Defining Light, Medium, Heavy And Very Heavy

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

A question that is often asked is how heavy a leather a machine will sew and while this is not definitive and there are exceptions the following might help.

DBX1, DPX5, Domestic Needle: Light only - Garment leather with #69

DPX16, DPX16: Light to medium, generally to 7-8mm depending on the design of the machine with 138-207 thread

DDX1, 328: Medium Heavy. Depending on the machine 10-12mm. Anything up to #415

794, 7X3 Very Heavy. 18-22mm Any thread commercially available.

This is not meant to be definitive. There are all sorts of exceptions and I would appreciate feedback from our more knowledgeable members and dealers.

[amuckart]

Not that I'm in any way significantly knowledgeable, but having machines that take each of the systems below, I'd back your last two off a notch and add one on the end:

DDX1, 328: Medium. Up to 13mm depending on machine. Thread up to 415/6 cord

794, 7x3: Heavy. 5-21mm depending on needle and machine. Thread up to 514/8 cord

331: Very Heavy 5-25mm depending on needle and machine setup. Thread up to 514/8 cord

I'm fairly sure 1000 system needles fit in somewhere between 794 and 331 but I've never actually encountered any.

That's only for threaded needle machines. Needle & awl machines are another story entirely.

Edited July 1, 2012 by amuckart

[mogwild]

Funny you posted, I was just exploring needles the other day

Here's a picture I took.

On the left, a regular household machine needle (110/18) and on the right, the needle I took out of the Landis No1 we acquired to see what size it was, it...big.

[mogwild]

Funny you posted, I was just exploring needles the other day

Here's a picture I took.

On the left, a regular household machine needle (110/18) and on the right, the needle I took out of the Landis No1 we acquired to see what size it was, it's...big.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Thanks for that!

A lot depends on the machine. I brought in a Chinese machine that uses a DDX1 and was claimed to sew 18mm - the foot was cut away and the needle bar all but hit the leather - but I was able to sew 18mm!

Not that I'm in any way significantly knowledgeable, but having machines that take each of the systems below, I'd back your last two off a notch and add one on the end:

DDX1, 328: Medium. Up to 13mm depending on machine. Thread up to 415/6 cord

794, 7x3: Heavy. 5-21mm depending on needle and machine. Thread up to 514/8 cord

331: Very Heavy 5-25mm depending on needle and machine setup. Thread up to 514/8 cord

I'm fairly sure 1000 system needles fit in somewhere between 794 and 331 but I've never actually encountered any.

That's only for threaded needle machines. Needle & awl machines are another story entirely.

[amuckart]

.

On the left, a regular household machine needle (110/18) and on the right, the needle I took out of the Landis No1 we acquired to see what size it was, it...big.

Yup, that's a 331 system needle, same as is used in the Pearson No.6. They're scary big. There's enough groove for them to go through 25mm of leather and still throw a loop - and they used to come in sizes down to 160 which is awful thin for something that long!

[Art]

Note that the shank of the DB1 will fit in the thread groove of the 331.

Art

[Wizcrafts]

I used to have a hand operated sole stitcher, with a vertical up/down lever on the needlebar, that used a huge needle like the one pictured in this topic. It sewed with 6 cord pre-waxed linen thread, just along the edge, one stitch for each pull up/down on the lever. I wish I didn't give it away back then. It clamped onto the edge of a sewing machine table and stood upright, about 10 or so inches. I'm guessing that the needle was about 2.5 inches long and about 3/32 inch wide at the top.

[mogwild]

Yup, that's a 331 system needle, same as is used in the Pearson No.6. They're scary big. There's enough groove for them to go through 25mm of leather and still throw a loop - and they used to come in sizes down to 160 which is awful thin for something that long!

Still learning. None of the needles I got with mine have 3 digit numbers, they all say:

Landis 8

Landis 3

Landis 6

Landis 5

etc.

Some of them are pretty thin!

Edited July 2, 2012 by mogwild

[CowboyBob]

I used to have a hand operated sole stitcher, with a vertical up/down lever on the needlebar, that used a huge needle like the one pictured in this topic. It sewed with 6 cord pre-waxed linen thread, just along the edge, one stitch for each pull up/down on the lever. I wish I didn't give it away back then. It clamped onto the edge of a sewing machine table and stood upright, about 10 or so inches. I'm guessing that the needle was about 2.5 inches long and about 3/32 inch wide at the top.

Wiz,

Did it look like this?

Bob

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

A question that is often asked is how heavy a leather a machine will sew and while this is not definitive and there are exceptions the following might help.

