Yet Another "which Machine For Me?" Thread

[MonkRocker]

So I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a Techsew machine. This will be my first machine, since I positively abhor hand stitching.

I guess I'm looking for advice on the best overall machine for doing basically anything that's NOT horse tack.

I know, I know - grandiose ideas, but I have plans to do everything from wallets/belts/guitar straps on to chaps, saddlebags, vests, etc.

I am leaning heavily towards the 2700, but when I look at a ruler, 3/8" doesn't seem all that thick.

So what I'm wondering is...will something that handles thicker pieces be better? Can something that's made for heavier work handle things which are more "delicate" or does it not scale downwards well?

So yeah...advice? Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

[Northmount]

For the things you are interested in sewing, 3/8" should be good. That's 24 oz thickness, 3 layers of 8 oz. For many of these items you don't want a heavy thick seam anyhow. So for the most part, you should skive the edges to reduce the thickness of bulky seams. My 2700 does great. If you aren't building heavy harness tack, you don't need to go to larger machines.

If you have researched LW, then you already know there aren't many 'one size fits all machines' out there. Pay attention to comments by Wiz, Steve, Ronnie, Sewmun and the other top notch sewing machine people that support us.

You will probably settle in to using a couple different thread and needle sizes. And have to adjust tension for each and to accommodate different thicknesses.

CTG

[Wizcrafts]

So I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a Techsew machine ... I have plans to do everything from wallets/belts/guitar straps on to chaps, saddlebags, vests, etc.

I am leaning heavily towards the 2700, but when I look at a ruler, 3/8" doesn't seem all that thick.

So what I'm wondering is...will something that handles thicker pieces be better? Can something that's made for heavier work handle things which are more "delicate" or does it not scale downwards well?

So yeah...advice? Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

As long as the bottom piece is fairly stiff leather, and you choose the best thread and needle for the thickness, a 441 clone will dumb-down. However, if the bottom layer is soft it may get caught in the huge feed dog and even huger cutout in the standard throat plate. If this happens, you would have to remove the feed dog and replace the throat plate with a flat plate with a narrow slot.

Ideally, one should have more than one sewing machine for professional leather work. One would be used for work up to 5/16 inch, with #92 thread and a #20 needle, or #138 thread and a #22 needle. The other would be setup for work exceeding 5/16 inch, with #277 thread and a #25 needle.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Wizcrafts

[Techsew Ron]

So I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a Techsew machine. This will be my first machine, since I positively abhor hand stitching.

I guess I'm looking for advice on the best overall machine for doing basically anything that's NOT horse tack.

I know, I know - grandiose ideas, but I have plans to do everything from wallets/belts/guitar straps on to chaps, saddlebags, vests, etc.

I am leaning heavily towards the 2700, but when I look at a ruler, 3/8" doesn't seem all that thick.

So what I'm wondering is...will something that handles thicker pieces be better? Can something that's made for heavier work handle things which are more "delicate" or does it not scale downwards well?

So yeah...advice? Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

The Techsew 2700 is perfect for wallets, belts, guitar straps, chaps, saddlebags, vests and more. We have customers using the 2700 for all of these applications.

If you want to go for a heavier machine (ie- Techsew 4100 or Techsew 5100) they will both be capable of sewing all of the previously mentioned applications starting at about 6-7oz, plus a lot more (up to 7/8" total thickness).

Feel free to give us a call if you have any other questions.

Thanks,

Ron

[maciijazz]

I have been wanting to upgrade myself to using a machine, but I'm hesitant because I have absolutely no experience working a sewing machine. Would taking a sewing 101 class at a community college help in learning how to sew leather with a 441 clone type machine? Or can you just dive right in? I tried a Tippmann Boss, and sent it back when I ran into some issues with it. One issue that I have when sewing is that my product has 2-3 different thicknesses to go through. Thickest section is 3 layers of 8oz veg, and 2 layers of 4-5oz. Stone-oiled chap type leather. Thinnest section is 1 layer of 8oz. And 1 layer of 4oz. stone oiled. The boss was giving me issues in the changing of thicknesses. Was this me or did I need a better set-up like te 441 clones?

[Wizcrafts]

I have been wanting to upgrade myself to using a machine, but I'm hesitant because I have absolutely no experience working a sewing machine. Would taking a sewing 101 class at a community college help in learning how to sew leather with a 441 clone type machine? Or can you just dive right in? I tried a Tippmann Boss, and sent it back when I ran into some issues with it. One issue that I have when sewing is that my product has 2-3 different thicknesses to go through. Thickest section is 3 layers of 8oz veg, and 2 layers of 4-5oz. Stone-oiled chap type leather. Thinnest section is 1 layer of 8oz. And 1 layer of 4oz. stone oiled. The boss was giving me issues in the changing of thicknesses. Was this me or did I need a better set-up like te 441 clones?

