back tomorrow.

I'll have another quick look at it tonight but I'm too tired to turn any screws but I will get into it over the next day or two.

I just had a closer look at it again and it appears that the needle hits the hole at the same time the inner foot touches down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6B2RezQz8

Kevin.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Tree Reaper

[Tree Reaper]

Well, I was looking at the feed dog and it was below the throat plate so I pulled the race out and tried to raise it but I can only get 1mm maximum height before I run out of adjustment so now I'm thinking the feed dog got bent.

I'm guessing there should be at least 3mm or more of maximum height adjustment above the plate when it's raised above the plate.

It's close to 1.4mm now which is the recommended height so I'll give that a whirl.

I most likely need a new feed dog.

[Tree Reaper]

I just ran a stitch and a back stitch, looks like it's working again but I'll run some more scrap leather through it later.

[Wizcrafts]

Are you sure it is bent? Mine only protrudes a little over a silly millimeter. If it really is bent and if you got the blanket foot set with your machine, you can swap feed dogs until you get a replacement for the bent smooth one.

[Tree Reaper]

I can't say for sure Wiz without having another to compare it with but considering you seem to have the same clearance maybe it isn't bent and it just got forced down although the screw wasn't loose.

[Tree Reaper]

Well, that was short lived.

I ran a few more trials last night and every one failed on the back stitch.

Bob talked me through centering the feed dog and needle and that didn't help so he suggested I drop the feed dog to level with the throat plate and that didn't work.

I think he's at a loss for this failure and I haven't got a clue so I'm wondering what to do next?

Edited June 27, 2012 by Tree Reaper

[DoubleC]

I don't understand why it works sometimes and not others. But I don't know Jack about these new machines. I got my top thread caught in a wad down in with the bobbin thread and thought I'd never get it out, but it did, and went right back to working. How can they make something so simple really when you think about it so easy to mess up? Needle goes up and down, dogs move at the same time. If it was 75 years old Kevin I could help, but not one of these. All I can offer is IF IT'S BROKEN, FIX IT Thought maybe I could get that part of it out of the way for you. Maybe Wiz will have some more ideas. c

[Wizcrafts]

It is time to get out the schematics for your machine and compare notes. Do you have the exploded view and all the timing details on 8.5 x 11 pages?

[Tree Reaper]

No, I don't have that Wiz.

I ran 5 stitches in forward and reverse, measured both and the 5 forward stitches measure .820.

the 5 reverse stitches measure .912

That's a difference of .092., almost 3/32"difference.

Both separate stitches are neat and equal but are different in length.

It's like the machine is switching from 5 threads per inch to 6 threads per inch when switching between forward and reverse.

Do you think this might be a timing issue?

Kevin

[Wizcrafts]

No, this is a loose screw issue. Gotta eat dinner first. Go have a brewsky. I'll be back...

[CowboyBob]

Kevin,ok if you think about this in the beginning it was going short in reverse,then you make an adjustment & now it's too long?So what does that tell you?you adjusted it too far,you need to O out the stitch & adjust it back just alittle @ a time until it gets even.

Wiz,FYI Kevin was sewing some thin leather & I believe it got caught in the feed dog,then he tryed forcing the machine to run by pressing on the pedal trying to force the machine to run.I don't recall anyone doing this yet,but feel this is how he knocked the feed timing off.This is the first time this has ever happened it looks like he's getting close to getting it back were it should be.

Good Night all

Bob

[Tree Reaper]

That's pretty much the way it happened Bob although I didn't adjust the stitch length, it was still set the way I got it and was working fine.

It must have wandered on it's own.

Anyway it's all part of owning a machine and I expect to service it now and then but the learning curve is a little steep out of the gate.

I guess I'm about to learn how to adjust the thread pitch.

Thanks for the help even though it wasn't resolved over the phone I did learn how to adjust the needle and feed dog.

Update

I was able to dial the needle holes back together and match the pitch between forward and reverse.

Everything looks good and I'll try a few more runs tomorrow.

Thanks very much for the assistance.

Kevin.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Tree Reaper

[Wizcrafts]

That's pretty much the way it happened Bob although I didn't adjust the stitch length, it was still set the way I got it and was working fine.

It must have wandered on it's own.

Anyway it's all part of owning a machine and I expect to service it now and then but the learning curve is a little steep out of the gate.

I guess I'm about to learn how to adjust the thread pitch.

Thanks for the help even though it wasn't resolved over the phone I did learn how to adjust the needle and feed dog.

Update

I was able to dial the needle holes back together and match the pitch between forward and reverse.

Everything looks good and I'll try a few more runs tomorrow.

Thanks very much for the assistance.

Kevin.

That's great news Kevin! Don't try to power through a jam next time. I usually hand-wheel backwards to try to clear a thread or material jam. Be sure you tighten those set screws as much as possible to keep her in time.