DBX1, DPX5, Domestic Needle: Light only - Garment leather with #69

DPX16, DPX16: Light to medium, generally to 7-8mm depending on the design of the machine with 138-207 thread

DDX1, 328: Medium Heavy. Depending on the machine 10-12mm. Anything up to #415

794, 7X3 Very Heavy. 18-22mm Any thread commercially available.

This is not meant to be definitive. There are all sorts of exceptions and I would appreciate feedback from our more knowledgeable members and dealers.

Most needle systems come in a wide variety of sizes, or more specifically, thickness of the blade of the needle that is penetrating the work. For example, a very common needle system, 135X17 (designated above here as DPX16, a cut point needle designation) comes in sizes ranging from NM70//10~NM230/26. As you can see, this is a broad range for a very common needle.

Aside from thickness of needle, the thread, any size thread/needle, must be able to pass through the needle eye freely without getting choked off. This, again, does NOT designate the sewing machine capacity to sew through high piles of dense materials.

It's a common misconception to think that, because you put a thick needle into a machine that it will do heavier capacity work. Yes, you will get less bending, deflecting, and can sew heavier goods, no doubt. What you may not have is a machine with the drive it may need to do heavy webbing, slings, cargo nets, or the such, in some cases.

When we speak about drive, I like to use the analogy I would overhear my Dad tell people; drive is when you take a board in your hand, and I try to hammer a nail in by hand in the air; there is little drive behind it. Now, if I can take that same board, hammer and nail, and lay the board flat on concrete, there would be more drive behind it , and would be easier to nail into the board. This is drive, more or less, and all machines have more or less of it. It's a lot more than inserting a fat thick needle into a high speed garment machine and sewing auto trim with it.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Wizcrafts]

Wiz,

Did it look like this?

Bob

YES! Where did you get it? Does it sew and move the leather along on its own, or do you have to move the shoe manually?

[CowboyBob]

YES! Where did you get it? Does it sew and move the leather along on its own, or do you have to move the shoe manually?

It has a little arm that comes up & pulls the leather back.

[reddevil76]

It has a little arm that comes up & pulls the leather back.

is it for sale?

[Wizcrafts]

It has a little arm that comes up & pulls the leather back.

I guess the one I used to have was missing that feeder. I had to move the shoes manually to stitch them. PITA! It would be nice to have another one, but RedDevil76 may want it more than I do. I would rather have a curved needle Frobana.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

The technical term for that being "GRUNT"

There always exceptions and a good example is the Singer 42-5. It only takes a DPX16 but it will run any thread that will go through the needle as that was what it was designed for with that bloody great hand wheel. It will do things that would give a Chinese GC0302 a haemorrhage! And of course it can do all of that as a treadle (my favourite type of drive).

What I was trying to give is a general idea of machine capacity not a definitive one. In my business I seem to spend nearly as much time educating people about what the term "industrial" really means as I do selling machines, although I mostly find that spending the time to explain and referring them to sites like this actually sells me more machines. It is often better to give people the resources to confirm what you have just told them so they can see you are being honest. Those who do the research tend to give me the most repeat business!

I will have to do a test-to-destruction on a GC0302 type machine with a heavy weight flywheel and upgraded tension just to see how well they are built.

Most needle systems come in a wide variety of sizes, or more specifically, thickness of the blade of the needle that is penetrating the work. For example, a very common needle system, 135X17 (designated above here as DPX16, a cut point needle designation) comes in sizes ranging from NM70//10~NM230/26. As you can see, this is a broad range for a very common needle.

Aside from thickness of needle, the thread, any size thread/needle, must be able to pass through the needle eye freely without getting choked off. This, again, does NOT designate the sewing machine capacity to sew through high piles of dense materials.

It's a common misconception to think that, because you put a thick needle into a machine that it will do heavier capacity work. Yes, you will get less bending, deflecting, and can sew heavier goods, no doubt. What you may not have is a machine with the drive it may need to do heavy webbing, slings, cargo nets, or the such, in some cases.

When we speak about drive, I like to use the analogy I would overhear my Dad tell people; drive is when you take a board in your hand, and I try to hammer a nail in by hand in the air; there is little drive behind it. Now, if I can take that same board, hammer and nail, and lay the board flat on concrete, there would be more drive behind it , and would be easier to nail into the board. This is drive, more or less, and all machines have more or less of it. It's a lot more than inserting a fat thick needle into a high speed garment machine and sewing auto trim with it.