I am going to answer the part of your question I made bold and italicized

Sewing 101 sounds to me like a beginners class about how to operate a flat bed home sewing machine.This would include threading the top and loading the bobbin, controlling the material and foot speed controller pedal, choosing and changing needles, threading the needle, changing stitch styles, length and width, and adjusting tensions and pressures for different thicknesses of cloth. They usually do these classes on a type of machine that is sold in places like Joann Fabrics, or a Singer store, which might weigh about 15 pounds and be made of white plastic, and which contains rows of push buttons to change stitch types.

The thread used in these machines is common cotton or polyester soft wound, with two or three thin strands twisted together, and is sewn using a needle size 11 to 14. The machine will typically have a capacity under the lowered foot of about 5/16 inch, maximum. The largest needle it will probably accept may be a #18 to #20. The thickest thread it can tension may be only #69 bonded nylon, if that. Finally, it will only have bottom feed.

If you try to sew 3 layers of leather on such a machine you will destroy it.

A 441 is a Juki cylinder arm machine with a sewing capacity of at least 3/4 inch of leather. It uses needles starting with size 19, going up to a #27 or larger. Their thread handling capacity ranges from #92 through #415. The motors are usually 3/4 horsepower servo motors, but sometimes they ship with clutch motors. All have speed reducers to triple the torque and reduce the top speed. A 441 clone is a copy of the Japanese Juki TSC 441, with improved specs. A 441 or clone has a walking foot triple feed system, where the needle, inside foot and feed dog all move in concert, while the outside foot lifts during needle's feed motion and lowers to secure the work between stitches. These machines are made of cast iron and steel and weigh over 125 pounds for just the head, not to mention the pedestal table, with its large motor, they are bolted onto.

It is highly unlikely that the people teaching a sewing 101 class anywhere have ever seen or even heard of a 441 or clone. They may have no knowledge or experience running a triple feed walking foot machine. The machines they use cannot sew 34 ounces of leather, no way, no how. Nor can they sew 3/8 inch. They cannot use thick bonded nylon or bonded polyester thread, like the common size 277 used by most of us with a 441 clone, which calls for a #25 leather point needle.

You are going to have to learn to sew with a 441 clone on your own, or attend a show where our dealers have their machines set up to demo, or travel to a dealer's store and receive some instructions there, on the machine you are purchasing. There are online videos on YouTube and some dealers supply a DVD that shows you how to thread, adjust, oil and change needles, bobbins and top thread, as well as how to adjust the top speed of the motor that shipped with it.

[Trox]

A Juki TSC 441 or a clone is a triple feed machine with excellent climbing abilities. The feet alternating height can be set from 4 to 8 mm, witch is the height the feet’s are alternating (lifting) over your work. It also has a very high foot lift; 1 1/8 “, making you able to lift your sewing foot clear of spots and buckles etc. I do not know the Boss, or how many mm 34 oz is (it is more than 8 mm, for sure), but it sounds like a big jump. I am sure the 441 is a better climber than the Boss is, however it sound like you must help every kind of machine over that big bump.

I have been wanting to upgrade myself to using a machine, but I'm hesitant because I have absolutely no experience working a sewing machine. Would taking a sewing 101 class at a community college help in learning how to sew leather with a 441 clone type machine? Or can you just dive right in? I tried a Tippmann Boss, and sent it back when I ran into some issues with it. One issue that I have when sewing is that my product has 2-3 different thicknesses to go through. Thickest section is 3 layers of 8oz veg, and 2 layers of 4-5oz. Stone-oiled chap type leather. Thinnest section is 1 layer of 8oz. And 1 layer of 4oz. stone oiled. The boss was giving me issues in the changing of thicknesses. Was this me or did I need a better set-up like te 441 clones?

[Techsew Ron]

Thickest section is 3 layers of 8oz veg, and 2 layers of 4-5oz. Stone-oiled chap type leather. Thinnest section is 1 layer of 8oz. And 1 layer of 4oz. stone oiled. The boss was giving me issues in the changing of thicknesses. Was this me or did I need a better set-up like te 441 clones?

You'll definitely need a 441 clone for what you're sewing. When changing thickness you just need to balance your upper and lower tension.

Ron

[maciijazz]

I am going to answer the part of your question I made bold and italicized

Sewing 101 sounds to me like a beginners class about how to operate a flat bed home sewing machine.This would include threading the top and loading the bobbin, controlling the material and foot speed controller pedal, choosing and changing needles, threading the needle, changing stitch styles, length and width, and adjusting tensions and pressures for different thicknesses of cloth. They usually do these classes on a type of machine that is sold in places like Joann Fabrics, or a Singer store, which might weigh about 15 pounds and be made of white plastic, and which contains rows of push buttons to change stitch types.

The thread used in these machines is common cotton or polyester soft wound, with two or three thin strands twisted together, and is sewn using a needle size 11 to 14. The machine will typically have a capacity under the lowered foot of about 5/16 inch, maximum. The largest needle it will probably accept may be a #18 to #20. The thickest thread it can tension may be only #69 bonded nylon, if that. Finally, it will only have bottom feed.

If you try to sew 3 layers of leather on such a machine you will destroy it.

A 441 is a Juki cylinder arm machine with a sewing capacity of at least 3/4 inch of leather. It uses needles starting with size 19, going up to a #27 or larger. Their thread handling capacity ranges from #92 through #415. The motors are usually 3/4 horsepower servo motors, but sometimes they ship with clutch motors. All have speed reducers to triple the torque and reduce the top speed. A 441 clone is a copy of the Japanese Juki TSC 441, with improved specs. A 441 or clone has a walking foot triple feed system, where the needle, inside foot and feed dog all move in concert, while the outside foot lifts during needle's feed motion and lowers to secure the work between stitches. These machines are made of cast iron and steel and weigh over 125 pounds for just the head, not to mention the pedestal table, with its large motor, they are bolted onto.

It is highly unlikely that the people teaching a sewing 101 class anywhere have ever seen or even heard of a 441 or clone. They may have no knowledge or experience running a triple feed walking foot machine. The machines they use cannot sew 34 ounces of leather, no way, no how. Nor can they sew 3/8 inch. They cannot use thick bonded nylon or bonded polyester thread, like the common size 277 used by most of us with a 441 clone, which calls for a #25 leather point needle.

You are going to have to learn to sew with a 441 clone on your own, or attend a show where our dealers have their machines set up to demo, or travel to a dealer's store and receive some instructions there, on the machine you are purchasing. There are online videos on YouTube and some dealers supply a DVD that shows you how to thread, adjust, oil and change needles, bobbins and top thread, as well as how to adjust the top speed of the motor that shipped with it.

Thanks Wiz! I've been reading a lot of threads and am a bit intimidated, but I guess I should approach it like I did the craft, get in it and learn. I only have 2 years of experience, but I have already made a small business of the hobby, pretty much earning back all that I had invested in the hobby through sales. But a machine of this caliber will require quite the investment. I'll definitely be looking into one of these bad boys when the time is right.

[Rayban]

I have been wanting to upgrade myself to using a machine, but I'm hesitant because I have absolutely no experience working a sewing machine. Would taking a sewing 101 class at a community college help in learning how to sew leather with a 441 clone type machine? Or can you just dive right in? I tried a Tippmann Boss, and sent it back when I ran into some issues with it. One issue that I have when sewing is that my product has 2-3 different thicknesses to go through. Thickest section is 3 layers of 8oz veg, and 2 layers of 4-5oz. Stone-oiled chap type leather. Thinnest section is 1 layer of 8oz. And 1 layer of 4oz. stone oiled. The boss was giving me issues in the changing of thicknesses. Was this me or did I need a better set-up like te 441 clones?

My brother has been a tailor for many years, and when he first saw my Cowboy 3500 (441 clone) he was wowed by the size of everything....thread, needles, the machine itself, etc. But after running a few stitch lines himself, he commented how mechanically similar it was to the machines he uses...just bigger.

So my point would be, if you did take a sewing 101 course, I believe it would greatly lessen the intimidation factor many experience when they first try using a 441 clone. Just my take on it.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Rayban

[Wizcrafts]

My brother has been a tailor for many years, and when he first saw my Cowboy 3500 (441 clone) he was wowed by the size of everything....thread, needles, the machine itself, etc. But after running a few stitch lines himself, he commented how mechanically similar it was to the machines he uses...just bigger.

So my point would be, if you did take a sewing 101 course, I believe it would greatly lessen the intimidation factor many experience when they first try using a 441 clone. Just my take on it.

My take on this is as follows:

A tailor's machine is almost always a class 15 machine. My Dad had a Singer 31-15. The local tailor shop in Flint uses a Singer 31-15. I started with a 96K40, but now have a 31-15 for alterations, plus an actual class 15: a Singer 15-91. Most tailoring machines use the class 15 horizontal axis oscillating shuttle, bobbin and bobbin case system, as opposed to the class 66 home machine - drop-in caseless bobbin system. A 441 and Adler 205 is based loosely on the class 15 setup, just bigger all around.

So, if a new sewer can learn on a mechanical Singer or equivalent class 15 machine, they will be closer to understanding how a 441 threads and operates than if they learn on a pushbutton, or touch pad class 66 machine (with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the the back of the cover ;-).

All of the above is just my opinion. Some of you guys and gals may know tailors who use a drop-in bobbin machine with a vertical axis bobbin system.

Back in the day, when I worked for an industrial sewing machine dealer, I was sent out to deliver some machines, which in one case involved demonstrating how to operate, adjust and maintain the machine to a first time sewer. I imagine that it would be possible to pay extra when buying a machine to have it delivered and demonstrated on your premises. Or, if a buyer could travel to the dealer's location, they could receive instructions before taking the machine home.

There are YouTube videos demonstrating various leather sewing machines, including most 441 clones. That's a lot cheaper than paying extra for personal delivery or pickup.

Check around your general area for other leather crafters who may own a 441 type machine. They may be willing to show you the ropes.